Guarantees, Sky & The "new" Team From Govan - A Cynic's View

[CCjag]

I listened with interest to this morning's sports report on BBC Scotland which discussed the latest twist to the Rangers saga.

Relegation to the First Division with SKY being “guaranteed” an Old Firm fixture through a revamped Glasgow Cup.

The first suggestion is clearly designed to allow honour (I use the term loosely) to be satisfied by relegating Rangers but minimising the financial damage by limiting it to a one season demotion.

Not much point in the rest of us turning up next season, is there?

By hook or by crook (and how appropriate is that phrase?), the newco will shed the old crimes and debts and be back after the minor inconvenience of one season mingling with the lower orders.

As for the second proposal - intriguing that SKY can be “guaranteed” such a fixture since there are four senior teams playing in Glasgow and in membership of the Glasgow Football Association.

To offer such a “guarantee”, Rangers & Celtic would require to be drawn against each other in one semi-final with Queens Park facing PTFC in the other.

Suits us, but the cynic in me suggests that the intention is to offer SKY an Old Firm game with a trophy, and quite a magnificent piece of silverware it is, on offer at the end.

So might the draw be manipulated – a shameful suggestion I know – and then everything possible done to ensure that the “right” result emerged from the semis?

As I said, a cynical suggestion but then as far as Scottish Football is concerned, a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist!

Edited June 21, 2012 by CCjag

[Lindau]

and I am not too impressed with what our chairman has to say about it all. Yes I am all for an SPHell 1 and 2 but for their crimes NEWCO must restart life at the very bottom. Lets not forget here that this is a club that has cheated its way to titles and trophies by buying players they couldnt afford. This team has now shed this debt and arguably are now the most well off team in the country and more than likely will be back in SPHell 1 in one season with a war chest to go to work with. Be careful what you vote for Mr Beattie. If its made public that our club has voted to allow NEWCO into SPHell 2 that is me and my two kids finished with Firhill for good and 100 years of family tradition out the window!!

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/sfl/2012/06/21/rangers-in-crisis-death-of-ibrox-club-could-spark-the-birth-of-a-scottish-football-revolution-says-jags-chief-86908-23898840/

[Junior]

I can understand his viewpoint on this , 2 games v the h*ns and if they are right about a revamped Glasgow Cup to give Sky at least 2 OF games (talking about a leageu style tournament here) then at least 1 game v each arse cheek at Firhill maybe on the TV , in one season we could feasibly clear the debts that hang over us.

 

As much as it would be a reall boot in the sack to accept them into div 1 the scenario above is a massive win for Thistle and one Beattie is quite right to consider.

[Lindau]

I can understand his viewpoint on this , 2 games v the h*ns and if they are right about a revamped Glasgow Cup to give Sky at least 2 OF games (talking about a leageu style tournament here) then at least 1 game v each arse cheek at Firhill maybe on the TV , in one season we could feasibly clear the debts that hang over us.

 

As much as it would be a reall boot in the sack to accept them into div 1 the scenario above is a massive win for Thistle and one Beattie is quite right to consider.

 

I totally agree with what he says. League reconstruction is years overdue, but NEWCO must be demoted to the bottom of the pile and work their way up. We will get the benefits when they finally reach the league we are in at the time. If the Glasgow Cup senario comes off then Sky still get a few bigotfests a season

Edited June 21, 2012 by Lindau

[Jaggernaut]

and I am not too impressed with what our chairman has to say about it all. Yes I am all for an SPHell 1 and 2 but for their crimes NEWCO must restart life at the very bottom. Lets not forget here that this is a club that has cheated its way to titles and trophies by buying players they couldnt afford. This team has now shed this debt and arguably are now the most well off team in the country and more than likely will be back in SPHell 1 in one season with a war chest to go to work with. Be careful what you vote for Mr Beattie. If its made public that our club has voted to allow NEWCO into SPHell 2 that is me and my two kids finished with Firhill for good and 100 years of family tradition out the window!!

 

http://www.dailyreco...86908-23898840/

 

“The dichotomy for me has always been trying to balance sporting integrity with commercialisation as the two issues are so far apart but need to be brought together. This is a clever way of addressing both of them."

 

 

Did he really say "dichotomy"?

 

That might be funny, but the notion that sporting integrity is up for any kind of negotiation makes the entire venture a waste of time for anybody who wants to see fair sporting competition. I agree that these kinds of statements from clubs are causing many people to ponder whether it's worth paying to go and see professional football in Scotland.

[Mediocre Pundit]

Hmm...it's a tricky one. My absolute preference would be for Rangers to **** off and die, and anything we could do that would encourage that outcome should be done. However the worst that is likely to happen is a relegation to SFL3, and in all liklihood in three years time they're back in the SPL competing with Celtic and nothing has changed. As such if there's a long term option to change the structure of Scottish Football to give the OF less control of voting and more promotion/relegation to/from the top division (and a Glasgow Cup giving us some interesting games with the OF would be a financial side-benefit) then I'd probably bend over and take a bit of a bum-raping for the long-term good of the team.

 

I hope if this is what we do then the fans support the guys who do it. As long as they do it without in any way seeming to enjoy it.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I've yet to renew my season ticket, not for any political stance I add and I've up until today had no doubts that I would, but I may now require clarification.

I think the BBC understanding of the compromise originates from Roddy Forsyth at the Telegraph. Newco being voted into the SPL but immediately being demoted to our division as punishment for any past misdemeanour. Firstly that appears rather light punishment tho' I realise the minute they're out the SPL they and the other arse cheek will lose the restricted voting structure, which in a manner of speaking will be further punishment.

Newco not getting dealt with in a satisfactory way is a concern but up until this "development" mostly of an indirect nature as regards Thistle. A far more immediate cause for concern is the direct impact H*n/newco could have on our season. I can't see most SPL clubs voting in a two up two down system for next season and the best I can see is a re-introduction to some sort of play off format.

So what have? A ten club league (boo) with in all likelihood the automatic promotion place a foregone conclusion (boo) and only maybe a play off place beckoning, which again would be a format in all probability that would favour the 11th club in the SPL.

I should add that by me not purchasing a season ticket it wouldn't be primarily as a protest but more that I wouldn't wish to sit thru effectively less meaningful games both sides of new year.

 

Clarification please, Mr Beattie

Edited June 21, 2012 by lady-isobel-barnett

[lennythistle]

I've yet to renew my season ticket, not for any political stance I add and I've up until today had no doubts that I would, but I may now require clarification.

I think the BBC understanding of the compromise originates from Roddy Forsyth at the Telegraph. Newco being voted into the SPL but immediately being demoted to our division as punishment for any past misdemeanour. Firstly that appears rather light punishment tho' I realise the minute they're out the SPL they and the other arse cheek will lose the restricted voting structure, which in a manner of speaking will be further punishment.

Newco not getting dealt with in a satisfactory way is a concern but up until this "development" mostly of an indirect nature as regards Thistle. A far more immediate cause for concern is the direct impact H*n/newco could have on our season. I can't see most SPL clubs voting in a two up two down system for next season and the best I can see is a re-introduction to some sort of play off format.

So what have? A ten club league (boo) with in all likelihood the automatic promotion place a foregone conclusion (boo) and only maybe a play off place beckoning, which again would be a format in all probability that would favour the 11th club in the SPL.

I should add that by me not purchasing a season ticket it wouldn't be primarily as a protest but more that I wouldn't wish to sit thru effectively less meaningful games both sides of new year.

 

Clarification please, Mr Beattie

 

Think it would be worth emails to David Beattie asking him to fully clarify his belief/stance? He made reference to fans not being happy, so to avoid causing unrest with our own support, perhaps him giving us a full explanation would help. Last thing we need is fans not turning up as they don't agree with stance we took on this issue.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Think it would be worth emails to David Beattie asking him to fully clarify his belief/stance? He made reference to fans not being happy, so to avoid causing unrest with our own support, perhaps him giving us a full explanation would help. Last thing we need is fans not turning up as they don't agree with stance we took on this issue.

Will be doing so if and when I hear there's any substance to this.

[uberteeb]

Rangers should at the very least be punted to the 3rd Division, my preference is for a 3 year ban first effectively killing them.

 

But the one thing I will say, if Thistle vote for Rangers to have some sort of watered down sanction, ie 'relegation' to the 1st Division, I will be gone for good. If we are in anyway complicit in Rangers getting away with a decade of cheating that's it for me.

 

Are we really going to support this because we get to take part in a Glasgow Cup and maybe make a bit of money? Sporting intergrity before money always. And what do you think the other 9 teams in our league will make of us getting a financial gain from supporting a cheating football club? Does the story not also go that during Save The Jags that mob from Govan refused to give us even a signed strip to auction to help us stay alive?

 

This wouldn't even be under discussion if it wasn't one of the Old Firm. No to Newco.

[Jaggernaut]

Rangers should at the very least be punted to the 3rd Division, my preference is for a 3 year ban first effectively killing them.

 

But the one thing I will say, if Thistle vote for Rangers to have some sort of watered down sanction, ie 'relegation' to the 1st Division, I will be gone for good. If we are in anyway complicit in Rangers getting away with a decade of cheating that's it for me.

 

Are we really going to support this because we get to take part in a Glasgow Cup and maybe make a bit of money? Sporting intergrity before money always. And what do you think the other 9 teams in our league will make of us getting a financial gain from supporting a cheating football club? Does the story not also go that during Save The Jags that mob from Govan refused to give us even a signed strip to auction to help us stay alive?

 

This wouldn't even be under discussion if it wasn't one of the Old Firm. No to Newco.

 

It might help if you e-mailed David Beattie to make the strength of your position clear. I'd think that more than a few others feel likewise.

[Third Lanark]

and I am not too impressed with what our chairman has to say about it all. Yes I am all for an SPHell 1 and 2 but for their crimes NEWCO must restart life at the very bottom. Lets not forget here that this is a club that has cheated its way to titles and trophies by buying players they couldnt afford. This team has now shed this debt and arguably are now the most well off team in the country and more than likely will be back in SPHell 1 in one season with a war chest to go to work with. Be careful what you vote for Mr Beattie. If its made public that our club has voted to allow NEWCO into SPHell 2 that is me and my two kids finished with Firhill for good and 100 years of family tradition out the window!!

 

http://www.dailyreco...86908-23898840/

Mate might be an idea to email David Beattie via the club or if you have his own email address even better just to let him know what you think.

[Lindau]

Rangers should at the very least be punted to the 3rd Division, my preference is for a 3 year ban first effectively killing them.

 

But the one thing I will say, if Thistle vote for Rangers to have some sort of watered down sanction, ie 'relegation' to the 1st Division, I will be gone for good. If we are in anyway complicit in Rangers getting away with a decade of cheating that's it for me.

 

Are we really going to support this because we get to take part in a Glasgow Cup and maybe make a bit of money? Sporting intergrity before money always. And what do you think the other 9 teams in our league will make of us getting a financial gain from supporting a cheating football club? Does the story not also go that during Save The Jags that mob from Govan refused to give us even a signed strip to auction to help us stay alive?

 

This wouldn't even be under discussion if it wasn't one of the Old Firm. No to Newco.

 

Couldnt have put it better myself Uberteeb. Does Mr Beattie have a direct email address?

[Dark Passenger]

I'll put it as plainly as possible. Beattie can f**k off if he thinks we'd accept Rangers in Division One on the eve of a season many of us are quietly confident about.

[potty trained]

I'll put it as plainly as possible. Beattie can f**k off if he thinks we'd accept Rangers in Division One on the eve of a season many of us are quietly confident about.

 

agreed with every point, right up until: are quietly confident about...

 

 

For me it's about the morals of the game, and whilst yes, it would be an acceptable punishment for one of the broken rules, to remove all their points from last season, thus keeping Dunfy up and relegating them to Div1.

 

That relegated team with Div1 status has went bust and has formed as a new company/team... therefore should have to reapply to the league. starting off in the 3rd.

 

nothing to do with the level of competition they would provide or probably not, but if they were admited, as a newco into the first division, and the money grabbers on the board voted for this, i would struggle to show them, and therefore the team, any support.

[lennythistle]

Couldnt have put it better myself Uberteeb. Does Mr Beattie have a direct email address?

 

Yes, but [email protected] will also go to him. Think that's it , it's on official site.

[Dark Passenger]

I'm sure he'll read the fans sites as well, Lenny. It makes sense to.

[Fellow Traveller]

Not remotely surprised by Mr Beattie's approach to this and, as a result, not really disappointed because I never expected a more principled stance.

 

The newco applying to join at Div 3 is the least punishment that should be imposed. If more comes to light, their membership of any league should be terminated. And yes, that would mean Scottish football has to adjust to a whole new world, but so be it. That's unavoidable now. The cheats created this situation and the rest of the clubs have to deal with it honestly or the game's a bogey and we will be, when you get right down to it, no better than they are.

 

I'd have liked to see the Jags in a Scottish Cup final in my lifetime and in my old man's lifetime. At the very least, I'd have liked a fair shot at getting there. Go back to 2002 and we were robbed of even that chance by facing a team stuffed with players on EBTs, quite possibly on dual contracts, and as such not qualified to play. A Rangers fan told me this morning that was sour grapes, that these players would have signed for Rangers anyway and even their second team would have beaten us. So much for remorse.

 

To be so directly cheated by a team that already had massive advantages over us is bad enough. When it all comes out in the wash and then not to have the balls to insist on the severest punishment is pathetic and really leaves us with nothing to support.

 

 

[uberteeb]

It hadn't even crossed my mind that we have been denied the biggest day of football in a generation by these sods in the cup semi, even more reason to hate them.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

For me it's about the morals of the game, and whilst yes, it would be an acceptable punishment for one of the broken rules, to remove all their points from last season, thus keeping Dunfy up and relegating them to Div1.

 

That relegated team with Div1 status has went bust and has formed as a new company/team... therefore should have to reapply to the league. starting off in the 3rd.

 

nothing to do with the level of competition they would provide or probably not, but if they were admited, as a newco into the first division, and the money grabbers on the board voted for this, i would struggle to show them, and therefore the team, any support.

That's much as I see it.

Might be worth pointing out that if the vast majority of fans had been listened to the newco might well be starting life less tiers down simply because we had larger and thus fewer leagues. But of course the reason for not having larger leagues was down to having to have four ugly sister games a season.

The only compromise I'd be happy enough with is two SFL leagues of 16+ sides and newco could then start life one division closer to the SPL.

Edited June 21, 2012 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Fellow Traveller]

I've been touting this around for a while. Level playing field?

 

https://twitter.com/...9/photo/1/large

[potty trained]

March 08... Scottish Cup Quarter final... McGregor, Broadfoot, Cuellar, Dailly, Whittaker, Naismith (McCulloch 72), Davis, Thomson, Adam (Burke 58), Novo, Boyd. Subs Not Used: Alexander, Steven Smith, Furman.

 

April 08... SC Replay, rangers win for a place in the semi's against St Johnstone... McGregor, Whittaker, Weir, Cuellar, Steven Smith, Dailly, Burke, Thomson, Boyd (Cousin 85), Novo (McCulloch 77), Naismith. Subs Not Used: Alexander, Ferguson, Furman.

 

September 08.... League cup, rangers win in extra time for a place in the quarter finals... Alexander, Broadfoot, Weir, Bougherra, Papac, Pedro Mendes, Davis, Thomson, Novo (Lafferty 111), Boyd, Darcheville (Beasley 72). Subs Not Used: McGregor, Edu, Dailly.

[MWM]

Just watching SSN there, Charles Green trying to steal Bury's place in the Football League. What a ******* ******.

 

The whole thing is ******* making my head spin, whats happening?

 

Rangers in SPL?

Rangers in SFL3?

Rangers in SFL1 due to dodgy merger?

No Rangers at all?

Rangers buying an SFL or Football League club's place?

Edited June 21, 2012 by MWM

[Mr Bunny]

The other thing is I'm not sure the benefits of Rangers(newco) being allowed in would be that great. There are rumours floating around that there is more to come out and there is the strong possibility that there will be suing and counter suing about who owns assets such as Ibrox, the players etc. Even if the newco gets all the assets, they will be starting from scratch and won't be able to afford to keep their top players, in fact will have to field much more average players. Ibrox is expensive to keep up and how much season ticket money will they get when a lot of fans paid in advance and get nothing?

 

I could see a situation where they struggle - they may win games but scrape-bys and not the huge wins their fans would expect in a lower division. Maybe even quite a few draws and losses. Their crowds would be massively down so that only the teams who play them very early on get any real benefit. There certainly wouldn't be anything like the kind of cash that would make a massive difference to our debt.

 

OK there's some supposition on my part but if I'm wrong I'm sure it's only in a matter of degree - and their problems are nowhere over yet. I'm not avoiding the moral aspect - posters above have made it - I'm only pointing out that those guys that are saying the finance is more important are actually exaggerating the advantages of going along with the Newco's aims and underestimating the dangers.

[lennythistle]

I'm sure he'll read the fans sites as well, Lenny. It makes sense to.

 

I expect he and others at the club do....ask wee scamps as Paton give him stick at the player of the year for comments he'd posted about him !!

 

Just think sometimes things on here are not always as constructive as they could be and by emailing him and making feelings known, perhaps we'll get more clarity on the issue. I've done so today.

 

For me I feel there are some exciting and challenging times ahead for us. We are driving forward with the "One Thistle" scheme and I'm sure more will come from that. I've been happy with new signings and with who we have kept. Not saying we'll win the league but I do feel we can challenge this coming season. i renewed the season tickets despite it placing a big strain on my finances in support of what is going on at the club.

 

Forgetting whether we hate the Old Firm or not, what has been going on down in Govan has been a disgrace. For me , only the Old Firm would have everyone debating, arguing over what to do. The rest of us would already, at best, be in div 3. If we as a club are involved in a situation that finds them in our league next season, I fear we will lose the hard core support we have and it will be our own very existance that will be in doubt.

 

I've always believed David Beattie has always had the best interest of Partick Thistle at heart. He needs to be very very careful what he says and what actions he takes on this issue. We dare not lose the core support we have. We do and it could well be game over for us !