Our Dire Financial Position

[Tom Stronach]

Another pre-season has passed with very little transfer activity from Thistle and the few signings we have made have been largely uninspiring and none are proven at our level. Yet again, teams that we are undoubtably bigger than such as Morton, Ross County, Livingston and Hamilton are in a much more prosperous position going into the season as they have significantly larger and arguably better squads than us. Why is this?

 

Do they simply have wealthier owners than us, or are the owners of the aforementioned clubs just more willing to part with their cash?

 

Back in the dreaded Dick Campbell era, every season he would pray for one of the Old Firm in the cup as the gate money would allow for significant investment in the playing squad. Needless to say, we have had 3 cup ties against Rangers in recent seasons, two of which we recieved television money for and the other, we recieved half off the gate for a well attended tie at Ibrox, not to mention the fees we recieved for Gary Harkins and Mark Twaddle. These events seem to have made no difference whatsoever to our financial clout as a club, indeed we seem to be much poorer financially than we were three or four seasons ago. I appreciate our crowds have been dreadful recently, but they weren't that much better three or four seasons ago and most SFL clubs with the exception of Dundee, have seen a dramatic reduction in the amount of people attending their games.

 

Where did all the money from the cup games and transfers go? Was/is our debt really that bad?

 

You can't expect people to fork out for season tickets year after year if those in charge are not willing to show any ambition. We are going nowhere as a club and it's becoming increasingly demoralising hearing things like "We arn't in a position to sign established first division players" from the manager and being constantly told we arn't in a position to compete with small teams like Hamilton and Ross County.

 

It's easy to blame falling attendances for the lack of investment, but I believe we have wealthy individuals on our board and if we don't increase our budget soon we are going to be left behind and the floating fans will be lost forever.

 

I apologise for the negative thread but this has been bugging me for some time.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Tom Stronach

[MWM]

Yes, I'd say these teams have people more willing to part with their cash.

 

Any money coming into the club seems to go into the black hole that is the club debt, and like you say we haven't had a nice wee transfer fee or a money spinning cup tie for a while now, and it will probably begin to show. If we were to need to bring in some players come January there is no way in hell I believe we will be able to bring good enough ones in. Never mind how we'd be able to afford or how rooked we'd be if we sacked the management.

 

We are now on a par with teams like Ayr and Queen of the South. Not Motherwell, St. Mirren and so on.

[cjptfc]

 

We are now on a par with teams like Ayr and Queen of the South. Not Motherwell, St. Mirren and so on.

 

That's a depressing thought.

[Yellow & Redneck]

I think a number of really good points are raised here.

 

I do have to say that Partick Thistle seem to be one of Scotland's least ambitious clubs, our soul target every year seems to just be surviving. Both McCall and McNamara have been brutally honest with the fans, they are not disguising that fact that we have little in the way of a budget. The board however seem to have no transparency, I don't think that any Jags fans have even the slightest idea of how bad the state of the clubs finances look, and the men upstairs seem to delay/dismiss every initiative to raise money for the club. (A Membership Scheme was mentioned but nothing has surfaced since.)

 

One of Thistle's worst attribute is that we are all still haunted by the "Save The Jags" campaign of the mid-90's, and nobody wants to see us in that situation again. We have massive debts, and I can see why most of our income is spent on reducing them/paying off the interest. I think that most of the board members will take a very conservative approach in ensuring that we never get into that situation again. However I hate something that happened almost two decades ago still being used as an excuse today.

 

(I do have to ask whatever happened to the Players Fund. It was merged with the Centenary Fund a couple of seasons back, but I have to say I've seen very little transfer activity as a result of it, and lets be honest, when the Players Fund was set up, it's soul purpose was to bring fresh players to Firhill.)

 

I am sure Dick Campbell's spending spree is still a major factor even today, he spent ridiculous sums of money on wages etc. for players that were some of the worst Firhill has ever seen.

 

In my opinion, the worst thing about Thistle (and Scottish football in general, which I have covered at length on other forums and on my blog is our ridiculous ticket prices. £17 to watch First Division football is a joke! (I paid £19 to watch a La Liga match a few years back, RCD Mallorca vs Real Betis). I think the astronomical prices put people off, and I've always wondered why not reduce the price by a few pounds, and then the slight increase in attendance would either cover or actually increase gate revenue. Bums on seats surely make the most money over the course of a season, and as a club I think we turn people away with frankly scandalous prices.

 

I have to say, I'm not to disappointed with the transfer activity this season given our restraints. Stewart will hopefully really come good over the season and Sinclair looks like he's played at this level all his life. There is no depth in our team, which is a cliché with any club that just doesn't have the funds.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Yellow & Redneck

[Fawlty Towers]

Another pre-season has passed with very little transfer activity from Thistle and the few signings we have made have been largely uninspiring and none are proven at our level. Yet again, teams that we are undoubtably bigger than such as Morton, Ross County, Livingston and Hamilton are in a much more prosperous position going into the season as they have significantly larger and arguably better squads than us. Why is this?

 

Do they simply have wealthier owners than us, or are the owners of the aforementioned clubs just more willing to part with their cash?

 

Back in the dreaded Dick Campbell era, every season he would pray for one of the Old Firm in the cup as the gate money would allow for significant investment in the playing squad. Needless to say, we have had 3 cup ties against Rangers in recent seasons, two of which we recieved television money for and the other, we recieved half off the gate for a well attended tie at Ibrox, not to mention the fees we recieved for Gary Harkins and Mark Twaddle. These events seem to have made no difference whatsoever to our financial clout as a club, indeed we seem to be much poorer financially than we were three or four seasons ago. I appreciate our crowds have been dreadful recently, but they weren't that much better three or four seasons ago and most SFL clubs with the exception of Dundee, have seen a dramatic reduction in the amount of people attending their games.

 

Where did all the money from the cup games and transfers go? Was/is our debt really that bad?

 

You can't expect people to fork out for season tickets year after year if those in charge are not willing to show any ambition. We are going nowhere as a club and it's becoming increasingly demoralising hearing things like "We arn't in a position to sign established first division players" from the manager and being constantly told we arn't in a position to compete with small teams like Hamilton and Ross County.

 

It's easy to blame falling attendances for the lack of investment, but I believe we have wealthy individuals on our board and if we don't increase our budget soon we are going to be left behind and the floating fans will be lost forever.

 

I apologise for the negative thread but this has been bugging me for some time.

 

This is the second time I have seen this posted on the forum and I have to say again that Jackie did not say this and we need to be careful about just repeating things that someone else says and assuming they were right as you correctly point out that people can become demoralised.

 

I should also say that money in itself does not equate to success - Morton have not finished above us in the league since getting back to the first division or got further in the cups than we have.

 

My wish is to see Partick Thistle on a sound, sustainable financial footing where everyone plays their part and we are not dependant on any "sugar daddy" type of figure - that will take time but I believe that it is achievable.

[cjptfc]

As a club, we find ourselves in a horrible position of fear. We have been in this state for around 8 years though, so it's not new (maybe since summer of 2003 after we stayed in the SPL). It's just that slightly better attendances 5-8 years ago maybe masked it a wee bit.

 

We fear what happened in 1997 happening all over again, and this time not surviving. Bear with me if I get this wrong but I was only 14 at the time so maybe didn't understand the facts fully at the time. However, when the Save The Jags campaign was announced as a success, the club had been saved, etc etc, everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief, directors, supporters alike. (maybe not the management as they were the two biggest idiots ever to run this great club in my opinion). Anyway, it was stated at the time that for no reason would this ever be allowed to happen again, supporters in general tended to agree. The concensus was that an underachieving club was better than no club. That attitude has stuck and probably gone too far the other way. We are happy to accept that we can't spend money because we can't put the future of the club in jeopardy again.

 

On the other hand, we want to challenge to win this First Division which we have been in for 6 seasons now. Where do we go from here? The directors won't push the boat out. They are scared of it happening all over again. And make no mistake, we would not survive a 2nd time.

[Tom Stronach]

We are now on a par with teams like Ayr and Queen of the South. Not Motherwell, St. Mirren and so on.

 

That's exactly what angers and saddens me the most. We are so far behind clubs that are of a similar size and stature and I blame our board's lack of ambition and competence for that. If we keep going the way we are, people will be mentioning us in the same breath as the Forfar's and Arbroath's of this world. St Mirren are example of what we should be aiming for. They are years ahead of us now and it's sickening.

 

Both McCall and McNamara have been brutally honest with the fans, they are not disguising that fact that we have little in the way of a budget. The board however seem to have no transparency

 

That's a very good and important point. A lot of the cynics will see this as making excuses for their shortcomings as managers, but I remember Mccall saying not so long ago that some of our first team regulars are on the equivilant of the minimum wage which is shocking and embarassing for such an established full time club like ours.

[cjptfc]

That's a very good and important point. A lot of the cynics will see this as making excuses for their shortcomings as managers, but I remember Mccall saying not so long ago that some of our first team regulars are on the equivilant of the minimum wage which is shocking and embarassing for such an established full time club like ours.

 

A good point. I'm sure I've said on here before that, even though we are a full-time club, a large percentage of employed Jags fans probably earn a good deal more than most of the players they are watching.

[Guest fredthecheesecloth]

Martin, lets face it, we will not be sustainable in anything like the short term, not even a chance!

[lady-isobel-barnett]

but I remember Mccall saying not so long ago that some of our first team regulars are on the equivilant of the minimum wage which is shocking and embarassing for such an established full time club like ours.

In the interest of balance at least we shouldn't be embarrassed at our youth policy, which by bringing down the average age helps somewhat. By that I mean our younger players won't be so wage dependent than those in their late twenties and older.

If we've to feel embarrassed by being a club of our historic status reduced to paying peanuts at least we don't need to feel ashamed. Shame should be more the domain of fans of Livingston, Dundee, Motherwell and to a lesser extent Dunfermline. At least we've not plunged to that level.

[hebridean jag]

It really has to be asked just what it is our BOD actualy bring to the table. To be brutally frank it has to be either money or expertise.......there`s nothing else.

 

Despite this the only tactic they appear to have to maintain the club in it`s present perilous condition is one of continual cost cutting. Fine in it`s way but potentially disasterous in a field where every paying customer has to be attracted through the door. To simply assume that the mugs will turn up simply won`t work when everyone with a Sky dish and a fridge can have a decent Saturday without leaving the house.

 

At the danger of labouring the point I won`t be there on Saturday (and because of that neither will three others). It will be the first opening game I`ve missed in many years but I just can`t justify making the effort if the club won`t do so in return. That`s the problem they have. They either come up with cash or they oversee a continual decline in status and attendances.

 

Before we get the usual "just who would you have on the board instead" I would say read my opening paragraph. If these guys won`t spend cash and their expertise obviously excludes club football then just what difference does it make who wears the nice blazers and ties.

[Woodstock Jag]

In the interests of accuracy, only one of the three games against Rangers had any television consequentials. That was the League Cup game which was broadcast on the BBC. Neither the Ibrox Scottish Cup tie nor the replay at Firhill were live televised games, but both were included in the standard Scottish Cup evening highlights package.

[Steven H]

It really has to be asked just what it is our BOD actualy bring to the table. To be brutally frank it has to be either money or expertise.......there`s nothing else.

 

Despite this the only tactic they appear to have to maintain the club in it`s present perilous condition is one of continual cost cutting. Fine in it`s way but potentially disasterous in a field where every paying customer has to be attracted through the door. To simply assume that the mugs will turn up simply won`t work when everyone with a Sky dish and a fridge can have a decent Saturday without leaving the house.

 

At the danger of labouring the point I won`t be there on Saturday (and because of that neither will three others). It will be the first opening game I`ve missed in many years but I just can`t justify making the effort if the club won`t do so in return. That`s the problem they have. They either come up with cash or they oversee a continual decline in status and attendances.

 

Before we get the usual "just who would you have on the board instead" I would say read my opening paragraph. If these guys won`t spend cash and their expertise obviously excludes club football then just what difference does it make who wears the nice blazers and ties.

 

I'm in the camp of the cynics in relation to our current board, too many with a conflict of interest by having their fingers in the two pies which are PTFC and whatever the property/development company is called. When you consider it stands to reason certain BoD members would make more money if PTFC did not exist then why should they pump money in...especially when people make comments like 'if they dont put in the money why should I?'?

 

Some valid points made on this thread but the circular arguement continues while you HJ, and others of similar mind, keep banging the same self-defeating drum.

 

We've said for years how it would be great if a Jags fan won the lottery, now we have the biggest winner of all (who has been 'cleared' as a true, but lapsed, Jags fan in another thread). Will he do the necessary and buy the current BoD and property company out? I doubt it! So let's all adopt HJ's philosophy and wallow in self pity, or take Fawlty Towers view and live with hope (and blind trust in the current BoD that their conflict of interest will not be to the detriment of the Club in the long term.

 

It's a tough life being a Jags fan, every one of us know it and chose to follow that path...this 'mug' will not stray from the path. See you all on Saturday, well maybe not all

[Collins Out!]

If we want things to improve long term, regardless of what is served up on the pitch or boardroom competence, then more Jags fans are going to have to go to the match.

1200 for a home game is pathetic given the number of fans we have.

[joejag]

In the interests of accuracy, only one of the three games against Rangers had any television consequentials. That was the League Cup game which was broadcast on the BBC. Neither the Ibrox Scottish Cup tie nor the replay at Firhill were live televised games, but both were included in the standard Scottish Cup evening highlights package.

The cup replay at Firhill was LIVE on SKY

[cjptfc]

The cup replay at Firhill was LIVE on SKY

 

You sure? I didn't think it was on the telly

[northernsoul]

The current folk in charge of the Club inherited a football Club in a financial mess. A football Club running at a loss year on year, pushing the fans away and expecting 3000 of us to turn up for every home game - delusional.

 

The Club has to stop running at a loss and start to break even. I'm prepared to give Beattie/Allan time to do that. Maybe then the Club can start to rebuild.

Edited August 3, 2011 by northernsoul

[1 John Lambie]

The cup replay at Firhill was LIVE on SKY

 

Incorrect.

[Fawlty Towers]

The Inverness replay was on Sky but the Rangers replay was not.

[Woodstock Jag]

The Inverness replay was on Sky but the Rangers replay was not.

 

Correct.

[Third Lanark]

Another pre-season has passed with very little transfer activity from Thistle and the few signings we have made have been largely uninspiring and none are proven at our level. Yet again, teams that we are undoubtably bigger than such as Morton, Ross County, Livingston and Hamilton are in a much more prosperous position going into the season as they have significantly larger and arguably better squads than us. Why is this?

 

Do they simply have wealthier owners than us, or are the owners of the aforementioned clubs just more willing to part with their cash?

 

Back in the dreaded Dick Campbell era, every season he would pray for one of the Old Firm in the cup as the gate money would allow for significant investment in the playing squad. Needless to say, we have had 3 cup ties against Rangers in recent seasons, two of which we recieved television money for and the other, we recieved half off the gate for a well attended tie at Ibrox, not to mention the fees we recieved for Gary Harkins and Mark Twaddle. These events seem to have made no difference whatsoever to our financial clout as a club, indeed we seem to be much poorer financially than we were three or four seasons ago. I appreciate our crowds have been dreadful recently, but they weren't that much better three or four seasons ago and most SFL clubs with the exception of Dundee, have seen a dramatic reduction in the amount of people attending their games.

 

Where did all the money from the cup games and transfers go? Was/is our debt really that bad?

 

You can't expect people to fork out for season tickets year after year if those in charge are not willing to show any ambition. We are going nowhere as a club and it's becoming increasingly demoralising hearing things like "We arn't in a position to sign established first division players" from the manager and being constantly told we arn't in a position to compete with small teams like Hamilton and Ross County.

 

It's easy to blame falling attendances for the lack of investment, but I believe we have wealthy individuals on our board and if we don't increase our budget soon we are going to be left behind and the floating fans will be lost forever.

 

I apologise for the negative thread but this has been bugging me for some time.

Never thought I would say this to you but excellent post

[Lionel J. Botch]

 

I should also say that money in itself does not equate to success - Morton have not finished above us in the league since getting back to the first division or got further in the cups than we have.

 

My wish is to see Partick Thistle on a sound, sustainable financial footing where everyone plays their part and we are not dependant on any "sugar daddy" type of figure - that will take time but I believe that it is achievable.

 

1) Are Morton still in the league cup?

 

2) Are you an accountant, you think like one?

 

How can we possibly get on a sustainable financial footing when we are, at best, a mid table first division team with no ambition to invest in the team to challenge for promotion? Year on year we loose money despite having one of the smallest playing budgets in the division. We have sold half the ground so doing a St Mirren is out of the question.

The match day experience is crap, it costs too much, the catering is fekin awful, if yer seat is no boggin or covered in bird sh1te it is taped off as the seat is broken or the back is hanging off. All this for £17.

 

There are certain things that cannot be sorted overnight, but surely looking after your current customer base to keep them coming back should be a must.

 

Looking forward to Saturday though

[Fawlty Towers]

1) Are Morton still in the league cup?

 

2) Are you an accountant, you think like one?

 

How can we possibly get on a sustainable financial footing when we are, at best, a mid table first division team with no ambition to invest in the team to challenge for promotion? Year on year we loose money despite having one of the smallest playing budgets in the division. We have sold half the ground so doing a St Mirren is out of the question.

The match day experience is crap, it costs too much, the catering is fekin awful, if yer seat is no boggin or covered in bird sh1te it is taped off as the seat is broken or the back is hanging off. All this for £17.

 

There are certain things that cannot be sorted overnight, but surely looking after your current customer base to keep them coming back should be a must.

 

Looking forward to Saturday though

 

Sorry should have made it clear that I was talking about the past few seasons with reference to our performance in league and cups compared to Morton not this season.

 

I am not an accountant but ever since the first day I started earning money I have sat down at the start of a month and written down my income and then my "must do" expenditure (mortgage,council tax, etc) then see what that leaves for the "would be nice" expenditure and if I can't afford something on the nice list then I either start putting some money aside to buy it later or forget about buying it. Although a football club is a bigger organisation and its monthly income is not fixed like mine the basic principle is the same and if the club operates like that then it will be sustainable (at what level is a different question).

 

If your seat is dirty and/or broken then contact the club because there are facility management people paid to deal with that and you are quite correct that as a paying customer the club should be working hard to keep your business.

[1 John Lambie]

If your seat is dirty and/or broken then contact the club because there are facility management people paid to deal with that and you are quite correct that as a paying customer the club should be working hard to keep your business.

 

Yip, if you contact the club it should be able to be fixed. I know many seats have already been fixed & cleaned during the close season, but whether these were after the club was contacted or because they were noticed to be broken/dirty I'm not sure. It would be a difficult job to check that over 6,000 seats are in tip top condition.

[uberteeb]

Are any of our board members properly wealthy? They clearly aren't Abramovaich wealthy but are they 'rich' in a 2011 sense or do they maybe have a million or so tied up in a nice house, car and business?

 

If none of them have the money, or they can't club together the money, to pay an established first division striker say £40k-£50k per annum (I'm assuming around the going rate) then what are they doing there? Surely that is not too much to ask? Not borrowed money, not money we need to pay back, just pay a decent striker a first division wage for a couple of seasons to give us a right shot at getting out this league.