honved Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Tonight Dundee played a guy whose registration was held by a non league club down south. Because of the transfer embargo they needed that released, so they got Lochee Utd to sign him and then played him as a trialist (all of which is apparently legit). edited to add...guess who scored their goal? Yup, right first time. Edited March 22, 2011 by honved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Tonight Dundee played a guy whose registration was held by a non league club down south. Because of the transfer embargo they needed that released, so they got Lochee Utd to sign him and then played him as a trialist (all of which is apparently legit). ******* joke, they should have been relegated, end of story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I can't get terribly excited about whether we finish third or fourth or whatever. I'd really like to see us finishing above Dundee though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearchar Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 What is interesting about the Dundee fiasco is that they have shown how it is possible to amass debts in order to gain promotion, shrug off those debts with minimal payment and then go on to benefit from the assets (in this case, players) paid for with other people's money - all this at minimal cost to the club. If the SFA doesn't sort this out, before long many clubs will see this as the route to winning promotion. Provided that most of the debt is at least notionally held by supporters of the club who don't want to see it go to the wall, then it's easy to wield enough votes to ensure that the debt is more or less written off. There is every appearance that Dundee is not the only club in the First Division which might benefit from this strategy. What puzzles me, apart from the ability of all of the clubs at our level to be extended credit by suppliers, is why any of the clubs think it's worthwhile: is there really a crock of gold awaiting once a club reaches the SPL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 What is interesting about the Dundee fiasco is that they have shown how it is possible to amass debts in order to gain promotion, shrug off those debts with minimal payment and then go on to benefit from the assets (in this case, players) paid for with other people's money - all this at minimal cost to the club. If the SFA doesn't sort this out, before long many clubs will see this as the route to winning promotion. Provided that most of the debt is at least notionally held by supporters of the club who don't want to see it go to the wall, then it's easy to wield enough votes to ensure that the debt is more or less written off. There is every appearance that Dundee is not the only club in the First Division which might benefit from this strategy. What puzzles me, apart from the ability of all of the clubs at our level to be extended credit by suppliers, is why any of the clubs think it's worthwhile: is there really a crock of gold awaiting once a club reaches the SPL? There is the small matter of hundreds of thousands of pounds owed and not paid to the taxman. Maybe that's attractive. It sure as hell looks like it from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearchar Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) There is the small matter of hundreds of thousands of pounds owed and not paid to the taxman. Maybe that's attractive. It sure as hell looks like it from here. That was attractive, but that's now been and gone, like all the other debt, since HMRC no longer has preferred creditor status. In practice, taxes owed but never paid are just another debt to be shrugged off by the unscrupulous. Unless HMRC becomes concerned about sly tax evasion schemes like this, it's very unlikely that Dundee FC's former directors will suffer any consequences - and that goes for the Administrator too. (I would question whether any of them could be regarded as a "fit and proper person" to become a director of any company.) Edited March 23, 2011 by Fearchar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Thistle Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Something still stinks about the whole Dundee Fiasco - Take Harkins for example he is owed £96k approx if he gets 6p in the £ he gets £6k approx How many of people would be happy working for an employer that owes them that sort of money with you have no chance of getting it back , they have broken the contract so why stay , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Of The Month Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Something still stinks about the whole Dundee Fiasco - Take Harkins for example he is owed £96k approx if he gets 6p in the £ he gets £6k approx How many of people would be happy working for an employer that owes them that sort of money with you have no chance of getting it back , they have broken the contract so why stay , Players still at the club won't be getting 6% of their wages. The list that was posted on here is how much Harkins is owed over the course of his contract, he might've went without wages or with less wages for a bit there but they'll be getting paid in full now. It's also worth noting that the loophole Dundee are exploiting ends on 31st March as they cannot play trialists after that date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 I don't really understand why Dundee are still trying stunts like this. It is almost mathematically impossible for Dundee to get promoted now (Raith and Dunfermline would need to loose every game and draw the fife derby). Likewise, they are pretty much clear of relegation, so why bring attention to themselves for a player that can play a maximum of 2 games ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Something still stinks about the whole Dundee Fiasco - Take Harkins for example he is owed £96k approx if he gets 6p in the £ he gets £6k approx How many of people would be happy working for an employer that owes them that sort of money with you have no chance of getting it back , they have broken the contract so why stay , It's the soft loans thingy that really stinks. With Melville, Brannan and also iirc, Bennett, cash inputs suddenly became loans and in the case of Bennett he became a grieved landowner overnight. Cross the 75% creditor limit with soft loans and you're home, no bother. btw folk talk of Dunfermline's huge debts but they could do a "Dundee" just as easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 It's the soft loans thingy that really stinks. With Melville, Brannan and also iirc, Bennett, cash inputs suddenly became loans and in the case of Bennett he became a grieved landowner overnight. Cross the 75% creditor limit with soft loans and you're home, no bother. btw folk talk of Dunfermline's huge debts but they could do a "Dundee" just as easily. I could be wrong here, and probably am, but is the difference between Dundee and Dunfermline's ability to do this sort of thing based on the fact they do not own their stadiums while we, at least in part, do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) I could be wrong here, and probably am, but is the difference between Dundee and Dunfermline's ability to do this sort of thing based on the fact they do not own their stadiums while we, at least in part, do? More to do with the folk that put money into the club not requiring their money back. Then call that a money a loan and as long as it's over 75% of the debt the other creditors can get to ****. Edited March 23, 2011 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Dundee's use of trialists is a topic on tonights Sportsound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colognejag Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Time to look at the German model. Each year all teams must ensure to the German FA (DCB) they are financially viable and fit to end the season. This makes all clubs live within their means and clubs cannot muck around. We are not saints on this issue by any means, but there have been too many clubs since that have been in more seroius trouble. Livi getting hit was fair, as was Gretna. Dundee's "punishment" was far too lenient. Getting that financially wrong should mean demotion to the lowest league, minimum. There is not enough of a disincentive at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL.H Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 What Dundee are doing may be within the rules, but it seems as though they are just sticking two fingers up to everyone else in the league. Without doubt they should have been relegated. I don`t know how many "trialists" they have used, but surely this needs to be tightened up, to stop clubs abusing the system, as they have. There should be a limit to the number a club can use in a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 What Dundee are doing may be within the rules, but it seems as though they are just sticking two fingers up to everyone else in the league. Without doubt they should have been relegated. I don`t know how many "trialists" they have used, but surely this needs to be tightened up, to stop clubs abusing the system, as they have. There should be a limit to the number a club can use in a season. The only people Dundee are sticking two fingers up to by using trialists are the guys they released thus breaking their contracts. Once again it's the hapless SFL, a bunch of halfwits, completely at fault. Firstly they didn't have regulations in place to deal with Dundee's administration. That was despite the prior warnings from situations at Livingston & Gretna. Now they don't even have regulations in place to deal with trialists. Feel miffed by all means about Dundee playing the system but you should really target your anger at this totally inept organisation that is supposed to run our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Of The Month Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Dundee reject criticism for playing trialists "One of the major things we were punished for was bringing the integrity of the league into question and I would suggest that, if we played what we would call a first 11 in some games and weren't able to do that in others, that would affect things like promotion slots, relegation and different positions in the league," he said. "We've played Falkirk and Dunfermline in the last couple games and we've managed to put out a good team and get a performance. "In a couple of weeks time, we will not be able to play trialists and will play Raith Rovers and so if you kick in with injuries and suspensions, we may well be playing a team that looks considerably weaker on paper. "How would Dunfermline feel about that? They are probably not very excited. "The thing now for us is that we are trying to avoid relegation, but we've also got a duty to the others teams to put out as best a team we can possibly do. "If that means playing trialists, it means playing trialists, we make no apology for that." Ah so it's to protect the integrity of the league and to ensure it was competitive for all the other teams that Dundee used so many trialists. I can't wait for next season, by all accounts they were using the Sky money for the cup tie and Griffiths sale to keep them going until the end of the season and only used a fraction of it to pay off their debts. They'll need to have a squad next season so that'll mean getting rid of some of their higher earners to bring in 2 or 3 players to make up the numbers. Or they'll do things the Dundee way and we'll all be calling for them to be chucked out the league a year or 2 down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beep0608 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) What Dundee are doing may be within the rules, but it seems as though they are just sticking two fingers up to everyone else in the league. Without doubt they should have been relegated. I don`t know how many "trialists" they have used, but surely this needs to be tightened up, to stop clubs abusing the system, as they have. There should be a limit to the number a club can use in a season. Agreed. They've got away with it again. Like Motherwell in some ways, but let's not go there, aside from wonder where we'd be if we'd spent so long in the Premier and had endless favours..... Anyway, it's less a crock of gold and more a crock of something else I think. Dundee were crafty enough to wait till the season was under way before going into admin therefore knowing the SFL would not be able to relegate them without causing chaos and then also be accused of endangering their survival if they didn't let them play again till the next season started. There's no obvious way of doing that so they gave them a hefty points penalty, expecting that would send them down. Except.....Dundee keep a strong squad and go on a record breaking run and so avoid relegation. Not fair at all but so fecking what actually. I stopped expecting fair play in our game some time ago. Not that it is our game any more. Edited March 23, 2011 by beep0608 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jags365 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 There's nothing stoping anyone else from using trialists in this manner and as such I don't really have a problem with that. The administration stuff is a totally different kettle of fish thing IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Time to look at the German model. Each year all teams must ensure to the German FA (DCB) they are financially viable and fit to end the season. This makes all clubs live within their means and clubs cannot muck around. We are not saints on this issue by any means, but there have been too many clubs since that have been in more seroius trouble. Livi getting hit was fair, as was Gretna. Dundee's "punishment" was far too lenient. Getting that financially wrong should mean demotion to the lowest league, minimum. There is not enough of a disincentive at the moment. Totally agree with all points in this post. Would surely make a lot of sense to try and anticipate financial difficulties and deal with the issues in advance rather than allowing clubs to pretend they are solvent right up until the point they are found out. Why can't the league ask serious questions (an advance audit almost) about financial viability at the start of the season rather than just waiting to see who goes into administration. Clubs should have to present a business plan demonstrating solvency at the start of each season which demonstrates how they propose to compete on a viable basis, pay wages etc. It should be a condition of entry to the league each season that a club can show it is a going concern and that it will be able to remain so for the course of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Latest "oh poor innocent us who did and continue to do no wrong" keech from Harry McLean and the cheating dees on bbc: Dundee hope to secure Barry Smith and his high-flying players on new contracts - as soon as the Division One club come out of administration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Latest "oh poor innocent us who did and continue to do no wrong" keech from Harry McLean and the cheating dees on bbc: Dundee hope to secure Barry Smith and his high-flying players on new contracts - as soon as the Division One club come out of administration They make me sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 "The fact he (Barry Smith) has been able to put out a competitive team is down to his skill, but they are all in it together," said MacLean. Barry Smith's "skill" has been in not selecting himself to play. Had he done so - even as an 89th minute sub - at any time, the cheating barsturts would certainly not be boasting a 22-match unbeaten run. In fact, rather than a 25 point penalty, the SFL panel should have stipulated that Smith be required to play a minimum of 45 minutes in each league match. I suspect that had they done this, the cheats would've appealed and asked that a 25 point penalty be imposed instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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