Steven H Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) There are a few ideas floating around the various threads regarding this, so thought a separate thread would be useful. I'm not sure if this was lost in the large number of threads on the go the other day or if it was simply ignored as it was a shite idea, but here's what I think (and I have wider ideas on how it ight work, but willl leave that for now, have discussed it on here before anyway). I would love to see 2 top leagues of 16 and a league of 12 (with a pyramid system below that) starting in time for season 2013/14. Simple really, but here's how it can bring about the balance between sporting integrity and commercialism that everyone seems to want. SPL/SFL1 promotion would continue as is for the coming season (1 up 1 down), and those finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th would make up SPFL1 with the other 11 SPL teams. Newco win SFL3 (because that's the ONLY league they should be allowed to play in, at best) and go into SPFL2 along with the bottom 5 SFL1 teams, the relegated SPL team and the other 9 SFL2 teams. Bottom SFL2 team this season coming drops to the new SPFL3 along with the 9 remaining SFL3 teams (and could even continue with the play-offs for this season too). Then SPFL take applications from others for the 2 slots created by league reconstruction. That reduces Newcos time out of the top league by a year, sporting integrity will have been salvaged (if it at all can be due to this saga), ALL clubs will benefit financially as Newco climb the leagues and gives us the kind of league reconstruction the majority of us are wanting. Teams coming with Newco from SFL3 to SPFL2 will benefit from 2 seasons of Newco, but they are the ones who need it the most anyway. That seems too neat and tidy for me. If you've kept up with what Im saying (even I struggled at times), can you spot any flaws in that scenario? Apart from the obvious that the SPL might not see 16 teams as financially viable of course. Haven't considered the distribution of TV/sponsorship/prize money, but Jaggernaut had some thoughts on that elsewhere on the forum, but a single financial structure for all leagues would be my recommendation. Edited June 25, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 A stumbling block that I'm not certain has been mentioned could be Irn Bru. Any intelligent reconstruction has surely got to involve one less league. I'm not too sure from a marketing point of view the SFL's current sponsors will be keen to fork out the same money to cover just two divisions. With that in mind they'd probably be happily compensated if there was higher profile TV coverage of any play offs. As to restructuring I think it's fair to say the vast majority of fans don't want four league games against the same team. At the same time SFL clubs' business models are based on 18/19 home games (league & league cup). A 16 team league comes up short in terms of home games but by returning the league cup to sections of four or five would compensate. It should go without saying to scrap the inane Challenge Cup and that creates more Saturday dates for the league cup mini leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p12tfc Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Personally I don't think 30 games a season is enough. If that were to work it would need a top 8 bottom 8 split to create probably 37 games. If you played all teams twice after the split that would be 44 games which I think is too many but they play 46 down south in championship and league 1 2 so it is dooable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 1 Big league of 42 play eaach other once winner takes all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWM Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) There isn't going to be expansion in the SPL, the SFA want a 10 team league, however that isn't a pressing issue just now. I think if you extend the top league too much you also dilute the quality and hurt the second tier in turn. People also forget that the reason for the leagues being made smaller were complaints of too many uncompetitive games. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Personally I would be happy enough with play-offs and thats it. I think the decision not to play the week before Christmas was very good too with an extra fixture between boxing day and new year. Attendances are usually pitiful in the week(s) before Christmas. I think the First should be expanded to 14. Its difficult for non full-time clubs to develop when they cannot establish themselves in the first in the 10 team format. If you went to 14 with 26 games then a split and playing each team home and away bringing it to 38 you also bring in an extra game's worth of revenue to clubs. The pyramid is difficult to sort out. The junior clubs simply aren't interested. Edited June 25, 2012 by MWM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 There isn't going to be expansion in the SPL, the SFA want a 10 team league, however that isn't a pressing issue just now. I think if you extend the top league too much you also dilute the quality and hurt the second tier in turn. People also forget that the reason for the leagues being made smaller were complaints of too many uncompetitive games. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Personally I would be happy enough with play-offs and thats it. I think the decision not to play the week before Christmas was very good too with an extra fixture between boxing day and new year. Attendances are usually pitiful in the week(s) before Christmas. I think the First should be expanded to 14. Its difficult for non full-time clubs to develop when they cannot establish themselves in the first in the 10 team format. If you went to 14 with 26 games then a split and playing each team home and away bringing it to 38 you also bring in an extra game's worth of revenue to clubs. The pyramid is difficult to sort out. The junior clubs simply aren't interested. I'm not sure I agree with your point about larger leagues leading to more meaningless games. In a larger league the top and bottom teams will probably still gain as many points as the current top and bottom teams, meaning overall you would have more teams within the same points range, meaning a win one week could lead to a larger jump in league position. There is a chance teams at the bottom end would end up with lower points totals, but in this case the winners would probably be mid table teams who would then close the gap at the top end. Saying that, I wasn't around when we had bigger leagues in the past. However I'd much rather have a number meaningless games each season than play Falkirk or Peterhead a million times a season like we have in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Back to what we had before the "businessmen" came in and made a rip-roaring fckn arse of it - 2 leagues, no TV, games on Saturday at 3pm, and so on and so forth. I'd even have The Rangers on that basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) My 'further thoughts' actually cover finances and avoiding meaningless games. The split (top 8 bottom 8) would provide a further 7 games and you determine who is the home team by who wins on aggregate in the first 2 games. The gate money is split in a similar way to how it is for cup games, with the home team incurring the costs but getting a bigger share of the gate to compensate...they also get to keep the hospitality/catering/program/half time draw money etc. The prize for good football and winning matches is playing at home for potentially vital games plus a bit more money, even if you're playing away from home you're likely to make a bit of money dependent on where you're playing and what's at stake. Relegation would be 2 down 2 up and a play-off (either including the 3rd bottom Top League side and the 3rd, 4th, and 5th of the 2nd tier, or simply 3 down and 6th placed 2nd tier side joins the play-off). Changes like this would be radical, but I think these are the sort of changes that need to be made to help our game develop and let football talent shine (without the fear). When was Scotland at it's peak on a European and World level? What where the league sizes at that time? The pyramid system would be easy, juniors could opt out if they so wished but there needs to be relegation from the bottom tier imo, LIB has outlined the reasons for this all too well for some time now. Edited June 25, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWM Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) League sizes have nothing to do with Scotland being at its peak of powers or not. Since the 70s, football has developed in countries much bigger than Scotland and you have also had the likes of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia breaking up into smaller countries creating much stiffer competition. If anything the country has found its level. Also with regards to the pyramid, outwith the Highland League the interest in the central belt is minimal and few clubs have the resources to make it worthwhile at the moment, many clubs in the East and South of Scotland League's play in borderline public parks. Edited June 25, 2012 by MWM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) League sizes have nothing to do with Scotland being at its peak of powers or not. Since the 70s, football has developed in countries much bigger than Scotland and you have also had the likes of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia breaking up into smaller countries creating much stiffer competition. If anything the country has found its level. Hmmm, top nations in world of football, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland, France and England..what have they all got in common (apart from being much better at football then Scotland)? Edited June 25, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig-W Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 1 Big league of 42 play eaach other once winner takes all That's great. Whoever finishes first wins the league title and both cups at the same time. Also last goal's the winner in every game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Also with regards to the pyramid, outwith the Highland League the interest in the central belt is minimal and few clubs have the resources to make it worthwhile at the moment, many clubs in the East and South of Scotland League's play in borderline public parks. But there are some clubs interested, so why not start a consultation period, and invite applications for an open ended Scottish Football League, with regionalisation below the second or third tier? If clubs don't take up the invite, then who cares? There has to be a bottom league somewhere down the line. Whilst England has an incredible pyramid structure, there is a bottom and the Sunday leagues don't filter into the lowest regional leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 That's great. Whoever finishes first wins the league title and both cups at the same time. Also last goal's the winner in every game. And no one gets bored of playing the same team too often, and you'll only visit the likes of dens park every second year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 I would like to see a return to 2 leagues but with relegation from/promotion to the 2nd. We now 41 clubs in the SPL and SFL. If Newco or another club is admitted that would put 21 clubs in each league and 40 games a season. There are 24 clubs England's Leagues 1 and 2 and the Conference. They can handle 46 league games plus 3 Cup competitions a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hmmm, top nations in world of football, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland, France and England..what have they all got in common (apart from being much better at football then Scotland)? Outside the Netherlands and Portugal they have much bigger populations to draw upon, whilst we have both a small population and the most unhealthy population in Europe. We're also shortarses compared with the rest of Europe, meaning there are fewer people with the physical attributes required (I know height isn't everything, but apart from Messi I'd imagine the majority of good players are above average height). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Outside the Netherlands and Portugal they have much bigger populations to draw upon, whilst we have both a small population and the most unhealthy population in Europe. We're also shortarses compared with the rest of Europe, meaning there are fewer people with the physical attributes required (I know height isn't everything, but apart from Messi I'd imagine the majority of good players are above average height). Yeah I can understand the point re populations to draw upon, but like you said Holland and Portugal (and Denmark, Sweden etc?) have similar populations to us. We are a nation of lazy buggers tho, lifestyles need to change (which leads me on to opportunities available for kids today, but that's a whole other discussion). As for size and all that, Jimmy Johnstone, Archie Gemill, Billy Bremner, Mo Johnstone, Kenny Dalglish (could go on), Maradonna, Messi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Lahm, all wee, all arguably world class. I appreciate you could give me a list of above average size players who have been/are world class, but from a Scottish perspective most of our really good players have been average size at best. Edited June 25, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWM Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) But there are some clubs interested, so why not start a consultation period, and invite applications for an open ended Scottish Football League, with regionalisation below the second or third tier? If clubs don't take up the invite, then who cares? There has to be a bottom league somewhere down the line. Whilst England has an incredible pyramid structure, there is a bottom and the Sunday leagues don't filter into the lowest regional leagues. Right now the pyramid would be a mess with several hundred junior clubs showing no interest. If it came to it, and a WoS club was relegated, Clyde for instance, would be playing in a unbalanced setup full of clubs in East Lothian and the Borders. The Netherlands have a population over 3 times of our own. Portugal have a population of double. Sweden 9 million and Denmark are the only one anywhere close with a few hundred thousand extra. While there is definitely room for improvement with the likes of them, Ireland and Croatia reaching major tournaments, largely fuelled by the media there are pie in the sky expecations for the National team and clubs competing in Europe. Never ever will we compete with the likes of Holland or Portugal. Summer football, 16 team leagues, reforms of coaching (which have been done a trillion times anyway) will not make us anymore successful. The comparisons with England are laughable. We are a nation of 5 million people and can only piss with the very small **** we've got. Comparisons with England could be made when 45 million people are shipped in. Edited June 25, 2012 by MWM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Holland and Portugal (and Denmark, Sweden etc?) have similar populations to us. Holland 17 million Portugal 10.5 million Denmark 5.5 million Sweden 9 million Scotland 5million So really all we can be compared to in size is Denmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckstone Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Population of Uruguay (World Cup semi-finalists) - 3.4 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Holland 17 million Portugal 10.5 million Denmark 5.5 million Sweden 9 million Scotland 5million So really all we can be compared to in size is Denmark. Yes, this was established earlier (at least I was closer than Twinny in my guestimations ). Clearly population and size of player is not the issue, we've always had wee players and a population of round about 5 million, yet at one point in the not too distant past we could at least compete in Championship Finals like the Euros and World Cups. Instead of trying to see ways in which Scotland are limited on what we can achieve, why don't we try to see what can be done to maxamise those limitations? We've never had a better chance to do something to benefit the game for a change, so anyone else got suggestions? Edited June 25, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggyman Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 Given that talks are only getting serious due to liquidation of h*ns i dont want just anything pushed through i hope they take their time and what really is best for scottish football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 League sizes have nothing to do with Scotland being at its peak of powers or not. Since the 70s, football has developed in countries much bigger than Scotland and you have also had the likes of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia breaking up into smaller countries creating much stiffer competition. If anything the country has found its level. You may be right about league sizes but back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s Scotland had teams that reached (and in some case won) European finals. The national team also qualified in Word cup competions. So our level was good though not a match for the very best. Our current level is down to neglect of youth development for decades - down to the SPL and SFA sitting on their hands until it may be too late now. Nothing to do with other countries development - though we should have looked at Holland, Sweden and similar countries with populations not to far off our own and followed their lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 There are a few ideas floating around the various threads regarding this, so thought a separate thread would be useful. I'm not sure if this was lost in the large number of threads on the go the other day or if it was simply ignored as it was a shite idea, but here's what I think (and I have wider ideas on how it ight work, but willl leave that for now, have discussed it on here before anyway). I would love to see 2 top leagues of 16 and a league of 12 (with a pyramid system below that) starting in time for season 2013/14. Simple really, but here's how it can bring about the balance between sporting integrity and commercialism that everyone seems to want. SPL/SFL1 promotion would continue as is for the coming season (1 up 1 down), and those finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th would make up SPFL1 with the other 11 SPL teams. Newco win SFL3 (because that's the ONLY league they should be allowed to play in, at best) and go into SPFL2 along with the bottom 5 SFL1 teams, the relegated SPL team and the other 9 SFL2 teams. Bottom SFL2 team this season coming drops to the new SPFL3 along with the 9 remaining SFL3 teams (and could even continue with the play-offs for this season too). Then SPFL take applications from others for the 2 slots created by league reconstruction. That reduces Newcos time out of the top league by a year, sporting integrity will have been salvaged (if it at all can be due to this saga), ALL clubs will benefit financially as Newco climb the leagues and gives us the kind of league reconstruction the majority of us are wanting. Teams coming with Newco from SFL3 to SPFL2 will benefit from 2 seasons of Newco, but they are the ones who need it the most anyway. That seems too neat and tidy for me. If you've kept up with what Im saying (even I struggled at times), can you spot any flaws in that scenario? Apart from the obvious that the SPL might not see 16 teams as financially viable of course. Haven't considered the distribution of TV/sponsorship/prize money, but Jaggernaut had some thoughts on that elsewhere on the forum, but a single financial structure for all leagues would be my recommendation. That all looks good to me. If they're worried about the number of games, re-introduce the mini-league league cup system of old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 Right now the pyramid would be a mess with several hundred junior clubs showing no interest. If it came to it, and a WoS club was relegated, Clyde for instance, would be playing in a unbalanced setup full of clubs in East Lothian and the Borders. The Netherlands have a population over 3 times of our own. Portugal have a population of double. Sweden 9 million and Denmark are the only one anywhere close with a few hundred thousand extra. While there is definitely room for improvement with the likes of them, Ireland and Croatia reaching major tournaments, largely fuelled by the media there are pie in the sky expecations for the National team and clubs competing in Europe. Never ever will we compete with the likes of Holland or Portugal. Summer football, 16 team leagues, reforms of coaching (which have been done a trillion times anyway) will not make us anymore successful. The comparisons with England are laughable. We are a nation of 5 million people and can only piss with the very small **** we've got. Comparisons with England could be made when 45 million people are shipped in. Very good trashing job so far. Any positive suggestions to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 I have said for years we should follow the German model for the leagues en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_football_league_system . Very simple and fully regionalised. If a team wins the league it can choose to be promoted or not even if it meets the criteria for entry to the higher league. We need to take a step back and look at everything we do in Scottish football and look to a 10 year plan to improve the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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