Norgethistle Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, BowenBoys said: Over 2,000 fans at home games. Less than 500 subscribers. Where is the sales pitch? Where are the updates? Where is the engagement with subscribers and potential subscribers? I'm not sure that you can deduce from this that the fans aren't interested in fan ownership. It's clear to me though that the Foundation isn't doing itself any favours. I'm still in but beginning to wonder where this is going. I’ve tried to engage, asked questions had calls, submitted ideas but I hear nothing coming back. I’ve tried to stay positive to stay patient but there comes a point when I realize I don’t agree with the direction (none) philosophy (secret) or ethos (no due diligence) of what’s there. I don’t know if it’s the foundation that’s the issue, some members or 3BC /The Club as nothing is transmitted back to us members. I hate to say it but I feel we’re being taken for mugs now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 The silence from the Foundation in response to issues like due diligence and the Club running at a loss is worrying. The lack of engagement & answers means fans are losing confidence in the project. What would it take a member of the Foundation to come on here and offer an update & reassurance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) Not just here sandy. I'm sure the wider fanbase shares these concerns. There should be regular communication to all fans. The last I saw was an update on the pandemic fundraiser GoFundMe page. The lack of recruitment drive leaves me wondering why I should continue to pay in to this. Where is it leading to? Edited March 22, 2022 by BowenBoys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 hours ago, sandy said: The silence from the Foundation in response to issues like due diligence and the Club running at a loss is worrying. The lack of engagement & answers means fans are losing confidence in the project. What would it take a member of the Foundation to come on here and offer an update & reassurance? Or maybe contact the paid-up members either by e-mail or on the Jags Foundation web-site. Things are heading the way of the Jags Trust, the only communication from them being the annual renewal of subs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 8 hours ago, jlsarmy said: And the template for our future is … This is a good point. This is why in fan ownership situations one of the key things to agree is the working together protocols. Then fans can see where their areas of influence are. There are some fantastic templates around with excellent examples and so TJF do not have to reinvent the wheel. I think that would really bring this to life for fans. I see no reason why the protocols relevant to a club - for example with 54 per cent fan ownership - would not be relevant to one with 55 per cent (ignoring for the moment the other supporter share holdings). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 3 hours ago, sandy said: The silence from the Foundation in response to issues like due diligence and the Club running at a loss is worrying. The lack of engagement & answers means fans are losing confidence in the project. What would it take a member of the Foundation to come on here and offer an update & reassurance? When I was involved I often answered queries raised on here to the extent I could. A members organisation needs to be accessible, honest and transparent. Leaving share ownership aside, that is what the jags foundation is, a membership organisation. The people involved are giving their precious time freely to this but to ask for more engagement in February and then not answer emails from Norge (and others) by March is now meaning they risk losing members rather than growing members. Members are the lifeblood of a members organisation, not an inconvenience. My entirely personal view is of you are being transparent and honest with your members, emails are easy to answer. If you are taking the Clintonesque approach to communication “I did not have sex with that woman”, “I did not inhale”, and you use phrases like “a form of due diligence” everything will take longer to find the right words when there is a simple transparent and honest response that they could give instead. Fwiw, I totally agree about due diligence, it’s the main reason I am no longer involved. However leaving professional standards to one side, as a member I am more interested in the progress to wards agreeing the working together protocols that a shareholding of this size ought to be able to expect 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 I know javeajag hates speculation so here are some facts. Facts I have previously shared in even more detail with TJF 11 clubs below premier league level have published 2 years accounts impacted by covid 10 have increased their cash reserves substantially over that period . 1 has decreased their cash reserves. The one - the single one - who has reduced their cash reserves ALSO got 500k from a source none of the others did (tbc). It was fundamental to fan ownership that the club was being run on a sustainable breakeven basis. Do not get me wrong I am thankful that TBC have put that money into the club but it’s not because of covid it was required as evidenced by the other clubs accounts. it seems to me that other clubs now have a fighting fund of increased cash due to the covid dividend. for the record, I have no knowledge other then what is in the public domain. I am also very happy to reproduce the full analysis I provided TJf with here if anyone is interested. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Thanks @jaf, I would be interested to see the financial analysis you have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 hours ago, jaf said: I know javeajag hates speculation so here are some facts. Facts I have previously shared in even more detail with TJF 11 clubs below premier league level have published 2 years accounts impacted by covid 10 have increased their cash reserves substantially over that period . 1 has decreased their cash reserves. The one - the single one - who has reduced their cash reserves ALSO got 500k from a source none of the others did (tbc). It was fundamental to fan ownership that the club was being run on a sustainable breakeven basis. Do not get me wrong I am thankful that TBC have put that money into the club but it’s not because of covid it was required as evidenced by the other clubs accounts. it seems to me that other clubs now have a fighting fund of increased cash due to the covid dividend. for the record, I have no knowledge other then what is in the public domain. I am also very happy to reproduce the full analysis I provided TJf with here if anyone is interested. Many clubs increased their reserves due to larger covid and other support…….with a current turnover of £2.2m …..how much could we put into reserves ? Not that much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 38 minutes ago, javeajag said: Many clubs increased their reserves due to larger covid and other support…….with a current turnover of £2.2m …..how much could we put into reserves ? Not that much How many of the 11 clubs mentioned below premier league would have a larger turnover than us? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 29 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: How many of the 11 clubs mentioned below premier league would have a larger turnover than us? Some not all…..but what’s your point ? The club is spending more than its revenue and was let off the hook by 3BC - you speculate but don’t actually know - and unless you know the financial details of all other clubs it’s your usual speculation…..but why don’t you star with kilmarnock …. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 39 minutes ago, javeajag said: Some not all…..but what’s your point ? The club is spending more than its revenue and was let off the hook by 3BC - you speculate but don’t actually know - and unless you know the financial details of all other clubs it’s your usual speculation…..but why don’t you star with kilmarnock …. Why would he start with Kilmarnock? That's their problem, his concern is Partick Thistle FC. Your deflection is incredibly blinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 15 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: Why would he start with Kilmarnock? That's their problem, his concern is Partick Thistle FC. Your deflection is incredibly blinding. Because he referenced 11 other clubs possibly ……there is no deflection ….if you know something tells us if not carry on moaning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, javeajag said: Because he referenced 11 other clubs possibly ……there is no deflection ….if you know something tells us if not carry on moaning We have been spending over £700k more than we were bringing in (without handouts) over last 2 sets of accounts. That is my issue. And as you are so keen on the £2 million turnover, frankly that level of over spend as a percentage of turnover is appalling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 If your speculation is correct then the club is insolvent and the directors should take the appropriate action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, javeajag said: If your speculation is correct then the club is insolvent and the directors should take the appropriate action. Read the accounts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Just now, Norgethistle said: Read the accounts He doesn't want to know the truth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 11 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Read the accounts I have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: He doesn't want to know the truth! Which is ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, javeajag said: Which is ? Just read Norgethistle' comments and you may see what's happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 29 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: Just read Norgethistle' comments and you may see what's happening. I have and I just said if his speculation is correct that the club is running a £700k cash flow deficit then we are technically cash flow insolvent given £700k on a £2.2m turnover …. Not sure you actually understand though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, javeajag said: I have and I just said if his speculation is correct that the club is running a £700k cash flow deficit then we are technically cash flow insolvent given £700k on a £2.2m turnover …. Not sure you actually understand though It’s not speculation to see the money put into Thistle by 3BC on the accounts. Without that, we would be in debt, ergo we are running at an operating deficit if you remove their support (which would be the case under fan ownership). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 45 minutes ago, javeajag said: I have and I just said if his speculation is correct that the club is running a £700k cash flow deficit then we are technically cash flow insolvent given £700k on a £2.2m turnover …. Not sure you actually understand though £700k over 2 years which you’d see in the books (less the £500k payment last year) if you had actually read them as you stated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, sandy said: It’s not speculation to see the money put into Thistle by 3BC on the accounts. Without that, we would be in debt, ergo we are running at an operating deficit if you remove their support (which would be the case under fan ownership). 1. You might know there is money that is come from 3BC but until evidence is presented is not a fact merely conjecture 2. you don’t know if we are running an operating deficit unless you have some evidence ? 3. you also don’t know if there will be any further support from 3BC after fan ownership ? easily proved by producing supporting documentation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: £700k over 2 years which you’d see in the books (less the £500k payment last year) if you had actually read them as you stated Look I get sent the accounts …..your the one that stated it was £700k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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