billko Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 I have some sympathy with the Hearts players on this one. These are teenagers who will not be fully physically developed yet and who would ordinarily be used sparingly at this stage in their careers. They are being asked to play week in week out against fully grown men with little chance of getting substituted never mind left out for a proper rest / recovery and this could have a detrimental effect on the longevity of their playing careers (see Alex Fergusons recent comments regarding Michael Owen). The club should be punished but not to the detriment of the careers of teenage boys who had nothing to do with the clubs financial collapse. Perhaps they could let them register Billy Brown as a player? Got to disagree on this and if the coaches of Hearts can't coach the players they have and younger lads in the U20's then they should step aside and let others come in who can. These boys are gaining great experience and will benefit from it and an experience very few young lads in Scotland get the chance of doing. A 2-0 win for Thistle against Hearts confirms these young lads are not that far away from a decent level and maybe other clubs should use the games against Hearts to play some of their young stars to give them the experience. If in admin they can't sign players which is the rule that's in place and although it isn't the players fault for a team going into admin i don't think it will do them any harm getting these high level games. If the Hearts management are honest with themselves then burnout isn't the main reason for wanting the ban lifted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Only one fact that is worth bothering about. Rangers were liquidated in 2012. Not the company, not the ballboys, not the doorman....Rangers Football Club. The club now operating out of Ibrox, commonly known as Sevco 5088 but officially known as The Rangers were born in 2012.....fact. Get over it Bilko and get behind your new club!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie T Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Lol that was a helluva post yodajag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sons of Somner Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 oh dear billyboy, you're still in denial. how about fifa for starters? http://www.fifa.com/...01/7/index.html in their "12 moments that defined 2012 " they state: the club died, the history timeline ceased, the club you now follow is 18 months old, thats its history. media quotes include: - The Herald: “Air of unreality as 140 years of history is formally ended in less than nine minutes” (The Herald, 15 June 2012: http://www.heraldsco...inutes.17876625). - Roddie Forsyth: “Rangers in crisis: the final whistle sounds on Rangers’ 140 years of history” (The Telegraph, 12 June 2012: http://www.telegraph...of-history.html). - Jim Traynor: “Rangers FC as we know them are dead. It’s all over. They are about to shut down for ever…They’ll slip into liquidation within the next couple of weeks with a new company emerging but 140 years of history, triumph and tears, will have ended… No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers as we know them died.” (Daily Record, 13 June 2012: http://www.dailyreco...be-able-1129166). and then, even Charles Green held the same categorical viewpoint [speaking to the BBC if a CVA is not accepted]: “…the history, the tradition, everything that is great about this Club, is swept aside.” many many more, outside the bigotbluebrothersbubble who do not have their heads in sand and are still trotting out the "was company not the club" deluded line, have a look for instance at scotzine or how about this from graham spiers, which includes: or how about looking at it from the insolvency law angle? when a company is liquidated its business activities cease to exist. The business of Rangers FC Plc was football. When Rangers FC Plc was wound up, so were the football activities of Rangers FC Plc i.e. the football club and associated merchandising etc. The BBC recognised this fact when they observed that “The Rangers Football Club PLC is a public limited company registered in Scotland (company number: SC004276) and was incorporated on 27 May, 1899. When the current company is officially liquidated, all of its corporate business history will come to an end.” furthermore, if a new company is formed – using assets bought from the old, liquidated company, for the purposes of operating the same type of business – it is not only a new company that has come into being but also the start of a new business venture, irrespective of the nature of that business. In the context of Rangers, the Rangers FC plying its trade in the SFL is a new football club and not the same club as that which played in the SPL. To deny otherwise is contrary to insolvency law. If it were otherwise then insolvency law would be a meaningless legal instrument. or how about looking at it from the insolvency act angle? legal matters can be determined by statute (Acts of Parliament) or case law. In terms of statute, there is no law that permits a liquidated company’s history to continue unbroken after liquidation: on the contrary, there is one to prevent such an event taking place – The Insolvency Act 1986. In terms of case law, there is no legal precedent to justify the claim that a liquidated company’s history can legitimately resurface under the guise of another company. Once a company is liquidated, its name, historical timeline and associated business activities immediately cease. In the case of a football club, there is no club in the UK that has been liquidated and resurfaced, after liquidation, with its history intact. In Scotland for example, Airdrieonians, formed in 1878 (under the earlier exotic name of Excelsior Football Club) went into liquidation in 2002. In the same year Airdrie FC was formed but because of insolvency law could not lay claim to the history of its previous incarnation, which to their credit they accepted with good grace. Other examples include Gretna and Clydebank. Rangers’ fans erroneously point to the case of Leeds United FC as evidence of a club that has a continuous historical timeline intact after liquidation. In 2007, Leeds United AFC Ltd, under the threat of liquidation, was sold to Leeds United FC Ltd, but with the important proviso that HMRC would agree to a CVA. HMRC did eventually agree to a CVA and Leeds was saved from compulsory liquidation. The club suffered a points deduction and after paying off the creditorsand the proper and orderly transfer of assets from Leeds United AFC Ltd to Leeds United FC Ltd, the old club company was voluntarily wound up. If a CVA had not been agreed and Leeds United AFC Ltd had been forced into compulsory liquidation then Leeds United FC Ltd (i.e. the new company) would not have been able to claim the history of the old club. Rangers FC is a very different case indeed and Rangers fans cannot point to the example of Leeds FC as an exemple of club survival after liquidation. or how about sfa membership and eufa licence? when Charles Green bought the assets of Rangers FC Plc he also purchased the old club’s SFA membership and SPL share. Prior to liquidation, Rangers had full membership status within Scottish professional football. After liquidation, the club playing in SFL Division 3 was allocated associate membership status. The reason for that was very simple: the Rangers playing in the SFL was a different club than the one which previously played in the SPL. Importantly, the new Rangers applied to join the SPL but their application was rejected, despite a mysterious 5-way agreement. If Rangers was the same club pre and post liquidation then an application would have been completely unnecessary, particularly since they claimed to purchase the old club’s SFA membership and SPL share. Of course, Rangers was legally dissolved after liquidation – hence the need for a fresh application from the new club. Similarly, the new Rangers then applied to join the SFL and this time their application was successful. Remember, if an existing SPL club changes ownership or its holding company changes from a Ltd to a Plc, it has no bearing on the club’s membership status and therefore there is no requirement to re-apply for SFA or SPL membership – it is liquidation that forces that event. Furthermore, because Rangers post-liquidation is a new club, it is unable to compete in European competition for three years. It is a stipulation of EUFA that a license to play in Europe can only be given to a club that has been a member of a national association for three consecutive years. The old Rangers did have a EUFA license but the new Rangers do not. When Rangers FC expired, so did their EUFA license. The fact that the SFA has allowed The Rangers FC to pretend that their history is continuous, contrary to insolvency law, has no bearing on the facts of the case and will forever remain a stain on the SFA’s reputation. there are dozens upon dozens of other examples and legal precedence that could be quoted to highlight the fact that Rangers FC died in 2012, thats the club, its history and everything associated with it. the club you and others who hang on to the false notion it is not, is ultimately a sad reflection of your collective denial and inability to accept reality and truth. in the cold light of day, it is indisputable that the club and company currently operating out of murray and ibrox park is a new club and company. in closing (as i have no intention of continuing to debate the facts and reality, you and other bears steadfastly and stupidly ignore, and instead cling to the denial and completely false belief that the club you now follow is a new club, with a 18 month history, no more no less), i will say hat off to you for your jags reports, updates and enthusiasm for ptfc youths, please keep up that excellence (which is valued and appreciated by many Jags fans), but when it comes to other clubs you supported and now support, we will have to agree to disagree until such a time as you escape the dark side and accept the truth, as unpalatable as it may still be to you and others like you (the grief of losing someone or something close to you, can take a while to come to terms of acceptance that they have indeed died and gone forever). Great post is this, hmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottymagoo Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) They play in blue at Ibrox and thousands of numbskulls turn up to shout bigoted bile every time they play, it sounds a lot like Rangers to me. Pretending they aren’t on a technicality is frankly just childish……….but if it winds up Sevco 5088 fans then I’m all for it! Edited January 13, 2014 by scottymagoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinKelvin Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 They play in blue at Ibrox and thousands of numbskulls turn up to shout bigoted bile every time they play, it sounds a lot like Rangers to me. Pretending they aren’t on a technicality is frankly just childish……….but if it winds up Sevco 5088 fans then I’m all for it! In as much as I care about this (i.e. not v much), I agree with the above. Everyone in Scottish football trying to argue complex and nuanced points based on corporate/insolvency law just leaves us with a huge inconclusive mess. They look like Rangers to me, and I actually quite like arguing that they're the same club in order to infuriate the 'butter wouldn't melt' Celtic fans who say they don't care then spend hours arguing about this. Overall, it's been weird to see the Ugly Sisters' respective unwashed masses swap roles - we still have a vast persecution complex on one side and a nasty band of triumphalists on the other, but they're the other way round now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I know it's a 'cake and eat it' issue, but, while I see them as deceased; gone to meet their maker etc, I must say that I will still get a huge buzz when we eventually play and hump them, in exactly the way I would've if deceased hunco had survived and we gubbed them. Then again, that's maybe just a massive GIRFUY from me to those dopy, a wee bit slow hvns who, metaphorically, still keep the decomposed corpse in the hoose and refuse to bury it through uncontrollable grief at their loss; still get it out of bed in the morning, dressing it, washing it and giving it breakfast which naturally spills all down it, talking to it and singing wee sash-type songs to it, evermore refusing to believe that it has expired; breathed its last; turned its toes up; become a late hunco . . . ad nauseum. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) In as much as I care about this (i.e. not v much), I agree with the above. Everyone in Scottish football trying to argue complex and nuanced points based on corporate/insolvency law just leaves us with a huge inconclusive mess. They look like Rangers to me, and I actually quite like arguing that they're the same club in order to infuriate the 'butter wouldn't melt' Celtic fans who say they don't care then spend hours arguing about this. Some guys let themselves get dragged into company law details - which is daft because the guys they're trying to convince will never admit they're right no matter how strong the evidence is. But you don't need all that to know they did cheat (they - the oldco- admitted using some illegal EBTs and were told to pay some millions back; LNS found them guilty of not registering players properly even though the Football authorities decided to give a joke punishment: all that's been widely reported and doesn't need corporate law expertise). Technically they're now a new club - and that's important to say because of the H*ns who keep complaining about harsh punishments when all that happened was a consequence of them being a new club. But since the new club plays at the same stadium, has the same idiot manager and the same bigots supporting it then like they say, if it looks like a duck ... you have to say it's a continuation of the old club, at least in spirit - it must be since the SFA have bent over backwards to help them out, they wouldn't do that for anyone else, would they. Overall, it's been weird to see the Ugly Sisters' respective unwashed masses swap roles - we still have a vast persecution complex on one side and a nasty band of triumphalists on the other, but they're the other way round now! That's a very good point. Though I don't think the triumphalists have completely lost their paranoia! Edited January 13, 2014 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Then again, that's maybe just a massive GIRFUY from me to those dopy, a wee bit slow hvns who, metaphorically, still keep the decomposed corpse in the hoose and refuse to bury it through uncontrollable grief at their loss; still get it out of bed in the morning, dressing it, washing it and giving it breakfast which naturally spills all down it, talking to it and singing wee sash-type songs to it, evermore refusing to believe that it has expired; breathed its last; turned its toes up; become a late hunco . . . ad nauseum. Absolute genius analogy...!!!! Why cannot someone of unquestionable authority come right out and say, once and for all, and without any scope whatsoever for ambiguity or misinterpretation - "Hvns - you are a brand new club. There is no oldco history attached to you.You have one title - the old SFL3. You might play at Ibrox and you might play in Rangers strips, but you are not Rangers." How beautiful would that be??? Can you just imagine the coupons on them if that happened?? Edited January 13, 2014 by crazy davie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Absolute genius analogy...!!!! Why cannot someone of unquestionable authority come right out and say, once and for all, and without any scope whatsoever for ambiguity or misinterpretation - "Hvns - you are a brand new club. There is no oldco history attached to you.You have one title - the old SFL3. You might play at Ibrox and you might play in Rangers strips, but you are not Rangers." How beautiful would that be??? Can you just imagine the coupons on them if that happened?? they just did, you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Rather than get involved in tit for tat with folk who copy and paste any old crap as long as it suits their personal agenda even if it's inaccurate (Scotzine and the discredited journalist Spiers ) i would only like to add that when Rangers win their next major honour it will be acknowledged as adding to the gloroius history already in place. Rangers will officialy continue to be the most successful club in Scotland and only folk in this backwater of a country who have a personal agenda based on jealousy or just plain old hatred (or something more sinister) towards Scotland's most successful club will ever disagree with that. These folk are no marks and have had 2 yrs of trawling over blogs written mainly by bigot's who have spouted all sorts of nonsense with regard EBT's etc etc to get their anti Rangers fix. It's all got ridiculous now and rather than let Rangers get on with it and move up the leagues they don't let go. In the not too distant future Rangers will add to the 54 already won and title 55 will be officialy recognised. Apologies for going off topic and to all the Jag fans who couldn't give a feck but the same old posters will keep posting their pi5h until i reply. No more on this subject from me and i will sit back with my popcorn and enjoy the fun. This is a great example of the kind of 'burying your head in the sand' mentality that allowed your club to die in the first place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyprusjag Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Pity the new club didn't take the opportunity to disassociate themselves from the old clubs bigotry and ban the sectarian singing and banners. They could have started with a clean slate and built something they could justafiably be proud of. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Pity the new club didn't take the opportunity to disassociate themselves from the old clubs bigotry and ban the sectarian singing and banners. They could have started with a clean slate and built something they could justafiably be proud of. integrity ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 I hope the irony of Billko writing agendas and bias is not lost on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Rangers are like Elvis , once a big name then died, then a tribute turned up who looks the same, sounds the same, even wears the same clothes and folk will pay money to see him perform........ but its not the real Elvis, and deep down everyone knows this, he died (Or joined the CIA depending on what you believe). Rangers also died, and we have an impersonator appearing at smaller venues now on the club circuit Edited January 16, 2014 by Norgethistle 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 I suppose billko just wants to be our teddy bear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 breaking news from the new club based in govan ..... the players have rejected a 15% paycut. clearly not all in it together. admin and liquidation takes a step closer. what a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 breaking news from the new club based in govan ..... the players have rejected a 15% paycut. clearly not all in it together. admin and liquidation takes a step closer. what a shame. Well well who would have thought that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 even if the paycut was accepted, how many months before it would be implemented? even if paycut was implemented, what real difference would it make to the new club surviving? with a reported £1m/month loss being hemorrhaged, on a yearly wage bill reported to be £6-8m, at most it will save £1m a year, which is less than £100k/month. fact of matter is theres only one outcome going to happen, and it won't be winning any top league titles, but that of a short-lived lower league history. ding dong rangers are dead ding dong the sevco will soon be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 even if the paycut was accepted, how many months before it would be implemented? even if paycut was implemented, what real difference would it make to the new club surviving? with a reported £1m/month loss being hemorrhaged, on a yearly wage bill reported to be £6-8m, at most it will save £1m a year, which is less than £100k/month. fact of matter is theres only one outcome going to happen, and it won't be winning any top league titles, but that of a short-lived lower league history. ding dong rangers are dead ding dong the sevco will soon be dead. Also these players are getting paid higher than any SPFL Premiership players outwith Celtic, so no one in Scotland can afford their wages, so the only option is to try and sell them down south, but none of them are good enough for low end championship teams who could afford them, so sit back and keep taking the cash for the next 18 months of your contract or leave as a free agent and get a decent signing on fee when Rangers go tits up in February Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 The Hearts situation is perhaps more interesting as perhaps the thread title would appear to be trying to address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 You really couldn't make it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 The Hearts situation is perhaps more interesting as perhaps the thread title would appear to be trying to address. Good point. How long do Hearts have before the cash runs out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 A club with fifty thousand fans and no debt managing to overspend on players while in the third and fourth tier of Scottish football. It is truly unbelievable. I can't believe that a club which had been burned previously would be so irresponsible. Therefore it must be a different club. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 The Hearts situation is perhaps more interesting as perhaps the thread title would appear to be trying to address. Oh yeah, right enough. Apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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