Meet The Manager Night

[ThickAsThieves]

I've met Erskine a few times and he's a great guy, there's no disputing that. I'm sure the decision to leave was difficult for him, but the security over a three-year deal is a no-brainer to be honest. He parted with many thanks from me. And that's that. I'm not pining for his return. As Noel Edmonds says, this is a step-up and although Erskine was arguably our best player last season, the question marks over whether our players could adjust were mainly hanging over Erskine and Craigen for me. Those who have had unorthodox routes into football. Craigen's passed that test with flying colours and Erskine is struggling. Is that because Dundee Utd's system doesn't suit him? Or because he's not a Scottish Premiership standard footballer? We would need to be sure that if we did re-sign Erskine, it's for footballing reasons and not the heart ruling the head. If there's a better option than Erskine - go for that.

 

I believe this is all hypothetical regardless. However, this summer I thought it would be an incredible signing if we could bring Harkins in. Having seen him last week, he looks finished at this level. You need to be careful with sentimentality in football.

[Noel Edmonds]

I get what you're saying Noel but if there ever was a player that fitted hand to glove with PTFC it is/was Chris Erskine.

 

In terms of offering new deals to them or free up resources at the tail end of last season, I'm led to believe that Paton early on said he would be leaving whatever happened. Erskine on the other hand told the club he had been approached- as was any club's right given he was out of contract at the end of the season- and the club asked them to keep them informed of who & what was being offered.

 

Now unless I've been given a total bum steer over this (which I doubt knowing who it was who told me) Erskine was offered the same money as DU were going to give him but the problem being the length of contract. We could only offer one year whereas DU were offering 3. With a baby daughter & 3 years guaranteed money it's a no brainer to make -at the time.

 

At the time this was first rumoured of a move to DU I wrote on here that I couldn't see it happening for reasons which involved our ex manager & promises he made re playing Erskine when he first got the job that never really materialised at that point.

 

I think it's an open secret that he's not happy not playing at the moment. Also, it was hinted that Gary Mackay Steven would be off before window shut. With this having not happened, Erskine not really currying favour with Tannadice support so far, the young lads Gauld & Armstrong playing well along with the Turkish lad, I think he's slipped quite a bit down the pecking order & us having started so well, I think he possibly is wondering if he's made the right decision.

 

We all know Erskine's a confidence player & it's not to say it won't happen at DU, but with Lawless 99.9% certain to be off by next year, I'd take Erskine back in a heartbeat if the opportunity arose & for me it wouldn't be a backward step. Not saying it'll happen but...

 

Absolutely he fitted into our system, but I'm glad to say that IMO I think he's now been replaced by a better player, in the current time, at this level. If the sad circumstance arose where Lawless did indeed leave at the end of the season then, assuming we'll achieve our objective of remaining in the league, I like to think we'd be able to set our sights higher on replacing him with someone who hadn't struggled to fit in at a fellow Scottish Premiership side, and who we would need to give the game time to that he never got at his last club.

 

If the part about there only being a 1 year deal on the table for him is true then that may reinforce my theory that the manager had concerns over the amount of time it would take for him, and the unique type of player he is, to find his feet in a much more demanding league. Of course Erskine was right to take the 3 year deal, and good on him.

 

All this said, I too absolutely love the guy. Some of the best goals I've ever seen Thistle score were scored by him. I hope it all comes together for him sometime soon. I'ts just great to see that the manager didn't hang about and has assembled a really impressive group of players for what, just over a month ago, seemed a really daunting task.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Noel Edmonds

[Garscube Road End]

Agree with most sentiments on here regards Erskine. And the fact that Archie and Shaggy have assembled a good strong squad without comprimising the club finacially and footballing wise is the most pleasing thing about it all.

 

It is astonishing how well Archie has done in a short space of time, and my biggest fear is if he keeps this up, (and I have no reasons to think otherwise) is that bigger clubs coming looking!

[Trotter]

If the part about there only being a 1 year deal on the table for him is true then that may reinforce my theory that the manager had concerns over the amount of time it would take for him, and the unique type of player he is, to find his feet in a much more demanding league.

 

Just to clear this up. I was told on the money that DU were offering Erskine we would only be able to do that for the one season. Obviously It was a case of where we would be playing in 2014/15 & as such couldn't carry that wage in worse case scenario. It wasn't a one year deal as such.

 

 

[madcapmilkdrinker]

Actually, at the Jags Trust AGM there was an interesting discussion (open to all members) about why the current Chairman of the PTFC Ltd Board is prepared to take money and support from the Trust but refuses to acknowledge its contributions, although he does acknowledge less substantial contributions to the club's activities. It may be worth shareholders' while asking why this is so at the upcoming Annual General Meeting of PTFC Ltd.

 

There in a nutshell is why no one gives a f*ck about the JagsTrust.

 

If the JT's main concern is not getting a pat on the arse from Beattie then they should disband immediately.

[GrantB]

I'm interested in reading that we only offered Erskine a 1 year deal when we offered 2 year deals to the majority of players this season.

 

I also think that if Lawless does go at the end of the season, a team containing both an on form Erskine and Higginbotham could tear defences apart. Would take time to restore Erskine to his former self after having a season at Tannadice under snake eyes.

[Mad Mull Jag]

I'm interested in reading that we only offered Erskine a 1 year deal when we offered 2 year deals to the majority of players this season.

 

I also think that if Lawless does go at the end of the season, a team containing both an on form Erskine and Higginbotham could tear defences apart. Would take time to restore Erskine to his former self after having a season at Tannadice under snake eyes.

 

I heard it was a 2/3 year deal but the money was only guaranteed for 1 year ie if we go down your wage will go down, whereas DU were offering same cash over 3 years no matter where they are playing.

 

This will probably be the same for the guys on the newer deals , an element of sensibility from the manager/board to protect us if we go down but gives th eplayers the incentive to stay up

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Not much point really in discussing Erskine at the moment. He'd have to have a fairly disastrous season to be available. We're not going to buy out the guys contract on the terms he signed for but on reduced terms I suppose there's always a possibility of him rejoining. And if Archie was to sign him next summer it might just be to bolster the strength in depth of the squad not as a direct replacement for Lawless. I'd be happy with that.

[Mediocre Pundit]

At the big Jags Trust meeting at Glasgow Uni (a few years ago) it was clear that some within the Jags Trust sought power ahead of working to the benefit of PTFC. They won the day, the good guys resigned shortly after, and it's been a waste of space ever since.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

At the big Jags Trust meeting at Glasgow Uni (a few years ago) it was clear that some within the Jags Trust sought power ahead of working to the benefit of PTFC. They won the day, the good guys resigned shortly after, and it's been a waste of space ever since.

 

Agree. That was when I realised we really need a supporters association to represent the wider fanbase and leave the Trust to be a plaything of the few. Up to that point I thought it being the only game in town we had to persevere with it.

[GrantB]

At the big Jags Trust meeting at Glasgow Uni (a few years ago) it was clear that some within the Jags Trust sought power ahead of working to the benefit of PTFC. They won the day, the good guys resigned shortly after, and it's been a waste of space ever since.

 

This.

 

Anyone of the Jags trust apologists going to have the guts to address this...

[ian_mac]

 

 

This.

 

Anyone of the Jags trust apologists going to have the guts to address this...

 

Don't hold your breath Grant.

 

 

[mrD]

theres been so many twists and turns in the whole jags trust saga over the years it would probably be helpful for someone to putforward a basic chronology of the events over say the last 5 years or so which can serve as something to be contested by various parties...

 

for me personally i've never understood the logic of how the problems of a democratically elected body can be sorted by the replacement by another democratically elected body which caters to the same set of football supporters. If the problem with democratic body x is that a bunch of self serving wanks get elected onto the board then what is there to stop the same self serving wanks getting elected onto democratic body y?

 

I also can't see how a club led 'supporters association' can ever lead to confidence in its remit in making the club accountable to the fans. Surely such a body will inherantly have conflicts of interests embedded within them at best, or at worst would be a mechanism for the club to manage/manipulate fans concerns giving it the veneer of having their 'assent' by their 'involvement'.

 

Its because of these concerns that i think that if there are problems with how the trust operates the fight to solve said problems ought to take place within the independant structure already in existance (ie the trust) rather than setting up an alternative organisation - especially one that is club led - i mean FFS can you imagine what it would be like if your employer decided to disband your union setting up an alternative organisation to represent your interests?

Edited September 8, 2013 by mrD

[Lambies Lost Doo]

mrD is spot on. The Jags Trust is a body where fans can join, contribute and be elected to influence the club as it owns shares in PTFC. However it shows the utopian dream of "fan owned clubs" is difficult to manage as people fall out and have hissy fits and then resign and slag it off from the sidelines on message boards. This happens in all walks of like from youth club football, PTA's, Round Table you name it. Committees and local organisation are very difficult to manage as people do not accept that they will be voted against or people will disagree with them. This happens in work all the time - I can imagine if I threw my toys out everytime I was overuled or an idea parked I'd be out of a job. You suck it up and move on. I'm not a member of the trust, I probably should be, but if people really want to influence it then they can join and get voted in. It's democracy but when democracy works and they do not like the result instead of staying and continue to work they jack it all in.

 

At the very least it is bad manner and bad form to have a go at people on a message board who are putting effort in. It's almost cowardly when if you really cared you could engage with the people face to face in a respectful manner and work together.

[Dunfermline Jag]

At the big Jags Trust meeting at Glasgow Uni (a few years ago) it was clear that some within the Jags Trust sought power ahead of working to the benefit of PTFC. They won the day, the good guys resigned shortly after, and it's been a waste of space ever since.

I have had very little involvement with the trust over the years but, IIRC, the MAJORITY of the trust board resigned which suggests to me that the good guys as you call them (and I have no reason to doubt you are correct) CHOSE not to take the trust forward and left the field open to the others. Why they did so I have no idea, but it effectively ended the trust as a credible voice for the fans and, up to now, nothing has replaced it.

[uberteeb]

I'd be interested to get a brief history of this Jags Trust as well.

[Norgethistle]

I have had very little involvement with the trust over the years but, IIRC, the MAJORITY of the trust board resigned which suggests to me that the good guys as you call them (and I have no reason to doubt you are correct) CHOSE not to take the trust forward and left the field open to the others. Why they did so I have no idea, but it effectively ended the trust as a credible voice for the fans and, up to now, nothing has replaced it.

 

If I remember correctly these guys resigned due to not being able to take the trust forward due to its "inner workings", but I may be wrong

[Willjag]

Banging their heads off a brick wall seemed to be the reason most of these guys chucked it. I think some of the JTB were happy to just roll along. There quite a few on the Board now who don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush and it's a shame they are being found guilty by association.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

If I remember correctly these guys resigned due to not being able to take the trust forward due to its "inner workings", but I may be wrong

 

Actually it doesn't really matter if you are correct tho' I think you are. It's generally perceived that "inner workings" wore down a series of well intentioned Jags fans that joined the Trust Board. Those I've met who subsequently resigned all had both expertise and fresh enthusiasm to bring to the table. It's hardly likely to be coincidental that they all felt obliged to resign so soon after joining the Jags Trust Board for personal reasons unconnected to their involvement on the board.

 

Anyway I've long believed that any failings the PTFC Board have at present or in the past during the Cowan, Hughes, McMaster era could've been tempered to some degree if we had an effective supporters association. The Trust could and should've been that association. Whilst I feel there's validity in criticising David Beattie & Co for both lack of communication and other initiatives coming unstuck I do also feel a lot of the off the field problems could've been dealt with, partly at least, if we had a fans association to bridge the gap. The Trust obviously don't see either customer care issues or wider representation within their remit and that's fair enough. Just a pity there's no other association that would.

[jags365]

At the big Jags Trust meeting at Glasgow Uni (a few years ago) it was clear that some within the Jags Trust sought power ahead of working to the benefit of PTFC. They won the day, the good guys resigned shortly after, and it's been a waste of space ever since.

Apologies for being late to the conversation - IIRC this meeting was called primarly to talk about Propco, though of course nothing was off limits. I don't think I'll be wrong in assuming the 'some' are the same folk as the 'Northwest Three'?

Dealing with that part first, of the Three, only one remains on the JTB, and if you believe that person is purely seeking power then I don't really know what to say as it's clear that the Trust currently doesn't have any - at least not with PTFC LTD board.

 

I don't want to have to talk about people resigning from the Trust Board (if the people involved want to, then I can't stop them) but I think I can say that there was a difference in opinion of how best to take the Trust forward.

 

However, after a few years of struggling to get by, I think we do now have a good bunch of folk together: Gary gentles - one of the managers at CCH, David Mains who I'm sure many of you know helps to set up & run the Firhill Cup, Paul Devine of the Cumbernauld bus as well.

Hopefully be able to push on and hopefully address some of the issues - namely with communication. I will admit that when I took over the memership stuff after Fiona left the board I didn't appreciate how time consuming it can actually be - though now I've been at it for a year it should hopefully be smoother - we've also tried to relaunch the Twitter account and we'll be trying to do a few more newsletters this year as well.

 

I realise these are only small steps into a larger problem but we are trying to turn it around.

[jags365]

As for the TAG/Supporters Federation vs Jags Trust argument, as MrD and LLD say, the Federation won't be able to challenge the PTFC LTD Board, where as with the 1M shares, the Trust is still able to influence matters when it comes to voting time at AGMs etc.

Last year when the club called the EGM for trying to change some of their rules, they were all voted down first time around after we had made quite clear that we wouldn't simply allow them to change them without at least trying to explain the reasons for doing so.

[jags365]

Anyway I've long believed that any failings the PTFC Board have at present or in the past during the Cowan, Hughes, McMaster era could've been tempered to some degree if we had an effective supporters association. The Trust could and should've been that association. Whilst I feel there's validity in criticising David Beattie & Co for both lack of communication and other initiatives coming unstuck I do also feel a lot of the off the field problems could've been dealt with, partly at least, if we had a fans association to bridge the gap. The Trust obviously don't see either customer care issues or wider representation within their remit and that's fair enough. Just a pity there's no other association that would.

Since I've been on the Trust Board, I don't think we've ever turned down a request from the club for anything. But it doesn't help when you're trying to build a working relationship if the head of the other organisation sees fit to constantly play down or just outright dismiss anything that you're doing for them.

[Norgethistle]

As for the TAG/Supporters Federation vs Jags Trust argument, as MrD and LLD say, the Federation won't be able to challenge the PTFC LTD Board, where as with the 1M shares, the Trust is still able to influence matters when it comes to voting time at AGMs etc.

Last year when the club called the EGM for trying to change some of their rules, they were all voted down first time around after we had made quite clear that we wouldn't simply allow them to change them without at least trying to explain the reasons for doing so.

 

Out of interest Jags365 how many paid up members are in the trust now?

I check the JT site from time to time but don't really see anything "Thistle wise" happening only charity / community things and the annual AGM, from someone on the outside looking in it doesn't appear to do anything really Thistle related (meet the manager excluded), its not a dig or a snipe but nothing on the site makes me feel like this is the thing I need involved in

[jags365]

Out of interest Jags365 how many paid up members are in the trust now?

I check the JT site from time to time but don't really see anything "Thistle wise" happening only charity / community things and the annual AGM, from someone on the outside looking in it doesn't appear to do anything really Thistle related (meet the manager excluded), its not a dig or a snipe but nothing on the site makes me feel like this is the thing I need involved in

That's a fair point Norgethistle - outwith the Meet the Manager and POTY there aren't really many things we can do, but again it's something we've been looking at and trying to get more events going for this year.

In terms of the website, again if nothing is happening then it's quite hard to post an update, but as I've said with more events coming up this should also hopefully be less of an issue as well.

[Norgethistle]

 

That's a fair point Norgethistle - outwith the Meet the Manager and POTY there aren't really many things we can do, but again it's something we've been looking at and trying to get more events going for this year.

In terms of the website, again if nothing is happening then it's quite hard to post an update, but as I've said with more events coming up this should also hopefully be less of an issue as well.

Thanks for the feedback

 

 

Do you know how many paid up members are in the trust these days?