Dick Dastardly Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 And what is so fundamentally different in the Scottish legal system that makes us a no hope of success, but Belgian and French clubs in the same situation win ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: That of the courts and that of the SPFL and the attempts by other clubs to get football up and running again. Because it unacceptably and disproportionately disrupts and distracts from getting football back up and running in Scotland. I didn’t say I supported a boycott. I said I wouldn’t object to it. It doesn’t waste anyone’s time and crucially it doesn’t breed ignorance of how football works by dragging everyone through the courts during a pandemic. No Sevco behaviour is about doing stupid and counterproductive things that are virtue signalling to stop Neanderthals from going off on one. How individual fans spend their own money is their business. Yes we just have to accept our medicine. No we don’t and are choosing not to.....you want us to be just about the inky club in Scotland who sacrifices themselves for the greater good of Scottish football .....well no thanks Scottish football.....no leadership, no brand , no strategy , no sponsor it’s just a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 I know it sounds churlish, but would the benefactor underwriting the legal fees not be more effective if their money was used to bolster our finances by say the purchase of newly issued shares. Woodstock's arguments seem persuasive to this non-lawyer, and given the uncertainty about our future cash-flow, extra money in our bank could avert disaster. The payment of legal fees may have an opportunity cost for the Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, eljaggo said: I know it sounds churlish, but would the benefactor underwriting the legal fees not be more effective if their money was used to bolster our finances by say the purchase of newly issued shares. Woodstock's arguments seem persuasive to this non-lawyer, and given the uncertainty about our future cash-flow, extra money in our bank could avert disaster. The payment of legal fees may have an opportunity cost for the Club. Benefactors are entitled to get passionate and want to stick it right up them as much as anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: If we find ourselves in financial difficulty I think it’s safe to say that the SPFL and other clubs are going to show even less solidarity or willingness to assist if we’ve just forced them to spend six figures fighting a court case that doesn’t fundamentally change anything than if we keep it out the courts. Let’s be honest almost no one was saying “I’m not going to Thistle games anymore” when the Club put out its statement 48 hours ago and meant it and no fan has been induced to stay by some shady Hearts benefactor agreeing to underwrite our legal costs. What solidarity did the leagues and clubs show towards Gretna, Clydebank, Airdrie and even Rangers. None. Even with Caley in its current position they attempted to blackmail them into voting Lawell way. They have taken a decision that puts the very livelihood and survival of our club in peril, with firstly voting to bring us down, then about to stop us competing. It’s now every man for themselves and frankly if this puts a dozen other clubs to the wall due to seasons not starting and funding being denied, then great. If it bankrupts the SPFL it’s self then that’s the bonus ball. We have been too nice for too long and it has gotten us nowhere. I don't want other clubs and their fans to like us, I want them to fear us. I hope a lot of these chairmen that shafted us for their own benefit are now panicking over us hopefully fatally shafting them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, Norgethistle said: What solidarity did the leagues and clubs show towards Gretna, Clydebank, Airdrie and even Rangers. None. Even with Caley in its current position they attempted to blackmail them into voting Lawell way. They have taken a decision that puts the very livelihood and survival of our club in peril, with firstly voting to bring us down, then about to stop us competing. It’s now every man for themselves and frankly if this puts a dozen other clubs to the wall due to seasons not starting and funding being denied, then great. If it bankrupts the SPFL it’s self then that’s the bonus ball. We have been too nice for too long and it has gotten us nowhere. I don't want other clubs and their fans to like us, I want them to fear us. I hope a lot of these chairmen that shafted us for their own benefit are now panicking over us hopefully fatally shafting them. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 If this does drag on through the courts, we might be able to maintain the 50 year record 1921 - Scottish Cup 1971 - League Cup 2021 - Court case 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, jaggy said: Have you contacted the club with your concerns or are you just bitching on a forum? 5 more pages of drivel where 1 person claims to know more or better than others I’m happy just to bitch because it won’t make the slightest bit of difference to how the Club behaves. 17 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: How is it going to cost other clubs anything if we have no chance of winning ? They would be awarded costs, so if we lose, as you are confident that we will, then it costs the other clubs nothing. Because a costs order might be limited, and they still have to fund the legal challenge up front. And, to reiterate, even if we are legally successful in (e.g.) having the resolution annulled they will still seek to retake the decision without procedural defects, leaving us back to square one but with more money spent on lawyers. 17 minutes ago, allyo said: I take your point. If it is genuinely and unequivocally futile from a legal perspective then the courts shouldn't be being troubled. I don't know whether that is the case but you seem convinced. But, given the strength of feeling, if it had emerged that Thistle had been offered legal costs to pursue this and had refused, I think it would have been the end of us. We have the covid crisis, an unjust relegation, fellow clubs and member organisation happy to burden us with all of their problems, and on top of that you'd have a furious fanbase being fed the final straw that we'd been offered a lifeline and rolled over. In a sense your argument is a moral one. Whether legal action is justified or not is largely irrelevant, the club had no choice but to pursue this. It could have chosen not to pursue this and to prepare accordingly. 15 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: And what is so fundamentally different in the Scottish legal system that makes us a no hope of success, but Belgian and French clubs in the same situation win ? Because the substance of the law is different in the different countries, and the corporate structures and governance are also not the same. And, as I hasten to add again, the Belgian competition authority’s opinion is being challenged in the Belgian courts. 8 minutes ago, javeajag said: No we don’t and are choosing not to.....you want us to be just about the inky club in Scotland who sacrifices themselves for the greater good of Scottish football .....well no thanks Scottish football.....no leadership, no brand , no strategy , no sponsor it’s just a joke Litigation won’t solve any of these problems. 8 minutes ago, eljaggo said: I know it sounds churlish, but would the benefactor underwriting the legal fees not be more effective if their money was used to bolster our finances by say the purchase of newly issued shares. Woodstock's arguments seem persuasive to this non-lawyer, and given the uncertainty about our future cash-flow, extra money in our bank could avert disaster. The payment of legal fees may have an opportunity cost for the Club. Exactly this. So ask yourself why this person wants to fund the legal fees but not just our coffers generally to bolster our survival in these uncertain times. It’s probably because we are being used to add ballast to a hopeless legal case for Hearts, who want to be able to argue they’re not just bitter that they were shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, eljaggo said: I know it sounds churlish, but would the benefactor underwriting the legal fees not be more effective if their money was used to bolster our finances by say the purchase of newly issued shares. Woodstock's arguments seem persuasive to this non-lawyer, and given the uncertainty about our future cash-flow, extra money in our bank could avert disaster. The payment of legal fees may have an opportunity cost for the Club. Would a legal team (or two) take this on with no chance of winning it or at least getting a settlement before court? As it stands the courts are backed up, this may not get seen till October or later, if we have an injunction in place waiting on a decision, the pressure then goes onto the SPFL via the member clubs who’s income from TV money has stopped. We can ride it out longer than many more clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: It could have chosen not to pursue this and to prepare accordingly Not without seriously damaging the club in the eyes of its own fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: What solidarity did the leagues and clubs show towards Gretna, Clydebank, Airdrie and even Rangers. None. I mean they literally made loans to Gretna that were never paid back to help them fulfil fixtures but ho hum. 4 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Even with Caley in its current position they attempted to blackmail them into voting Lawell way. They have taken a decision that puts the very livelihood and survival of our club in peril, with firstly voting to bring us down, then about to stop us competing. It’s now every man for themselves and frankly if this puts a dozen other clubs to the wall due to seasons not starting and funding being denied, then great. If it bankrupts the SPFL it’s self then that’s the bonus ball. We have been too nice for too long and it has gotten us nowhere. I don't want other clubs and their fans to like us, I want them to fear us. I hope a lot of these chairmen that shafted us for their own benefit are now panicking over us hopefully fatally shafting them. I’m afraid I just don’t share that philosophy. If we become just like them there’s no point in us existing: there’s no point in Scottish Football existing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Would a legal team (or two) take this on with no chance of winning it or at least getting a settlement before court? Yes of course. Billable hours, paid regardless of result. This ain’t no win no fee. 3 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: As it stands the courts are backed up, this may not get seen till October or later, if we have an injunction in place waiting on a decision, the pressure then goes onto the SPFL via the member clubs who’s income from TV money has stopped. We can ride it out longer than many more clubs Playing brinkmanship through the courts with the entire existence of the Scottish football League for a wing and a prayer at overturning an outcome chosen by a majority of the clubs during a pandemic just stinks. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag36 Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, dl1971 said: It appears we have QCs on this forum, or is the legal points made on a wholly amateur basis. How anyone can predict what the legal argument may consist of is beyond me? Like most I could not care less of the goodwill ( sic ) of any of our opponents. If we fight and lose what exactly do the nay sayers think will happen to make our position any worse than it already is. Had no idea there were so many great legal minds on this forum either. Been going to games for about 30 years and im so disillusioned ( not suprised) with the greed and self interest that Scottish Football has responded to this crisis with I don't think I can watch a game in the same way again. Totally happy for Thistle & co to drag this through the courts now. Even if nothing more is achieved than to inconvience a lot of people and expose the failings of clubs and the SPFL along the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Litigation won’t solve any of these problems. Yes it would if successful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: I mean they literally made loans to Gretna that were never paid back to help them fulfil fixtures but ho hum. No they never. They brought forward the end of season payments only to ensure they could fulfill their fixtures as it would have messed up the league final standings as previous games would have been null and void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, javeajag said: Yes it would if successful No it wouldn’t. Annulling the decision would not stop us from being relegated. It would only require the matter to be revisited. It provides nothing even remotely close to a guarantee of a different substantive result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Woodstock Jag said: Playing brinkmanship through the courts with the entire existence of the Scottish football League for a wing and a prayer at overturning an outcome chosen by a majority of the clubs during a pandemic just stinks. Sorry. Look ... we are the victims here ... the bad guys are the spfl who rushed in with no strategy and scant consideration for the implications of their actions we are not doing anything other than trying to protect our interests which is exactly what they are doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Norgethistle said: No they never. They brought forward the end of season payments only to ensure they could fulfill their fixtures as it would have messed up the league final standings as previous games would have been null and void. For accounting purposes it was a credit facility. It was money made available that was not repaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, Woodstock Jag said: No it wouldn’t. Annulling the decision would not stop us from being relegated. It would only require the matter to be revisited. It provides nothing even remotely close to a guarantee of a different substantive result. Again your powers to predict the future are boundless ... you don’t know what will happen if the vote is annulled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, javeajag said: Look ... we are the victims here ... the bad guys are the spfl who rushed in with no strategy and scant consideration for the implications of their actions we are not doing anything other than trying to protect our interests which is exactly what they are doing All I’m saying is that the act of trying to protect our interests is extremely likely to be futile and that we might make things worse along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Yes of course. Billable hours, paid regardless of result. This ain’t no win no fee. Playing brinkmanship through the courts with the entire existence of the Scottish football League for a wing and a prayer at overturning an outcome chosen by a majority of the clubs during a pandemic just stinks. Sorry. Lawyers (except defense ones) generally will not take a case with no chance of winning as it damages their reputation. Playing brinkmanship, what exactly has the SPFL and its members done during and pandemic done if it’s not that. They have increased financial hardship by forced relegation, by calling the season early(Scottish cup semi final is ok to play though), and bully tactics to get their self centered selfish result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: All I’m saying is that the act of trying to protect our interests is extremely likely to be futile and that we might make things worse along the way. Maybe and maybe not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: For accounting purposes it was a credit facility. It was money made available that was not repaid. It was an advance on their prize money, call it an advance in wages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Lawyers (except defense ones) generally will not take a case with no chance of winning as it damages their reputation. Not true. Lawyers may give a view on what they believe the prospects of success are. But if the client proceeds anyway perfectly common for them then to represent them regardless, if the price is right. 2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Playing brinkmanship, what exactly has the SPFL and its members done during and pandemic done if it’s not that. They have increased financial hardship by forced relegation, by calling the season early(Scottish cup semi final is ok to play though), and bully tactics to get their self centered selfish result No one here is saying that what the SPFL has done is fair or right. But it’s not an excuse for doing the wrong thing or stupid things. Legal action in this instance is, in my view, both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted June 17, 2020 Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: No it wouldn’t. Annulling the decision would not stop us from being relegated. It would only require the matter to be revisited. It provides nothing even remotely close to a guarantee of a different substantive result. That would depend on what the judge says. If he says it is illegal to relegate a club before the predetermined number of fixtures are fulfilled, then yes it would. I'm not saying that is likely, but you can't say it is impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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