angry gaz Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 the league set up is a total shambles and does zilch for our games development...top league of 16-18, 2nd tier of 16-18 then support with regional pyramids a la German structure...its all great having a youth set up but if you can't then move them along into the next stage without fear of relegation etc then young players have less of a chance of making it...but we never learn in this country 100% correct. Our league set up is crippling the development of young talent . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Carlos I Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 I wouldn't want Archie to leave, even if we finish bottom. I have no idea why people expect Thistle to stay in the top flight comfortably. We have no budget. We just don't have the resources when you consider we can't come close to competing with the wages on offer at Killie, Ross County, Motherwell ie. clubs that struggled last season. I'd also be happy enough supporting us in the Championship. The main thing is keeping the club's long-term future and to keep the youth system growing. Archie has done an unbelievable job. He's not perfect but he's the manager of Partick Thistle, so of course he isn't. I don't buy this stuff about 'taking the club to the next level' either. Be careful what you wish for - 'expectation is the root of all suffering'. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 If you think that the current set up is fit for purpose then you are in a distinct minority with that view. Every survey that's done comes back with the same results - fans want bigger leagues playing each team twice. How anyone can say it's fit for purpose is beyond me. The standard of players we attract to the league has never been lower, attendances have never been lower, and the income from TV coverage is dwindling all the time. It is off topic. But I'd say that being in a distinct minority doesn't make you wrong. Plenty wrong with the game in this country but I don't see the league set-up as one of them. Seems to me that the argument regarding youth development is just an argument in favour of meaningless mid-table games at the end of the season. I doubt that the game can afford that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 It is off topic. But I'd say that being in a distinct minority doesn't make you wrong. Plenty wrong with the game in this country but I don't see the league set-up as one of them. Seems to me that the argument regarding youth development is just an argument in favour of meaningless mid-table games at the end of the season. I doubt that the game can afford that. Not much can be more meaningless than that split pish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 As long as one or, if you read this in nine months time, two teams have vastly more resources than anybody else, the entire league is pointless from day 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 If you think that the current set up is fit for purpose then you are in a distinct minority with that view. Every survey that's done comes back with the same results - fans want bigger leagues playing each team twice. How anyone can say it's fit for purpose is beyond me. The standard of players we attract to the league has never been lower, attendances have never been lower, and the income from TV coverage is dwindling all the time. the prize pot isn't only made up of tv income alone admittedly, but interesting to note the pot of cash paid out to the fortytwo clubs this season has apparently gone up fourteen percent according to stv news tonight. finishing bottom now equals a few shillings short of £1.8 million. but apart from that, don't disagree with anything else you've said (or westendjags post either). you both missed out substandard refereeing as another large factor in dwindling crowds though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 (edited) Not much can be more meaningless than that split pish I don't understand this view. The split over the last two seasons (particularly our first up) has meant that most fixtures in the bottom half has been critical, and the top half usually has European stuff to play for. How can it be a bad thing, to ensure that in the closing games the teams are playing against those directly against them in the league? I know I'm in the minority and I know it's not perfect. I just find it difficult to understand how hardly anyone can see the benefits. It's like no one wants to. Edited November 2, 2015 by allyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 Once you abandon the basic principle that every team in the league plays every other team in the league home and away an equal number of times, I'm sure there any many means of creating excitement right up to the end of the season. But without that basic principle, there is no integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 Small sacrifice I think. It's kind of the luck of the draw (though I actually think it should be that. I don't like the idea of a committee fixing the fixtures) You could argue that a play off system which potentially promotes a team finishing fourth over second is unfair. Or a cup tie that gives one team home advantage. Anyway, it's an argument I never win, just happy to put it forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 Ps I'd prefer Archie the Inventor to Jimmy Calderwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 So La Liga, the EPL, Serie A and the Bundesliga should all reduce the size of their league to 10-12 teams then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westend Jag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Or even Holland, belgium, Portugal....16-18 teams is the way forward along with a load of other changes that have been mentioned...but whether it is a self interest thing or whether those in charge genuinely think they've got it right at the moment, sadly it won't change. Never got the meaningless mid table clash stuff and how the the removal of that perceived situation with the split makes for a better quality product on the park, better development of younger players etc. excitement at the bottom end maybe but quality? clearly not so and as for the securing a Euro spot excitement that the top 6 brings (cos only 1 team will win the league) - that's forgotten about around mid August in the following season when all our teams are out bar Celtic!..because we aren't creating quality players. Seems to me that the apathy amongst most people who were once weekly attendees at football in our country and all the empty seats (in some cases cunningly disguised by big banners in some grounds) we see week in week out suggest that too many people see the current set up as "meaningless". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The moment Rangers went out of business the authorities bent over backwards to strive to get a team playing in blue at Ibrox back into the top league asap. For one reason only. To sell 4 matches against Celtic to the tv companies. That is the reason for the league structure. That is the extent of the planning for the future. That is the financial plan in full. To hell with everybody else. Not long to wait now. Next season Scottish football will have what it 'needs'. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 A league of 16 would produce less games but that deficit would/could/should be supplemented by the League Cup returning to mini leagues (perhaps 8 sections of 5 or 6 clubs). The sections would be seeded. Every club would be guaranteed in total 19 home games. Putting aside the bleeding of youth players argument there would be as I see it two major benefits. Firstly, even if gates in the sectionalised league cup stage were to be kept 100% by the home side, there would still be a wider distribution of money throughout the leagues. Secondly fans would be guaranteed seeing their team play against a wider range of opposing teams and just as importantly not seeing their team play against the same old opponents so often. A by product of this would rekindle interest in the Scottish Cup as you wouldn't be playing a team you've already played maybe three or four times earlier in the season. I for certain would feel my season ticket was better value if I could see the Jags play 18-20 different sides than the depressingly repetitive system where we only play against 11 or so clubs (even less down the divisions). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The moment Rangers went out of business the authorities bent over backwards to strive to get a team playing in blue at Ibrox back into the top league asap. For one reason only. To sell 4 matches against Celtic to the tv companies. That is the reason for the league structure. That is the extent of the planning for the future. That is the financial plan in full. To hell with everybody else. Not long to wait now. Next season Scottish football will have what it 'needs'. Absolutely spot on. And that's why Scottish football is a busted flush. Until the issue of the Old Firm is addressed, there's no way forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 no likes available, but the above three posts from westendjag, bowenboys and that old bissum barnett, all correct in their entirety, so you all win a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Oh well. At least I got a "like" for my Jimmy Calderwood post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westend Jag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Absolutely spot on. And that's why Scottish football is a busted flush. Until the issue of the Old Firm is addressed, there's no way forward. yup that position started to gather real pace when david murray led the charge for a breakaway league in the 90s....coinciding with our national sports spiral into the sh*te Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 A league of 16 would produce less games but that deficit would/could/should be supplemented by the League Cup returning to mini leagues (perhaps 8 sections of 5 or 6 clubs). The sections would be seeded. Every club would be guaranteed in total 19 home games. Putting aside the bleeding of youth players argument there would be as I see it two major benefits. Firstly, even if gates in the sectionalised league cup stage were to be kept 100% by the home side, there would still be a wider distribution of money throughout the leagues. Secondly fans would be guaranteed seeing their team play against a wider range of opposing teams and just as importantly not seeing their team play against the same old opponents so often. A by product of this would rekindle interest in the Scottish Cup as you wouldn't be playing a team you've already played maybe three or four times earlier in the season. I for certain would feel my season ticket was better value if I could see the Jags play 18-20 different sides than the depressingly repetitive system where we only play against 11 or so clubs (even less down the divisions). Nice to see a cogent case for how larger leagues could work in practice. Going to memorise this and rehearse, making it sound as though I thought of it. Thanks l-i-b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 LIB has absolutely nailed it there, and it really isn't rocket science (sorry m'lady). 16 team league with a return to sectional league cup would be absolutely ideal. There used to a real groundswell of opinion that we didn't have enough decent teams for a competitive 16 team league. Surely that's gone out the window now since Hearts, Sevco and Hibs have all featured in the lower divisions. Take the 12 teams currently in the top league, add Sevco, Hibs, St. Mirren and Falkirk. That would be a really good competitive league in my opinion. You would also have the likes of Morton and QOS vying to get in as well. OK the quality of player won't improve overnight but it would certainly re-ignite the fans interest and put an end to the tedious ordeal of playing each team 4 times a season. The argument against seems to be "too many meaningless games". But in any league format, you will ALWAYS have meaningless games, it's completely unavoidable. Even in the champions league, which is effectively 8 leagues of 4 teams, you have meaningless games towards the end of the group stage. So even in a league of 4 teams, you cannot avoid meaningless games. All the top leagues in Europe have at least 16 teams in them, they seem to be doing not too bad. I can't think of any other nation our size who have such a small top league. And we ony have it to suit 2 clubs who want to play each other 4 times a year, sometimes 7! It's absolutely absurd. It's certainly affecting the attendances and it's slowly killing our game week by week. It's not exactly helping our national team either. Anyone who is happy with the current league set up, I would seriously question your judgement and sanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westend Jag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 LIB has absolutely nailed it there, and it really isn't rocket science (sorry m'lady). 16 team league with a return to sectional league cup would be absolutely ideal. There used to a real groundswell of opinion that we didn't have enough decent teams for a competitive 16 team league. Surely that's gone out the window now since Hearts, Sevco and Hibs have all featured in the lower divisions. Take the 12 teams currently in the top league, add Sevco, Hibs, St. Mirren and Falkirk. That would be a really good competitive league in my opinion. You would also have the likes of Morton and QOS vying to get in as well. OK the quality of player won't improve overnight but it would certainly re-ignite the fans interest and put an end to the tedious ordeal of playing each team 4 times a season. The argument against seems to be "too many meaningless games". But in any league format, you will ALWAYS have meaningless games, it's completely unavoidable. Even in the champions league, which is effectively 8 leagues of 4 teams, you have meaningless games towards the end of the group stage. So even in a league of 4 teams, you cannot avoid meaningless games. All the top leagues in Europe have at least 16 teams in them, they seem to be doing not too bad. I can't think of any other nation our size who have such a small top league. And we ony have it to suit 2 clubs who want to play each other 4 times a year, sometimes 7! It's absolutely absurd. It's certainly affecting the attendances and it's slowly killing our game week by week. It's not exactly helping our national team either. Anyone who is happy with the current league set up, I would seriously question your judgement and sanity. yup all sensible, also what sits beneath top flight - 2nd tier of 16-18 with regional pyramids is important, it all has to work at all levels & be integrated....then we can start talking about pricing & when our leagues start & finish in the year broadcasting etc etc...easy eh?....sadly it won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 To be fair I question my sanity every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 To be fair I question my sanity every day. Surely everyone who supports Partick Thistle must question their sanity and judgement? I'm with Allyo on this...I'm happy enough with the current set up. I prefer games where there is a competitive edge - no team outwith the Old Firm has won the League for 30 years and that will continue for the foreseeable but games to reach the top six or to avoid relegation or the play-off spot are meaningful. With a 16 team League there will be a large mid-table where there is nothing much to play for. I think all the other factors listed by Westend Jag are far more significant in Scotland's footballing failings than the League Structure. I might be persuaded of the merit of more teams in the League if the Two Ugly Sisters were not in it...the others would have some chance of winning the League or at least challenging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglemon Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I disagree with the whole premise of this topic. Our style of play was the same last season and in the last third of the season we were excellent, as were results so logically you can't blame the style. I'm not saying changes in players don't make a difference: look at the best goal of last season- Higginbotham to O'Donell to Taylor to O'Donnell goal! All gone, maybe something to do with it. Certainly give me Taylor over Pogba on what I've seen so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I disagree with the whole premise of this topic. Our style of play was the same last season and in the last third of the season we were excellent, as were results so logically you can't blame the style. I'm not saying changes in players don't make a difference: look at the best goal of last season- Higginbotham to O'Donell to Taylor to O'Donnell goal! All gone, maybe something to do with it. Certainly give me Taylor over Pogba on what I've seen so far. Fox began the move as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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