Dundee Fc

[kni]

It's Bennett that owns Dens Pk.

 

I thought that Melville had bought Dens from Bennett. That was certainly Melville's intention but I stand corrected. Bennett reportedly bought the club's £7.5 million from its bankers so it will be interesting to see what he does.

Edited October 14, 2010 by kni

[Steven H]

Melville, the owner of Dens Park, will determine the future of Dundee and I doubt that he will let the club go into liquidation. He is the main private creditor and has already lodged £200k with the club's lawyers to fund the administration process. By going into administration, the club can avoid paying the other creditors and redundancy payments.

 

 

Melville will probably form a new company to take over the club. He could sell shares to the fans and others who have pledged money. However, the BBC estimated his fortune at £120 million last year. He can also borrow against the value of Dens Park to raise cash for working capital for the rest of the season. He could then sell Dens Park and do a deal with United to share Tannadice.

 

His new company will also not have the burden of paying off Chisholm, Dodds and the unwanted players. A new manager and a bunch of free agents can be brought in. There are plenty of players with experience at our level, especially in England and Europe, who are looking for even a short-term deal. Even with a 10 point deduction, Dundee would only be 4 points behind Morton and 5 points behind us with three quarters of the season to go. They get crowds of around 4,500 - enough to pay for a decent squad when free of current debts.

 

Put your dancing shoes away. The Jags have seven figure debts, half a stadium, an ageing squad on low wages, crowds of less than 3,000 and no sugar Daddy to bail us out. Laughing at Dundee now is easy but, in reality, we are actually worse off.

 

Its a 6 figure debt, an aging squad where the majority of the 'oldies' are doubling up as coaches and are working for peanuts, and half a stadium is better than no stadium. We have worked to try to service debt while Dundee have gambled and spent beyond their means. Sorry but when they then go into administration (for the 2nd time in 7 years), and when their fans rubbed everyones nose in their 'financial clout', then laughing just about sums it up for me...I like irony

[Uncle Psychosis]

I feel sorry for the backroom staff and the fans---losing your job or the club you love must be horrible. I will admit to a little schadenfreude at seeing the muppets who were lording it over the rest of us realising what has really been going on though. But I'd never want them out of business completely.

 

However, I have little sympathy for the players or the coaching team. Everyone in Scottish Fitba' knew that Dundee were spending cash they didn't have. Maybe its just me---but if another company phoned me up and said "will you take 3 times your wages to come and do the same job you do already for us instead" I would definitely be wondering what the catch was.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Uncle Psychosis

[kennymac]

Having close family ties with Dundee, I'd be gutted to see them go. They mean a lot to people I care about and therefore would not want to see them go through losing your club as I know exactly how I would feel if the boot was on the other foot. I don't want any club to go bust (well, I might have to think about Airdrie...) but I do think Dundee have unfairly taken advantage and should be made to pay.

 

Personally, I'd like to see them relegated in the same manner that Livi were. I would have thought that was the precedent, espescially for a second offence. Not sure how they can argue differently. To that end I agree with Grant - lets tar and feather them with the Third Division. We've too much competetive history - where's the excitement in Thistle v's Stirling Albion, or Elgin or Annan? Nowhere. Thats part of the reason crowds are dwindling and our game is on it's last legs.

 

Be careful what you wish for. In 5 years we might have about 20 teams left in Scotland, and if that's the case, there's a good chance we won't be at the party.

[Willjag]

Some interesting comments here. If we were to go bust as well for a second time, presumably no-one would see fault with that?

 

Also, there have been a fair few folk on this forum since the start of the season urging the Club to splash out on new players. If the Board did nothing else right over the past while, they certainly got that spot on.

[Diego]

Some interesting comments here. If we were to go bust as well for a second time, presumably no-one would see fault with that?

Whilst never happy to see a club in such a dire strait, I think Dundee deserve to be scorned for their mismanagement. If Thistle, or any other club, end up in administration then they deserve exactly the same. I don't see how supporting a club who are on an unsound footing precludes someone from pointing out the mismanagement of other teams, we're fans, not on the board of directors. It's not like anyone here is posting under the illusion that Thistle are financially steadfast. There's no hypocrisy.

[GrantB]

Some interesting comments here. If we were to go bust as well for a second time, presumably no-one would see fault with that?

 

Also, there have been a fair few folk on this forum since the start of the season urging the Club to splash out on new players. If the Board did nothing else right over the past while, they certainly got that spot on.

 

Will, I think the major difference is what the money was spent on.

 

Ours was mainly stadium related, Dundee's was trying to buy success with money they didn't have. How can a club with zero overdraft facility and no assets (i.e. their Stadium) run up a debt of £2M in such a short space of time without anyone questioning what was going on?

 

If I was a Dundee fan, I'd want Bob Brannan's head on a stick.

[Blackpool Jags]

Blackpool Jags's all time favourite Jags player in line for management role HERE.

If he's as good a manager as he was a player for us Dundee could still win this league .

What say you, BJ?

 

If BS turns out to be 100 times better a manager for them than he was a player for us he'll be an unmitigated catastrophe. I'm sooooo glad to see that he's been 'promoted' into this role. I sense that the administrator has a wee devilish streak in him.

[Charlie Endell]

laughing at Dundee now is easy but, in reality, we are actually worse off.

I don't want to see Dundee go under (although they shouldn't be able to play yet another 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card) but to say we are worse off is frankly nonsense. They're in administration and four weeks from going bust!!

 

Before you have a rant at least get your facts right - as others have pointed out Dens isn't theirs to borrow against or sell.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I don't want to see Dundee go under (although they shouldn't be able to play yet another 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card) but to say we are worse off is frankly nonsense. They're in administration and four weeks from going bust!!

 

Before you have a rant at least get your facts right - as others have pointed out Dens isn't theirs to borrow against or sell.

Ironically in 2003 Dens Pk was valued so low that the major creditor BoS (or was it HBoS back then ) judged that the best way to recoup their money was for the club to continue playing football there. Iirc some ridiculously long mortgage period (50 year ) was arranged. Had Dens say be a prime site for development the bank would have had it sold and Dundee FC would have had to lodge at Tannadice. No doubt the cost of renting could've proved too much. Looks like, on face value at least, Dundee fans have a lot to thank Bennett for buying Dens and leasing it back at either no charge or at a peppercorn rent. Just imagine if HBoS was still lurking about.

Edited October 15, 2010 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Willjag]

Some interesting comments here. If we were to go bust as well for a second time, presumably no-one would see fault with that?

 

Overtired when I posted this last night, what I meant to say was, that folk would be ok with us being punished by relegation to the 3rd division?

 

The SFL has to get some set rules in place re clubs going into administration. I'd be in favour of an instant points deduction. Somewhere between 9 and 20 points would be fair I feel. I don't think 9 is enough and I think 20 is too much. I'd go for 15.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

The SFL has to get some set rules in place re clubs going into administration. I'd be in favour of an instant points deduction. Somewhere between 9 and 20 points would be fair I feel. I don't think 9 is enough and I think 20 is too much. I'd go for 15.

I posted this last week and I feel this would be the best way to penalise clubs who go into administration. There's obviously (well maybe not to the hapless SFL) got to be a statutory points deduction but I also feel no two administrations are the same in terms of paying off creditors especially where soft loans control the CVA. We should and may only have two SFL leagues on the near future. The punishment given to Livi of dropping two divisions would therefore not be an option.

No idea if it's workable but I'd like to see a standard points deduction for entering administration applied in the season it occurs, say 10 pts. The following season a further points deduction based on the terms of the CVA. By that I mean, and I'm just taking arbitrary figures here, no further points deduction for say paying 25p/£, 5 pts deduction for 20p/£, 10 pts deduction for 15p/£ and so on. I feel like others the punishment should meet the crime and something along these lines might deter a club over loaded with soft loans paying out 1p/£.

I'm lead to believe at Dens that apart from the taxman there's at least £150K due to other creditors. In there there will be tradesmen and small supply companies etc whose very future existence could hang on the percentage amount agreed on at a CVA. Some punishment system that takes into account the level of misery and hardship those creditors will face should surely be welcome.

 

 

edited to add- the reason I think the punishment should be over two seasons is that if a 10 pt penalty is enough to relegate a club then a 15-30pt deduction is academic.

[Willjag]

I posted this last week and I feel this would be the best way to penalise clubs who go into administration. There's obviously (well maybe not to the hapless SFL) got to be a statutory points deduction but I also feel no two administrations are the same in terms of paying off creditors especially where soft loans control the CVA. We should and may only have two SFL leagues on the near future. The punishment given to Livi of dropping two divisions would therefore not be an option.

Ah yes, I remember that post now. So I agree, points penalty. I'm not sure about stretching it out over two years though?

 

The reason I thought of 15 points was if you divide the season into quarters 15 points is around half of one of those quarters total. I think Dundee will get docked 9 points in the end.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Willjag

[GrantB]

Ironically in 2003 Dens Pk was valued so low that the major creditor BoS (or was it HBoS back then ) judged that the best way to recoup their money was for the club to continue playing football there. Iirc some ridiculously long mortgage period (50 year ) was arranged. Had Dens say be a prime site for development the bank would have had it sold and Dundee FC would have had to lodge at Tannadice. No doubt the cost of renting could've proved too much. Looks like, on face value at least, Dundee fans have a lot to thank Bennett for buying Dens and leasing it back at either no charge or at a peppercorn rent. Just imagine if HBoS was still lurking about.

 

I remember reading somewhere that the land that Dens was built on was unsuitable for any other kind of development due to toxins in the ground underneath.

 

The land itself is worth little to nothing anyway as demonstrated by the abandoned supermarket just down the road.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Live updates, should anyone be interested.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Ah yes, I remember that post now. So I agree, points penalty. I'm not sure about stretching it out over two years though?

 

The reason I thought of 15 points was if you divide the season into quarters 15 points is around half of one of those quarters total. I think Dundee will get docked 9 points in the end.

A club heading for relegation adrift at the bottom of the league could be advised to go into admin say in Feb/Mar. Any points reduction would be academic and they'd start the next season afresh. No punishment at all.

[Blackpool Jags]

A club heading for relegation adrift at the bottom of the league could be advised to go into admin say in Feb/Mar. Any points reduction would be academic and they'd start the next season afresh. No punishment at all.

 

As in the case of Leeds Utd a few years ago.

 

Therefore, a two year spread, in some situations, would make some sense.

 

Edited to add that I think the Football League were wise to this and took the points off them the following season after relegation.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Blackpool Jags

[Dick Dastardly]

As in the case of Leeds Utd a few years ago.

 

Therefore, a two year spread, in some situations, would make some sense.

 

Edited to add that I think the Football League were wise to this and took the points off them the following season after relegation.

 

I think that down here, the club suffer a points deduction every season that they are in administration, so if Dundee go into administration this season, they get a penalty. If they don't come out before next season starts, another penalty. I do think that is fair on other clubs.

 

Automatically relegating Dundee now would have consequences on Dundee's ability to come out of administration, and on the finances of other clubs. If they had nothing to play for, who would come to watch ? Also, presumably the remaining clubs would be fighting to avoid the play-off spot. What happens if a second club goes into admin ? Who would be in the play off now ?

[Junior]

Has to be 20 points minimum IMO , would look for 30 points to make sure there is a proper penalty for going into admin for a second time.

[thomas]

With all the talk of no sanctions taken against them by the sfl, surely then that would allow lavvy and anyone still linked with gr£dna some leeway to sue

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Chisholm, Dodds and Kuqi gone.

[gianlucatoni]

Chisholm, Dodds and Kuqi gone.

 

the SFL should get their finger out and put an end to this sorry saga before it becomes a farce - relegate them now!

[GrantB]

the SFL should get their finger out and put an end to this sorry saga before it becomes a farce - relegate them now!

 

They can't relegate them in the middle of a season. They can, however, make sure that they are relegated at the end of the season by imposing a points deduction on the cheats.

[twinny]

I think that down here, the club suffer a points deduction every season that they are in administration, so if Dundee go into administration this season, they get a penalty. If they don't come out before next season starts, another penalty. I do think that is fair on other clubs.

 

Automatically relegating Dundee now would have consequences on Dundee's ability to come out of administration, and on the finances of other clubs. If they had nothing to play for, who would come to watch ? Also, presumably the remaining clubs would be fighting to avoid the play-off spot. What happens if a second club goes into admin ? Who would be in the play off now ?

 

Nobody is suggesting automatically relegating Dundee, the post you quoted suggested that if Dundee's relegation was to be automatic, before a points penalty even kicked in, then the points deductionshould take place next season, as was the case for Leeds and Southampton (and Stockport???).

[uberteeb]

30 points deduction this season (it has to be so much to make sure we don't end up bottom).

 

If they are still in administration at the end of the season then they get punted to the 3rd.

 

Don't want to see any club go bust but I don't have much time for Dundee or Dens Park so a few years in the wilderness for them would make me happy.

 

And for whoever asked would they like us to be relegated to the 3rd division if it happened to us, I think it would be fun for a season, winning games (hopefully) at different grounds.