Club AGM

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I honestly give up with you Jim.

There is no point in me engaging with you because you repeatedly ignore or misunderstand the context in which comments are made.

You personalise and catastrophise absolutely everything.

You’ve already made your mind up about people, some of whom haven’t even been in the door three months.

You’ve misrepresented the nature of TJF’s support/opposition and involvement in decisions. You’ve repeatedly said things that have turned out not to be true, or to be a very incomplete account of what actually happened.

You’ve swallowed hook line and sinker a bizarre interpretation of “the German Model” which was literally a term of phrase used to describe a new legal protection of the majority shareholding that didn’t exist before. 51% is a floor, not a target, for the fan ownership shareholding. Any dilution will be voted on by the beneficiaries and will not happen if they object.

You are, quite simply, lying when you say that “TJF have no questions to ask”. We literally asked a detailed question at the AGM, on the thing you are concerned about.

You didn’t like the answer given to that question. We haven’t said anywhere what we think of that answer. You are, as always, jumping the gun and assuming the worst in people.

It is infuriating that you cannot see how the situation is different in January 2024 than it was in November 2022.

TJF (a) has Club Board representation (and therefore that person has access to confidential financial information including the management accounts of the company (b) is a trustee of an organisation that has the majority shareholding and (will shortly) have a legal agreement in place governing budgetary and spending approvals.

Precisely none of this was in place in November 2022.

The presentation to shareholders was described by someone sitting next to you at the AGM as like “night and day” compared to what the Club Board offered at the previous one. This was a shareholder who made an excellent point about the lack of due diligence done before the share transfer. That was a fair and balanced account of what happened at the AGM. Yours is not.

Frankly it is utterly exhausting and not a good use of my or anyone else’s time trying to engage with you on this, because the kernels of legitimate points on longer-term sustainability are lost in a web of inaccuracies and preconceived notions.

TJF funding of the Club is not the full answer (no one has suggested it is) but it is making a substantial material difference and is an entirely legitimate component of sustainably funding a fan owned football club.

If you don’t believe this, you’re frankly in the company of Jacqui Low and Peter Shand, who made clear to TJF in the summer of 2022 that the Club neither needed nor wanted fan fundraising to be a part of the budget.

Your £175K should be a massive boost to getting Players that will make us a Successful Club -instead its being used to prop the Club up -as its not run on breakeven - you want success -go get a Board that can deliver it

What is inaccurate about pointing out that there are actually Zero plans to Grow your Key Revenue of increasing Fans at the Game - What is inaccurate about pointing out that for all the HGT PR -actually improving Facilities for Female Fans that might encourage more to attend ( If you actually had someone remotely interested in Fan Growth they would identify Toilet Facilities are actually a high priority for attracting Female Fans ) - but it isn't even considered ? Shocking !! 

But Hospitality Facilities and 71 Club improvements are a Priority ? 

The Numbers are simple - Ticket Revenue vs Hospitality / Commercial Revenue is circa 70/30 split 

You Grow the Fanbase by 10% its a changes the whole Finances of the Club - but all the resource is on the 30% part of the Revenue - TJF should be asking why 

Your supposed to be a Fans Organisation - maybe start standing up for them -as opposed to being the defenders of the Board - its actually difficult to differentiate these days 

Aye No bother - Im the same as Jlo 

How dare I disagree with TJF and the Board

 

 

 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

A quick Google away:

Average Home League attendance 2022-23: 3127

Average Home League attendance 2023-24 so far: 3470

An 11% improvement.

Nuff said.

[javeajag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I honestly give up with you Jim.

There is no point in me engaging with you because you repeatedly ignore or misunderstand the context in which comments are made.

You personalise and catastrophise absolutely everything.

You’ve already made your mind up about people, some of whom haven’t even been in the door three months.

You’ve misrepresented the nature of TJF’s support/opposition and involvement in decisions. You’ve repeatedly said things that have turned out not to be true, or to be a very incomplete account of what actually happened.

You’ve swallowed hook line and sinker a bizarre interpretation of “the German Model” which was literally a term of phrase used to describe a new legal protection of the majority shareholding that didn’t exist before. 51% is a floor, not a target, for the fan ownership shareholding. Any dilution will be voted on by the beneficiaries and will not happen if they object.

You are, quite simply, lying when you say that “TJF have no questions to ask”. We literally asked a detailed question at the AGM, on the thing you are concerned about.

You didn’t like the answer given to that question. We haven’t said anywhere what we think of that answer. You are, as always, jumping the gun and assuming the worst in people.

It is infuriating that you cannot see how the situation is different in January 2024 than it was in November 2022.

TJF (a) has Club Board representation (and therefore that person has access to confidential financial information including the management accounts of the company (b) is a trustee of an organisation that has the majority shareholding and (will shortly) have a legal agreement in place governing budgetary and spending approvals.

Precisely none of this was in place in November 2022.

The presentation to shareholders was described by someone sitting next to you at the AGM as like “night and day” compared to what the Club Board offered at the previous one. This was a shareholder who made an excellent point about the lack of due diligence done before the share transfer. That was a fair and balanced account of what happened at the AGM. Yours is not.

Frankly it is utterly exhausting and not a good use of my or anyone else’s time trying to engage with you on this, because the kernels of legitimate points on longer-term sustainability are lost in a web of inaccuracies and preconceived notions.

TJF funding of the Club is not the full answer (no one has suggested it is) but it is making a substantial material difference and is an entirely legitimate component of sustainably funding a fan owned football club.

If you don’t believe this, you’re frankly in the company of Jacqui Low and Peter Shand, who made clear to TJF in the summer of 2022 that the Club neither needed nor wanted fan fundraising to be a part of the budget.

Have you signed an NDA ?

[Jordanhill Jag]

51 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

A quick Google away:

Average Home League attendance 2022-23: 3127

Average Home League attendance 2023-24 so far: 3470

An 11% improvement.

Nuff said.

For at least half of 22-23 Fans had become disillusioned with the Club and has stopped coming - there was a large bounce from the Play Offs which kept going into this Season- so it had zero to do with Club Strategy 

Anyway - its a case of “ nothing to see here- please move along” the Grown Ups on TJF & Club Board have it under control 

( As long as there is Money from America) 

and we will promote nice PR Stunts like HGT -but dont dare ask for decent Female Toilets -as the Adults on the TJF & Club Boards don't think its important - just keep paying your money 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

1 minute ago, javeajag said:

Have you signed an NDA ?

No I haven't.

Who signed NDAs?

As we have said, several times, the two individuals who signed NDAs are Sandy Fyfe (no longer a TJF director) and Andrew Holloway (still a TJF director). Those were signed in the context of the process of financial disclosure and investment proposals, when it became clear in late 2022/early 2023 that the old Club Board's presentation of the financial position was considerably at odds with the reality.

They (and various others involved in investment discussions) were given access to financial information under NDAs that would not normally be put in the public domain for reasons of commercial sensitivity (management accounts, for example). TJF deliberately confined this exercise to NDAs for only two directors precisely so that the rest of us could speak more freely if needed.

Other confidentiality obligations

Additionally, Andrew Holloway was privy to information in his capacity as a Club Director, which would not otherwise have been available to him. As with any director or former director of a company, he owes continuing fiduciary duties in respect of confidential information, including commercially sensitive information, which would only be shared by the Club by express agreement.

The same also applies to Stuart Callison, who has as of less than 4 days ago taken on the position of Club Director.

It should therefore be obvious that the rest of the TJF Board has less information about the day-to-day financial decisions of the Football Club than those on the Club Board. That is entirely appropriate in a fan-owned, not fan-run Football Club.

Greater information sharing

There will be some information the Club has to share with the Trustees, under the Club-Trust Agreement, which it is currently under no legal obligation to share. This includes:

• the draft budget, strategic plan and business plan (from season 2024-25 onwards)
• any contract of quantum greater than £50kpa (excluding playing staff)
• any major proposals to borrow (whether secured or unsecured) otherwise than in the ordinary course of business
• any proposal to buy or sell land, or take out any lease of greater than 5 years
• the prospectus of any proposal to issue new shares

This provides the governance structure that makes budgetary and long-term financial accountability credible and sustainable.

[Norgethistle]

19 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

For at least half of 22-23 Fans had become disillusioned with the Club and has stopped coming - there was a large bounce from the Play Offs which kept going into this Season- so it had zero to do with Club Strategy 

Anyway - its a case of “ nothing to see here- please move along” the Grown Ups on TJF & Club Board have it under control 

( As long as there is Money from America) 

and we will promote nice PR Stunts like HGT -but dont dare ask for decent Female Toilets -as the Adults on the TJF & Club Boards don't think its important - just keep paying your money 

 

Jim you were at the AGM I believe they also mentioned season ticket numbers are up over 10% this year compared to last so that shows better forecastable income.

the point in toilets is fair, but directly does not generate more cash, better and more usage of hospitality areas (especially outside match day), does.

The club had to seek external funding to plug gaps, have cash flow and to put into projects that would hopefully generate more revenue otherwise we’d go out of business or have to cut budget so much we’d be at wrong end of table which would see lower crowds, lower revenue and greater impact on cash flows.

This is the start of a stability process that isn’t fixed over night. The income from investment allows to keep playing side attractive to fans without also having to decimate the operations side effectively impacting match day experience. 

It needs time, and if you think any of TJF are not challenging the board you couldn’t be further from the facts. We challenge when it’s needed but we also support when needed too.

[javeajag]

30 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

No I haven't.

Who signed NDAs?

As we have said, several times, the two individuals who signed NDAs are Sandy Fyfe (no longer a TJF director) and Andrew Holloway (still a TJF director). Those were signed in the context of the process of financial disclosure and investment proposals, when it became clear in late 2022/early 2023 that the old Club Board's presentation of the financial position was considerably at odds with the reality.

They (and various others involved in investment discussions) were given access to financial information under NDAs that would not normally be put in the public domain for reasons of commercial sensitivity (management accounts, for example). TJF deliberately confined this exercise to NDAs for only two directors precisely so that the rest of us could speak more freely if needed.

Other confidentiality obligations

Additionally, Andrew Holloway was privy to information in his capacity as a Club Director, which would not otherwise have been available to him. As with any director or former director of a company, he owes continuing fiduciary duties in respect of confidential information, including commercially sensitive information, which would only be shared by the Club by express agreement.

The same also applies to Stuart Callison, who has as of less than 4 days ago taken on the position of Club Director.

It should therefore be obvious that the rest of the TJF Board has less information about the day-to-day financial decisions of the Football Club than those on the Club Board. That is entirely appropriate in a fan-owned, not fan-run Football Club.

Greater information sharing

There will be some information the Club has to share with the Trustees, under the Club-Trust Agreement, which it is currently under no legal obligation to share. This includes:

• the draft budget, strategic plan and business plan (from season 2024-25 onwards)
• any contract of quantum greater than £50kpa (excluding playing staff)
• any major proposals to borrow (whether secured or unsecured) otherwise than in the ordinary course of business
• any proposal to buy or sell land, or take out any lease of greater than 5 years
• the prospectus of any proposal to issue new shares

This provides the governance structure that makes budgetary and long-term financial accountability credible and sustainable.

This ‘reasons of commercial sensitivity’ covers just about anything you want it to ……I’m not sure what it’s meant to protect beyond an existing requirement on confidentiality on directors.

[Woodstock Jag]

9 minutes ago, javeajag said:

This ‘reasons of commercial sensitivity’ covers just about anything you want it to ……I’m not sure what it’s meant to protect beyond an existing requirement on confidentiality on directors.

The NDAs were signed (according to my records) some point between January and February of 2023 (I don't have the exact date to hand). They were entered into by two individuals that were not, at that point, Directors of the football club. Therefore they were not bound by the general obligations of confidentiality of directors. Obviously Andrew subsequently joining the Club Board in mid-June changed his relationship with the Club, to a much cleaner one with directors' duties.

Are you suggesting that the Club should have shared confidential financial information with third parties which, at that point, had no legal relationship with any shareholding in the football club and no representation on the Club Board? Not having a go here; I'm genuinely asking here as I do not understand what point you are making. Just because the Club is a small business doesn't mean that there aren't really obvious commercial sensitivities around aspects of its financial position.

The purpose of those NDAs was to facilitate the sharing of confidential financial information beyond the Club's Directors and CEO. Without it, TJF (and others) would not have received any of that information.

The financial disclosure exercise that happened in June would have been entirely on the initiative and terms of the Football Club Board. TJF would have been completely unable to provide additional insight and commentary in a timely way. We'd have had to rely exclusively on the draft Accounts published a few weeks ago, some six months after the fact, just like everyone else.

What should have been done differently?

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Jim you were at the AGM I believe they also mentioned season ticket numbers are up over 10% this year compared to last so that shows better forecastable income.

the point in toilets is fair, but directly does not generate more cash, better and more usage of hospitality areas (especially outside match day), does.

The club had to seek external funding to plug gaps, have cash flow and to put into projects that would hopefully generate more revenue otherwise we’d go out of business or have to cut budget so much we’d be at wrong end of table which would see lower crowds, lower revenue and greater impact on cash flows.

This is the start of a stability process that isn’t fixed over night. The income from investment allows to keep playing side attractive to fans without also having to decimate the operations side effectively impacting match day experience. 

It needs time, and if you think any of TJF are not challenging the board you couldn’t be further from the facts. We challenge when it’s needed but we also support when needed too.

Yes I was at the AGM-  10% Growth in Season Ticket Sales does not equate to increased Revenue - simply Regular attenders purchased upfront - it helps Cashflow early in the Season & Signings - not much else 

Ref the Toilets - See here is the problem - TJF have bought into this "Hospitality & Sponsorship" is the Growth Area Chat Hook Line & Sinker - OK how is spending Money on Hospitality Areas & the 71 Club Going to Increase income -If So by how much - what is the return period for that capital expenditure - I take it a Cost Benefit Analysis was carried out ? Or was it simply someones opinion ? 

Let me explain some Commercial Reality  ( and as Half the Board are Reading this - feel Free to lift and  pass it off as your own Strategy 🙂)

Hospitality - lets say its averaging 60% Capacity over the Season - that's circa 120 People - max available Growth is 80 People - As it only holds circa 200

So we get another 80 People for 20 Games at around £85 exc VAT 

But we have a Meal - Free Bar - Waiting Staff - Catering - other Staff-  PA announcer - Sales & Marketing Overhead etc etc etc all to pay for - its resource heavy  - so actual Revenue is nearer £45 - BUT the majority of those going go to the Games anyway - so you have moved the £22 Matchday Entrance - over to Hospitality Revenue numbers - all your Doing is shuffling around Money from your existing Customer base with a small uplift-  after all your overhead is taken off - so the actual impact on the overall bottom line isn't that much - its not "New Money " 

So Reality its 20 Games  x 80 people x £45 Profit  - £22 Match Ticket   = £40,480.00 ( Figures are for demo purposes - but they are not far away ) 

OK So lets Look at Fan Revenue 

We have a Stadium - lets say we average 3500 Per Home Game - now if its 3500 or 6000 Fans - your  overhead remains the same  - as you have the same overhead due to H&S Turnstyles Stewarding etc 

You increase average attendances by 10%  - its straight profit 350 People x £22 Matchday Ticket  x 20 Games = £154,000.00 

Now your Running at Breakeven over the Season 

So back to the Toilets - Research shows that Clean & Decent Toilets are a High Priority for Female Fans - our % of Female Fans is relatively low - so with the right Marketing & Strategy there is opportunity to grow - another 350 doesn't seem an impossible number 

Your opportunity for Growth via increased Fans is circa another 5000 available seats  - Your Opportunity for Growth in Hospitality is 80 available Seats  - you may open up other Hospitality Areas but there is significant refurb Costs - Refurbing the Ladies Toilets isn't anywhere near expensive   

So Your Welcome🙂- Two Minutes & I just removed the forecasted loss of £150K for this Season & made refurbishing the Ladies Toilets a priority - where before no one on the Club Board or TJF Board were remotely interested - now HGT will need to take action ref the Ladies Toilets  

      

   

 

    

[javeajag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

The NDAs were signed (according to my records) some point between January and February of 2023 (I don't have the exact date to hand). They were entered into by two individuals that were not, at that point, Directors of the football club. Therefore they were not bound by the general obligations of confidentiality of directors. Obviously Andrew subsequently joining the Club Board in mid-June changed his relationship with the Club, to a much cleaner one with directors' duties.

Are you suggesting that the Club should have shared confidential financial information with third parties which, at that point, had no legal relationship with any shareholding in the football club and no representation on the Club Board? Not having a go here; I'm genuinely asking here as I do not understand what point you are making. Just because the Club is a small business doesn't mean that there aren't really obvious commercial sensitivities around aspects of its financial position.

The purpose of those NDAs was to facilitate the sharing of confidential financial information beyond the Club's Directors and CEO. Without it, TJF (and others) would not have received any of that information.

The financial disclosure exercise that happened in June would have been entirely on the initiative and terms of the Football Club Board. TJF would have been completely unable to provide additional insight and commentary in a timely way. We'd have had to rely exclusively on the draft Accounts published a few weeks ago, some six months after the fact, just like everyone else.

What should have been done differently?

NDAs are vastly over rated, rarely enforced and generally over used. What bad thing woukd have happened if they were not used.

[Woodstock Jag]

5 minutes ago, javeajag said:

NDAs are vastly over rated, rarely enforced and generally over used. What bad thing would have happened if they were not used.

TJF, and others, wouldn't have been given access by the Club Board to the detailed financial information necessary to facilitate:

• the financial disclosure people like you were (correctly) demanding throughout the first half of 2023
• any meaningful investment process, without which the Football Club would have become insolvent and defaulted on player wages

A bi-product of this could also have been that the PTFC Trust and TJF didn't build-up a trusting working relationship over that period.

The consequences of that could have been that the fan ownership roadmap fell through. Causing massive instability and uncertainty at the football club while Doolan was trying to get us into, and then through, the play-offs.

It's very easy to be against NDAs in the abstract. We didn't like that Sandy and Andrew needed to sign them. But they were the price that had to be paid for disclosure and to get in the room to be part of the solution.

Edited January 15 by Woodstock Jag

[javeajag]

4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

TJF, and others, wouldn't have been given access by the Club Board to the detailed financial information necessary to facilitate:

• the financial disclosure people like you were (correctly) demanding throughout the first half of 2023
• any meaningful investment process, without which the Football Club would have become insolvent and defaulted on player wages

A bi-product of this could also have been that the PTFC Trust and TJF didn't build-up a trusting working relationship over that period.

The consequences of that could have been that the fan ownership roadmap fell through. Causing massive instability and uncertainty at the football club while Doolan was trying to get us into, and then through, the play-offs.

It's very easy to be against NDAs in the abstract. We didn't like that Sandy and Andrew needed to sign them. But they were the price that had to be paid for disclosure and to get in the room to be part of the solution.

That tells you a lot about the club board and whether they would have held on to that position in the event of a refusal to sign is another matter.

[Norgethistle]

16 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes I was at the AGM-  10% Growth in Season Ticket Sales does not equate to increased Revenue - simply Regular attenders purchased upfront - it helps Cashflow early in the Season & Signings - not much else 

Ref the Toilets - See here is the problem - TJF have bought into this "Hospitality & Sponsorship" is the Growth Area Chat Hook Line & Sinker - OK how is spending Money on Hospitality Areas & the 71 Club Going to Increase income -If So by how much - what is the return period for that capital expenditure - I take it a Cost Benefit Analysis was carried out ? Or was it simply someones opinion ? 

Let me explain some Commercial Reality  ( and as Half the Board are Reading this - feel Free to lift and  pass it off as your own Strategy 🙂)

Hospitality - lets say its averaging 60% Capacity over the Season - that's circa 120 People - max available Growth is 80 People - As it only holds circa 200

So we get another 80 People for 20 Games at around £85 exc VAT 

But we have a Meal - Free Bar - Waiting Staff - Catering - other Staff-  PA announcer - Sales & Marketing Overhead etc etc etc all to pay for - its resource heavy  - so actual Revenue is nearer £45 - BUT the majority of those going go to the Games anyway - so you have moved the £22 Matchday Entrance - over to Hospitality Revenue numbers - all your Doing is shuffling around Money from your existing Customer base with a small uplift-  after all your overhead is taken off - so the actual impact on the overall bottom line isn't that much - its not "New Money " 

So Reality its 20 Games  x 80 people x £45 Profit  - £22 Match Ticket   = £40,480.00 ( Figures are for demo purposes - but they are not far away ) 

OK So lets Look at Fan Revenue 

We have a Stadium - lets say we average 3500 Per Home Game - now if its 3500 or 6000 Fans - your  overhead remains the same  - as you have the same overhead due to H&S Turnstyles Stewarding etc 

You increase average attendances by 10%  - its straight profit 350 People x £22 Matchday Ticket  x 20 Games = £154,000.00 

Now your Running at Breakeven over the Season 

So back to the Toilets - Research shows that Clean & Decent Toilets are a High Priority for Female Fans - our % of Female Fans is relatively low - so with the right Marketing & Strategy there is opportunity to grow - another 350 doesn't seem an impossible number 

Your opportunity for Growth via increased Fans is circa another 5000 available seats  - Your Opportunity for Growth in Hospitality is 80 available Seats  - you may open up other Hospitality Areas but there is significant refurb Costs - Refurbing the Ladies Toilets isn't anywhere near expensive   

So Your Welcome🙂- Two Minutes & I just removed the forecasted loss of £150K for this Season & made refurbishing the Ladies Toilets a priority - where before no one on the Club Board or TJF Board were remotely interested - now HGT will need to take action ref the Ladies Toilets  

      

   

 

    

Jim if hospitality suites can be used more than twice a month as they stated they are looking into then that could double or treble the hospitality revenue.

Gaining or retaining fans is of course where we all want to get to, results on the park help more than anything else on that matter hence not butchering the budget completely.

Season ticket means guaranteed income, not hoping we get those extra 300 walk up fans, they have already paid and hopefully they bring friends. 
 

Im not disagreeing with fixing toilets, they are overdue, but the other initiatives pay for these if done right

[Lenziejag]

3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Your £175K should be a massive boost to getting Players that will make us a Successful Club -instead its being used to prop the Club up -as its not run on breakeven - you want success -go get a Board that can deliver it

What is inaccurate about pointing out that there are actually Zero plans to Grow your Key Revenue of increasing Fans at the Game - What is inaccurate about pointing out that for all the HGT PR -actually improving Facilities for Female Fans that might encourage more to attend ( If you actually had someone remotely interested in Fan Growth they would identify Toilet Facilities are actually a high priority for attracting Female Fans ) - but it isn't even considered ? Shocking !! 

But Hospitality Facilities and 71 Club improvements are a Priority ? 

The Numbers are simple - Ticket Revenue vs Hospitality / Commercial Revenue is circa 70/30 split 

You Grow the Fanbase by 10% its a changes the whole Finances of the Club - but all the resource is on the 30% part of the Revenue - TJF should be asking why 

Your supposed to be a Fans Organisation - maybe start standing up for them -as opposed to being the defenders of the Board - its actually difficult to differentiate these days 

Aye No bother - Im the same as Jlo 

How dare I disagree with TJF and the Board

 

 

 

 

I don’t think you are listening to anything that has been said. We were in a mess financially and needed to stabilise.

The main way to get more fans to games is to win games consistently.

Having said that, the kids go free seems to have borne fruit.

Are the ticket numbers/Hospitality & Commercial Revenue split your assessment or from the AGM. Either way, on a turnover of 2.5M, I would question that. Last season we had about 70,000 through the gates(including the cups). Our portion of that was about 65,000. Allowing for VAT and concessions we would be lucky if we got £14 per ticket - that’s just over £900K. Unless a large number of the 65,000 are walk ups as opposed to ST, I can’t see it being anywhere near 70/30 split. 

[Woodstock Jag]

I'll be the first person to admit that TJF has made some mistakes along this journey.

But I hope this exchange illustrates the sometimes impossible position that TJF were put in at various points. It's extremely easy for Thistle's armchair generals, some of whom (like JJ) aren't even TJF members, to be gung-ho about what they would have done in our position.

They didn't have to build the relationships just to get in the room, let alone to get some influence over either the Trust or the Club Board. They didn't have to manage the expectations of many hundreds of fans, most of whom were giving an overriding message of urging TJF to be pragmatic and to make compromises on their behalf in the interests of unifying the fanbase.

If you think you can do better, stand for the Club Board representative positions later in 2024. Stand for election to the TJF Board. Your success will be everyone's success.

[Lenziejag]

34 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes I was at the AGM-  10% Growth in Season Ticket Sales does not equate to increased Revenue - simply Regular attenders purchased upfront - it helps Cashflow early in the Season & Signings - not much else 

Ref the Toilets - See here is the problem - TJF have bought into this "Hospitality & Sponsorship" is the Growth Area Chat Hook Line & Sinker - OK how is spending Money on Hospitality Areas & the 71 Club Going to Increase income -If So by how much - what is the return period for that capital expenditure - I take it a Cost Benefit Analysis was carried out ? Or was it simply someones opinion ? 

Let me explain some Commercial Reality  ( and as Half the Board are Reading this - feel Free to lift and  pass it off as your own Strategy 🙂)

Hospitality - lets say its averaging 60% Capacity over the Season - that's circa 120 People - max available Growth is 80 People - As it only holds circa 200

So we get another 80 People for 20 Games at around £85 exc VAT 

But we have a Meal - Free Bar - Waiting Staff - Catering - other Staff-  PA announcer - Sales & Marketing Overhead etc etc etc all to pay for - its resource heavy  - so actual Revenue is nearer £45 - BUT the majority of those going go to the Games anyway - so you have moved the £22 Matchday Entrance - over to Hospitality Revenue numbers - all your Doing is shuffling around Money from your existing Customer base with a small uplift-  after all your overhead is taken off - so the actual impact on the overall bottom line isn't that much - its not "New Money " 

So Reality its 20 Games  x 80 people x £45 Profit  - £22 Match Ticket   = £40,480.00 ( Figures are for demo purposes - but they are not far away ) 

OK So lets Look at Fan Revenue 

We have a Stadium - lets say we average 3500 Per Home Game - now if its 3500 or 6000 Fans - your  overhead remains the same  - as you have the same overhead due to H&S Turnstyles Stewarding etc 

You increase average attendances by 10%  - its straight profit 350 People x £22 Matchday Ticket  x 20 Games = £154,000.00 

Now your Running at Breakeven over the Season 

So back to the Toilets - Research shows that Clean & Decent Toilets are a High Priority for Female Fans - our % of Female Fans is relatively low - so with the right Marketing & Strategy there is opportunity to grow - another 350 doesn't seem an impossible number 

Your opportunity for Growth via increased Fans is circa another 5000 available seats  - Your Opportunity for Growth in Hospitality is 80 available Seats  - you may open up other Hospitality Areas but there is significant refurb Costs - Refurbing the Ladies Toilets isn't anywhere near expensive   

So Your Welcome🙂- Two Minutes & I just removed the forecasted loss of £150K for this Season & made refurbishing the Ladies Toilets a priority - where before no one on the Club Board or TJF Board were remotely interested - now HGT will need to take action ref the Ladies Toilets  

      

   

 

    

You’ve just plucked numbers out the air - and you complained about the robustness of forecasts. Unbelievable Jeff.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Lenziejag said:

You’ve just plucked numbers out the air - and you complained about the robustness of forecasts. Unbelievable Jeff.

Really ? 

So you have done a detailed analysis of the Actual Profit made for Hospitality ? 

Taking Off - Food - Free Bar - Waitress Staff - other staff - overhead for Sales - Marketing - Admin ? 

Heating - & Electricity Costs - spreading the cost of any Capital Spend over each game 

Taking off the Matchday Ticket that the vast Majority would have bought anyway   

You Have done all that ? 

Where is your Growth in Hospitality when it only holds 200 People - as that seems to be the Big Plan on how we get to a balanced budget ? 

But Shudder the Thought anyone might actually suggest we increase the Fan Base 

Of course the Team Doing well has an impact - But Rangers were Relegated to the Lowest Tier in Scottish Football & still sold out there Stadium - so simply saying its just about results is an excuse for doing nothing 

How any Football Club ( and there Supporters Organisation ) can remotely defend the complete lack of interest in Growing there Fan Base - which has the largest potential for increasing Revenue is Beyond me 

But I forgot we have the American Money - and we can sell off more Shares in Tranche 2 

So it doesn't really matter  

 

 

[Albert's Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So it doesn't really matter  

 

 

Good - can we all agree on that?

[Jordanhill Jag]

35 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I'll be the first person to admit that TJF has made some mistakes along this journey.

But I hope this exchange illustrates the sometimes impossible position that TJF were put in at various points. It's extremely easy for Thistle's armchair generals, some of whom (like JJ) aren't even TJF members, to be gung-ho about what they would have done in our position.

They didn't have to build the relationships just to get in the room, let alone to get some influence over either the Trust or the Club Board. They didn't have to manage the expectations of many hundreds of fans, most of whom were giving an overriding message of urging TJF to be pragmatic and to make compromises on their behalf in the interests of unifying the fanbase.

If you think you can do better, stand for the Club Board representative positions later in 2024. Stand for election to the TJF Board. Your success will be everyone's success.

Look Save all the Poor Me Rubbish - your elected - so until you stand down then your entitled to be Questioned - this is not about the past - this is about now and the complete lack of any proper strategy to increase revenues to balance the books at the AGM - which TJF are complicit in by going along with it - the fact that there is ZERO and I mean ZERO Strategy to grow the Fan Base and your betting on Growing Hospitality by circa 80 People a Game ( MAX ) to address your Revenue Issues is shocking 

I've given an outline in where I would target my efforts to Grow Revenues by targeting Growth in the number of Female Fans attending which would bring in more Revenue than Hospitality Increase - that's simply one area - I've said refurb the Female Toilets to make the Stadium more Welcoming for Females - that's not "Gung Ho" that's practical and attainable - but go run with "increasing Hospitality" and turning Cupboards into Function Rooms   

Its a pity TJF were silent ( yourself excluded ) at the AGM - we might have actually discovered what they actually think    

Anyway - if nothing else - the Female Toilets will be upgraded 

[javeajag]

8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

But Shudder the Thought anyone might actually suggest we increase the Fan Base 

This is the key point here……we need a fan acquisition strategy …..to many football clubs marketing is geared towards the fans they have nit getting new ones.

[ChiThistle]

Are there any Scottish clubs - fan-owned or not - that have significantly been able to increase their fan base?  Or that have been able to sustain smaller upward trends year over year?  And how closely did these trends coincide with performance on the pitch?

Glasgow seems like a potentially unique challenge - lots of competition for your entertainment dollar, er, pound, compared to other locales.

[eljaggo]

Could this tiresome, pointless and seemingly endless discussion be conducted via private messages please.

[laukat]

Leaving aside the increasingly circular debate on the AGM I think we would all be keen to see ideas that increase the number of fans.

So @Jordanhill Jag idea of increasing Female support by improving the toilet facilities is hopefully not lost in the midst of point scoring. 

However I often think we miss a trick by not getting fans to stay longer on match days and by getting families to more regularly using the facilities. When I had my kids I struggled to get to games because my daughters didn't really follow the game and the only thing that made them go was me promising them a trip to playpark or indoor playground. As a consequence that meant I didn't attend nor did my son and Thistle didn't get the income from us for a few years.

At the moment we have hospitality and event planning thats to my mind mainly aimed at adult supporters.

If we were able to convert some of the space we have to have playpark/indoor playground facilities as well as improving toilet facilities we could get people to stay longer and also attract kids birthday parties.

I remember years ago watching Thistle play at Meadowbank. There they had a gym hall that looked over the pitch and on matchdays they drew a curtain to stop people in the gym getting a free view of the game. If we built something on the Bing that reversed that logic we might encourage the next generation of fans.

Appreciate the short term finances don't allow much capital for investment but if we are going to generate more income we need to think a wee bit differently about what we can do to attract people to the ground and then hopefully to the game.

[javeajag]

https://fcbusiness.co.uk/news/in-focus-growing-attendance-model-gam/

[elevenone]

I am going to leave out the aside back and forth revenue chat as it is outwith the full realms of my understanding albeit an interesting read.

However @Jordanhill Jag  (and I haven’t agreed much with him in the past) has it spot on with small details like the toilets, facilities etc being of importance.  To use an example :- me and my lad attended all home games together then he started stepping out with new girlfriend of non football persuasion.  Takes her to a few games and after seeing what the toilets are like, catering etc she is like no thanks not for me.  End result being she no longer will attend and has most Saturdays taken him away from Firhill too as they are happier spending their dosh at cinema,bowling,pub etc where they can enjoy a better level of comfort.  Knock on effect is £44 per home game lost outwith other matchday spends (50-50,programme,food etc) That is obv a tiny sample but that adds up over a season.

The club needs to start thinking outside the box with smaller details.  A lot of new students arrive every year from all over the Uk to just down the road.  Do we market them, put forward the non OF perspective, offer better facilities, catering etc.  Maybe game packages?  Have deals with women’s team cause at end of the day it’s all about getting Partick Thistle out there.