Why We're Crap In Cup Games...

[Firhillista]

Attitude. If we beat Culter next week it'll because our players can play football better than theirs, not because we want to win the game more. To win competitions you need to have a team that hates losing. All the great managers instilled this in their sides - Stein, Busby, Shankly, Ferguson. Losing wasn't to be contemplated - not until the referee blew that final whistle, anyway. In Thistle terms, Auld and Lambie had the same approach. And you need players in the team who feel the same way. Billy Bremner, Dave Mackay, Graeme Souness always played like they'd rather lose an arm than lose a game. It didn't mean they won every match, but it did mean they were amongst the most successful players of their generation.

 

Again, as far as Thistle are concerned, we can all name players who had the same attitude - think about guys like Danny Lennon or Charnley most recently, or Jackie Campbell, Ronnie Glavin, Alex Rae from the League Cup side. We don't have that currently. That's why we're out of two cup competitions and can't beat a poor Junior team and why we're mid-table and sliding.

 

When we're allowed to play our game by the opposition, we can win matches. When we're not (and it's no coincidence that Culter were advised by Derek Adams - much as I hate to say it, a guy who obviously would lose blood to ensure winning), we're stuffed. We don't have players with the right attitude.Too many of our young players seem to be bedazzled by just being professional footballers. The seriousness that's required, the need to feel that this is a profession that requires their total commitment, doesn't seem to be there. Not yet, anyway. They're young and they can learn. Does our manager have it in him to teach them, though? Make no mistake, this is a watershed moment for McNamara. How the team responds to yesterday's result will go a long way to defining his professional future. Make a success of being the Jags manager and he can move on to more lucrative gigs. Fail here and go the way of McLeod and Collins and Whyte and Brittain and other 'young' hopefuls from the past.

 

Over to you, Jackie. I really hope - for everyone's sake - you make it.

[Fearchar]

"We don't have players with the right attitude." That's it in a nutshell.

 

This team has been crying out for leadership since the season started. It's clear that it's not going to come from Archie. Surprisingly, the one player who looked as if he had the grit to take the opposition on in the match against Culter was Erskine, and the opposition support realised that and did their best to get on his back.

[Lindau]

Attitude. If we beat Culter next week it'll because our players can play football better than theirs, not because we want to win the game more. To win competitions you need to have a team that hates losing. All the great managers instilled this in their sides - Stein, Busby, Shankly, Ferguson. Losing wasn't to be contemplated - not until the referee blew that final whistle, anyway. In Thistle terms, Auld and Lambie had the same approach. And you need players in the team who feel the same way. Billy Bremner, Dave Mackay, Graeme Souness always played like they'd rather lose an arm than lose a game. It didn't mean they won every match, but it did mean they were amongst the most successful players of their generation.

 

Again, as far as Thistle are concerned, we can all name players who had the same attitude - think about guys like Danny Lennon or Charnley most recently, or Jackie Campbell, Ronnie Glavin, Alex Rae from the League Cup side. We don't have that currently. That's why we're out of two cup competitions and can't beat a poor Junior team and why we're mid-table and sliding.

 

When we're allowed to play our game by the opposition, we can win matches. When we're not (and it's no coincidence that Culter were advised by Derek Adams - much as I hate to say it, a guy who obviously would lose blood to ensure winning), we're stuffed. We don't have players with the right attitude.Too many of our young players seem to be bedazzled by just being professional footballers. The seriousness that's required, the need to feel that this is a profession that requires their total commitment, doesn't seem to be there. Not yet, anyway. They're young and they can learn. Does our manager have it in him to teach them, though? Make no mistake, this is a watershed moment for McNamara. How the team responds to yesterday's result will go a long way to defining his professional future. Make a success of being the Jags manager and he can move on to more lucrative gigs. Fail here and go the way of McLeod and Collins and Whyte and Brittain and other 'young' hopefuls from the past.

 

Over to you, Jackie. I really hope - for everyone's sake - you make it.

 

 

Excellent post....couldnt agree more!

[gianlucatoni]

Nice positive title - could have been worse to be honest at least we came away with a draw.

 

I'm quite glad junior teams are allowed to have a crack at teams like ours in the Scottish Cup - but for Thistle fans to have that OF "we are going to horse them" mentality is wrong - junior teams are by and large solid wee outfits - remember irvine meadow nearly pumping hibees last year or the year before at easter road? Ties like that have banana skin written all over them.

 

In addition to this many junior players are shoplifted by teams like ours to bolster squads so maybe there's a wee hint that the gap in quality is not so great after all ... that wee diddy team won their junior super league last year. I often go to see junior games like Pollok, Arthurlie, Irvine Meadow and Auchinleack and theres not much difference - aside from the fact that the pitches are usually in better condition than Firhill!

Edited November 20, 2011 by gianlucatoni

[The Cup]

Nice positive title - could have been worse to be honest at least we came away with a draw.

 

I'm quite glad junior teams are allowed to have a crack at teams like ours in the Scottish Cup - but for Thistle fans to have that OF "we are going to horse them mentality" is wrong - junior teams are by and large solid wee outfits - remember irvine meadow nearly pumping hibees last year or the year before at easter road?

 

In addition to this many junior players are shoplifted by teams like ours to bolster squads so maybe there's a wee hint that the gap in quality is not so great after all ... that wee diddy team won their junior super league last year. I often go to see junior games like Pollok, Arthurlie, Irvine Meadow and Auchinleack and theres not much difference - aside from the fact that the pitches are usually in better condition than Firhill!

 

The other league teams comfortably beat the juniors.

I think Thistle could've scored a few but as usual their attitude stinks.

[JAGZ1876]

I often go to see junior games like Pollok, Arthurlie, Irvine Meadow and Auchinleack and theres not much difference - aside from the fact that the pitches are usually in better condition than Firhill!

 

Agreed, when i get the chance i will take in a Beith game, and the standard is certainly on a par with that of 2nd and 3rd division.

 

The top junior sides can pay more money to some players than some teams in the bottom two SFL divisions, while crowds can be larger as well.

[jaggybunnet]

Agreed, when i get the chance i will take in a Beith game, and the standard is certainly on a par with that of 2nd and 3rd division.

 

The top junior sides can pay more money to some players than some teams in the bottom two SFL divisions, while crowds can be larger as well.

 

 

Buckie Thistle spent 40 grand on a player this season, when did thisle last do that?

[PaleGreySky]

Nice positive title - could have been worse to be honest at least we came away with a draw.

 

I'm quite glad junior teams are allowed to have a crack at teams like ours in the Scottish Cup - but for Thistle fans to have that OF "we are going to horse them" mentality is wrong - junior teams are by and large solid wee outfits - remember irvine meadow nearly pumping hibees last year or the year before at easter road? Ties like that have banana skin written all over them.

 

In addition to this many junior players are shoplifted by teams like ours to bolster squads so maybe there's a wee hint that the gap in quality is not so great after all ... that wee diddy team won their junior super league last year. I often go to see junior games like Pollok, Arthurlie, Irvine Meadow and Auchinleack and theres not much difference - aside from the fact that the pitches are usually in better condition than Firhill!

 

I agree with most of this. The thing is, I was saying we should be pumping Culter by about 5/6, but that was an educated opinion. The norht juniors is really poor relative the to the west and east, which I watch regularly. I have lived in glasgow and edinburgh and been to see games in both regions, where I would say that the top teams would give us an awkward game. For example, Auchinleck away yesterday would have been a hard tie. Culter though, don't get anywhere when put up against these east and west sides. They don't compete well in the junior cup. They're not up to scratch in the context of the whole of junior football, and we should be absolutely thrashing them. They can't be lumped in with Irvine Meadow, Bo'ness and Auchinleck because they can't compete with them.

Edited November 20, 2011 by PaleGreySky

[lady-isobel-barnett]

There could well be something behind what Firhillista is saying. Attitude and the will to win may be not what it should be. I tend to cut McNamara some slack here and blame more the senior players. Ideally we want a manager that can rule with an iron rod, motivate players,is tactically sound and has a keen eye for spotting potential players but every club in the land wants the same. I happen to believe that mcNamara ticks some of the boxes and that's as good as we can realistically expect at our level and income stream.

What I do question is how easy it is to gloss over poor results in what's often termed the more meaningless of games.

This closed season we've played friendlies against teams we'd be expected to beat if they were serious fixtures. Defeats to Dumbarton & Blyth and a draw with Fleetwood Town can be termed meaningless but where's the win at all costs attitude?

Could it be we took that mentality into immediately ensuing cup games against Berwick and Stenhousemuir (a result but a poor half hearted performance)?

Then there's the reserve fixtures. Four defeats and two wins so far. Like the friendlies McNamara & Donnelly won't be paying much attention to the actual result but the players themselves should want to win every time they take to the field regardless of the lack of importance of the game itself.

For the record between friendlies, testimonials & reserve fixtures I make it we've played 11 matches losing 7 times, drawing once and winning just 3 times. I'd be even dafter than I am if I said that the results of any one of these games in isolation carried any importance but taken as a whole it points to a collective attitude problem.

[jagfox]

Is it just me, but if the juniors had access to the Scottish Cup 25 years ago this wouldn't feel as bad due to previous debacles?

[Jaggy1967]

Is it just me, but if the juniors had access to the Scottish Cup 25 years ago this wouldn't feel as bad due to previous debacles?

 

 

What if Aberdeen had the chance to play a junior team

[Jagsfan58]

Nice positive title - could have been worse to be honest at least we came away with a draw.

 

I'm quite glad junior teams are allowed to have a crack at teams like ours in the Scottish Cup - but for Thistle fans to have that OF "we are going to horse them" mentality is wrong - junior teams are by and large solid wee outfits - remember irvine meadow nearly pumping hibees last year or the year before at easter road? Ties like that have banana skin written all over them.

 

In addition to this many junior players are shoplifted by teams like ours to bolster squads so maybe there's a wee hint that the gap in quality is not so great after all ... that wee diddy team won their junior super league last year. I often go to see junior games like Pollok, Arthurlie, Irvine Meadow and Auchinleack and theres not much difference - aside from the fact that the pitches are usually in better condition than Firhill!

 

 

It was a positive title, it only mentions cup games after all!

Edited November 20, 2011 by Jagsfan58

[Armand2]

As much as football is a team sport, it is also an individual game in the respect that each player is up against his opposing number. Each player has to work harder, run quicker, jump higher than the guy he's up against - if every player does that, the team will gain a favourable result. This basic endeavour is what was lacking on Saturday.

 

It comes down to the old saying about fans appreciating the efforts of the players, irrelevant of the result. I will always applaud a team who has put in a shift and played for the jersey. Every player in any Lambie team knew he had to give 100% or else he'd be in for a bollocking. Even when he came in as caretaker after Gerry/Whyte, he transformed a team of non-tryers, got them working hard and we beat the league leaders and eventual Champions.

 

That knack of getting guys playing and running themselves into the ground for him is something I am pretty confident Jackie does not possess, unfortunately. I mean, as a player, I would have been keeking it if I had gave a half-hearted performance and was traipsing into the dressing room to face Lambie and Collins. Not sure Jackie and Sid have the same aura. And, unfortunately, to be a successful manager of Partick Thistle, I think that is a necessary quality you need to have. Even though he is a tosser, Derek Adams would have been a perfect Thistle manager, in my opinion.

 

Don't get me wrong, Jackie's still got my backing at the moment but I expect him to lead us round in circles rather than to promotion, much like McCall.

[joejag]

As much as football is a team sport, it is also an individual game in the respect that each player is up against his opposing number. Each player has to work harder, run quicker, jump higher than the guy he's up against - if every player does that, the team will gain a favourable result. This basic endeavour is what was lacking on Saturday.

 

It comes down to the old saying about fans appreciating the efforts of the players, irrelevant of the result. I will always applaud a team who has put in a shift and played for the jersey. Every player in any Lambie team knew he had to give 100% or else he'd be in for a bollocking. Even when he came in as caretaker after Gerry/Whyte, he transformed a team of non-tryers, got them working hard and we beat the league leaders and eventual Champions.

 

That knack of getting guys playing and running themselves into the ground for him is something I am pretty confident Jackie does not possess, unfortunately. I mean, as a player, I would have been keeking it if I had gave a half-hearted performance and was traipsing into the dressing room to face Lambie and Collins. Not sure Jackie and Sid have the same aura. And, unfortunately, to be a successful manager of Partick Thistle, I think that is a necessary quality you need to have. Even though he is a tosser, Derek Adams would have been a perfect Thistle manager, in my opinion.

 

Don't get me wrong, Jackie's still got my backing at the moment but I expect him to lead us round in circles rather than to promotion, much like McCall.

Pretty spot on!!

[Chicofan]

Attitude. If we beat Culter next week it'll because our players can play football better than theirs, not because we want to win the game more. To win competitions you need to have a team that hates losing. All the great managers instilled this in their sides - Stein, Busby, Shankly, Ferguson. Losing wasn't to be contemplated - not until the referee blew that final whistle, anyway. In Thistle terms, Auld and Lambie had the same approach. And you need players in the team who feel the same way. Billy Bremner, Dave Mackay, Graeme Souness always played like they'd rather lose an arm than lose a game. It didn't mean they won every match, but it did mean they were amongst the most successful players of their generation.

 

Again, as far as Thistle are concerned, we can all name players who had the same attitude - think about guys like Danny Lennon or Charnley most recently, or Jackie Campbell, Ronnie Glavin, Alex Rae from the League Cup side. We don't have that currently. That's why we're out of two cup competitions and can't beat a poor Junior team and why we're mid-table and sliding.

 

When we're allowed to play our game by the opposition, we can win matches. When we're not (and it's no coincidence that Culter were advised by Derek Adams - much as I hate to say it, a guy who obviously would lose blood to ensure winning), we're stuffed. We don't have players with the right attitude.Too many of our young players seem to be bedazzled by just being professional footballers. The seriousness that's required, the need to feel that this is a profession that requires their total commitment, doesn't seem to be there. Not yet, anyway. They're young and they can learn. Does our manager have it in him to teach them, though? Make no mistake, this is a watershed moment for McNamara. How the team responds to yesterday's result will go a long way to defining his professional future. Make a success of being the Jags manager and he can move on to more lucrative gigs. Fail here and go the way of McLeod and Collins and Whyte and Brittain and other 'young' hopefuls from the past.

 

Over to you, Jackie. I really hope - for everyone's sake - you make it.

 

Good post and good points

 

This game on Saturday is make or break time.

[potty trained]

Think quite a few folk have summed it up perfectly here.

 

What pains me is that McNamara was exactly the type of player that we are missing.

 

When he was in his prime, at Celtic, he would play in any position asked of him and would run through brick walls for his team. Anyone who remembers his squaring up to and strangling Mark Hateley will agree.

 

So it's baffling to see that he can't instill this in his players.

 

He was part of the playing squad last year, he then took temp management of them, so he had perfect opportunity to weed out anyone who he didn't think was up to the task.

 

 

One question... when the chips are down, no matter the result. Who is the last player you can say you've left Firhill thinking.... That guy ran himself into the ground for us today, he couldn't have given anything else.

[jagscast]

Think quite a few folk have summed it up perfectly here.

 

What pains me is that McNamara was exactly the type of player that we are missing.

 

When he was in his prime, at Celtic, he would play in any position asked of him and would run through brick walls for his team. Anyone who remembers his squaring up to and strangling Mark Hateley will agree.

 

So it's baffling to see that he can't instill this in his players.

 

He was part of the playing squad last year, he then took temp management of them, so he had perfect opportunity to weed out anyone who he didn't think was up to the task.

 

One question... when the chips are down, no matter the result. Who is the last player you can say you've left Firhill thinking.... That guy ran himself into the ground for us today, he couldn't have given anything else.

 

Brown Ferguson.

[Chicofan]

Think quite a few folk have summed it up perfectly here.

 

What pains me is that McNamara was exactly the type of player that we are missing.

 

When he was in his prime, at Celtic, he would play in any position asked of him and would run through brick walls for his team. Anyone who remembers his squaring up to and strangling Mark Hateley will agree.

 

So it's baffling to see that he can't instill this in his players.

 

He was part of the playing squad last year, he then took temp management of them, so he had perfect opportunity to weed out anyone who he didn't think was up to the task.

 

 

One question... when the chips are down, no matter the result. Who is the last player you can say you've left Firhill thinking.... That guy ran himself into the ground for us today, he couldn't have given anything else.

 

Wee Seany Kilgannon

[Mr Scruff]

Some good posts here, which I agree sum up the problem.

 

A lot of comment and analysis on football these days (maybe it was always so) is dedicated to the tactical nuances and how teams are set out.

 

But I was reading something recently which suggested that team sports often suffer from the whole being less than the sum of the parts. The precise example was a tug of war team - the more players you add, the less effort each individual puts in. By the time you get to eight participants it's only half the overall power you would expect.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect

 

Is this why teams reduced in number are often still competitive against full strength teams? And why a collective 'easing' against lower opposition is quite likely, and thus the management's responsibility to ensure doesn't happen.

 

This is principally a question of leadership. The right culture with the right role models and a sense of direction and purpose will prevent this effect - have the current management and team got it?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Brown Ferguson.

An excellent example of a player I really wished could have made the step up. Never hid even when it was obvious he was struggling.

[Guest fredthecheesecloth]

Jimmy Boyle

[Jaggernaut]

Boab McCulloch

 

and Jamie Dolan

Edited November 22, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[chunky jag]

i know some of these replies are tongue in cheek, at least i hope they are, but seriously, are u mob for real? what about rowser every week, best work ethic of any thistle player i've seen in 20 years.

[potty trained]

i know some of these replies are tongue in cheek, at least i hope they are, but seriously, are u mob for real? what about rowser every week, best work ethic of any thistle player i've seen in 20 years.

 

yup, that could have been a tongue in cheek reply aswell, shouldn't have been missed.

[muirboyPTFC]

i keep on saying this we missed a major trick with hardie because if you look at those games he played last year before he left the team had a bit of dig in midfield and he rubbed off on all the other players. You could see with dunfermline that he made a major change i personally would have pulled out all the stops to get him !!!!