Jags V Hibs

[Barney Rubble]

We have a young team, inexperienced at this level and ditto the manager. This season is a steep learning curve. Has anybody noticed any change in our playing style in order to make the most of the chances we create? It seem to me we are simply running out week after week hoping that our luck will change.

 

"Keep playing our way and results will come."

 

I'm not so sure and I think the players confidence will be affected if we don't try something else in front of goal soon.

 

Well, a couple of things spring to mind.

 

We do not hit a byline often enough - too many crosses from deep, and frankly, about one in ten cause any danger to the oppo defence. Doolan and Baird are hardly strikers built to deal with that kind of delivery.

 

As for tonight, the odd thing was our best chances came from long balls out of defence. Hibs were shocking in that regard. Gary McAllister also picked up on the number of times we intercepted them playing square balls across the midfield, which for a pro team (actually any team) is unbelievable.

 

I accept that it's a learning curve, but we also need to learn to be ruthless too. Shut outs and Doolan and Baird fully punishing oppo mistakes are absolutely at the top of that list. I'm accepting now that we'll likely get pumped by the Fakes and the East End ones which takes us to the end of the first quarter.

 

After that we need to be sharp, and then some.

[lewcal]

As enjoyable as last season was with the attractive football there comes a time when we need to realise that that simply isn't going to be enough to challenge or even stay in this league. Pretty much every team has us sussed out before a ball is kicked and it's decision time for Archie wether he sticks by his philosophy or has the team roll their sleeves up and win ugly. Tonight has got to be the match when when we realise that it isn't just bad luck that costing us points. Too many of our bigger players are hiding at the minute and if things don't change soon it could be a long hard winter.

[read'n'yell]

If we had a player like May in the team, we would of won. Lawless needs to improve his game. Bannigan really has to step up, I've been saying this for weeks, he isn't performing at all. Craigen should be in for him. Outwith them, I think everyone played fine. We need a decent striker or we are going to struggle. Before Hibs scored I thought they were the worst team we have played this season - they were awul.

 

Doolan has to take responsibility for not burrying that chance. Yet another game without a clean sheet. Teams know they can come here, score one goal and it be enough for at least a draw, or a win. Teams are getting points off us far far too easily. Highly frustrating.

[Fearchar]

Why can't we hit a byline once in a while?...

 

IMHO that's the very last thing we should be doing. These boys are watching too much of the Football League Show and not enough of the Bundesliga Highlights: they keep trying to cross the ball into the box to a small, lone striker. Our football in the first two-thirds is class, but in the final third it's lower-league stuff. We stuffed Ross County by playing through the midfield, and wild punts weren't made into the box. For as long as we don't have an old-fashioned rummle-'em-up centre-forward, then we have to play to our advantages. If that means we get many of our goals through fouls against us in the penalty box, then so be it - they still count. Shouldn't we be learning from the likes of Bayern München instead of, say, Doncaster?

 

That said, Osbourne has made a tremendous difference by providing a physical presence in midfield. Playing Lawless at this level, on the other hand, has exposed him as too lightweight: he simply gets muscled off the ball. (Whether referees should be allowing that is another question, but we have to take the low level of officiating that's given.) We can't afford to play him against established physical top-league Scottish sides, and another contract for him would look like the triumph of hope over experience.

[ThickAsThieves]

Doolan will be disappointed with himself tonight. He played well and put himself about, but he should've netted that chance. Thought Elliott had got us a late equaliser too, but good save from Williams there.

 

On the whole we played well. Just can't score though, which is so, so frustrating. I'd stick Duggan on the bench soon, he might be the goalscorer we're crying out for. Also, I've been saying for a couple of weeks now that Forbes deserves his chance from the start. Lawless, Bannigan or Welsh can be benched for him.

 

Don't think there's any danger of us finishing 11th. St. Mirren are howling, and Killie aren't much better. Hearts are done and dusted. We're playing great, we've got no cutting edge, but once that's remedied (the question is - how long will that take? January?) we'll be treated to some more wins.

 

Brought three neutrals along tonight. They left impressed.

[David Stevenson]

I honestly think there is too much negativity on this thread. We made some great chances and should have won. Not only that, we were miles better than Hibs all over the park. I think they had about one chance and Craig swept it away with a brilliant finish. They spent £200K on Collins and for all Doolan should have scored, he was head and shoulders above Collins regarding just about every aspect of play. Hibee-supporting neighbour was at the game and concurred with that view.

 

I don't think Hibs had us "sussed out" at all. They certainly didn't stop us creating chances. The problem was that we failed to bury them. Doolz and Christie really should have scored.

 

Agree with the sentiment that we need to hit the bye-line more often. I think we also need more bodies in the box more often to try to take advantage of our attacking play. Was listening to Billy Dodds comments on the radio on the way home. I honestly think it would be a good idea to ask him to work with the forwards and the attacking midfielders. Would probably be a better use of cash than signing an untried forward in the hope that he can score when the going gets tough. As to the calls to play Duggan, if he is good enough he will get played. Archie is no mug.

 

Onwards and upwards. I saw ICT on Sportscene last night and they looked rank, St Johnstone pulling them apart with a pass and move style around the box. They are more physical than us on the whole, but Welsh and especially Osbourne (great game again tonight) can compete. I certainly don't fear the game up there though it won't be easy.

 

Would be great to have a goal-machine centre-forward though........

Edited October 7, 2013 by David Stevenson

[Dez90]

Same old story all season so far, made to pay for not taking our chances. Thought tonight we had to many passengers, Lawless is far to weak and doesn't look interested at all, Bannigan doesn't look fit, never done half the amount of running and chasing back as what he usually does, Higginbotham was in and out of the game but pretty much nonexistent. Isaac Osbourne was our midfield for the majority of the game! What a stand out! Hard in the tackle, distributed well and always found a man. Thought they got some luck for their goal, Balatoni makes a challenge and the ball bonces off their player and manages to break free with it. No doubting that Craig took the goal well but just sums up how our season has been at home!

[ThickAsThieves]

I honestly think there is to much negativity on this thread.

To be fair, it's reached the point now where there's real merit in their frustration. We deserved to beat Hearts, Kilmarnock, and now Hibernian. That's 9 points, instead we've picked up 2.

 

I've approached this season with the mindset that we've not been in this league for close to a decade; so just enjoy it. As long as we play well, I leave reasonably happy. Because I'm convinced we won't be relegated - as there's too much dross in this league - I'm just enjoying every moment. Apart from the Aberdeen game, the only time I've been genuinely unhappy with this season. And that's because we just weren't in that game at all. We can't score and it's a major problem, but I'm not adding any negativity.

[David Stevenson]

they keep trying to cross the ball into the box to a small, lone striker.

 

We stuffed Ross County by playing through the midfield, and wild punts weren't made into the box.

 

 

We could try both maybe? We hit crosses into the box from so far out that Doolan or whoever often has little chance (though he should have done better with the header). Hit the bye-line, cut it back for on-rushing midfielders getting into the box and you will have the chance to score. Malmo did that against Hibs and slaughtered them.

 

We need to get behind defences, either by using the flanks or playing through them by passing and moving in the way you suggest (that was how St. Johnstone did for ICT at the weekend). Regarding teh County game, I have rarely seen a defence play as high a line as County played in that game with us. We won't get the opportunity to play through most other defences like that!

[Fearchar]

....Onwards and upwards. I saw ICT on Sportscene last night and they looked rank, St Johnstone pulling them apart with a pass and move style around the box. They are more physical than us on the whole, but Welsh and especially Osbourne (great game again tonight) can compete. I certainly don't fear the game up there though it won't be easy.

 

Would be great to have a goal-machine centre-forward though........

 

It might be great, but we don't have that gigantic centre-forward that will outreach the gigantic centre-backs typical of British football. So why advocate crossing into the box for this non-existent centre-forward? IIRC, we've seen the same tactic produce absolutely nothing for several games on the trot now. However, St Johnstone tore ICT apart with a passing game, and if we played to our advantages instead of copying other teams' tactics, we'd be revelling in it like that. It was worrying to see the team resort to head tennis and long kicks out from Scott Fox tonight - a sure sign that they were rattled and letting the play get out of their control.

[Lionel J. Botch]

I think the reason tonight is a terrible result is our next run of fixtures. ICT away, Celtic home and Aberdeen away. Could easily see no points in these 3 matches.

 

Doolan really had to score when through one on one. Could have lobbed the keeper he was so far away from his goal line. This chance came from a long ball, not an intricate passing move. Maybe we need to mix it up a bit more.

 

Through all the promotions I have seen, there are some player who just cannot make the step up. Lawless is in danger of falling into this bracket.

[Big Col]

I've criticised SOD last couple of games for his forward play and final ball, but tonight I thought he played well in defence and also going forward. Never thought we were in danger of losing a goal and when we did, I felt like i'd been hit by a truck. No justice in football sometimes but shows what a harsh league the EssPeeEll can be. If you don't take your chances, then you're gubbed. But their keeper got MOTM so that tells it's own story. It's another hard defeat to take - we've only really played pish in one game (Aberdeen) and half of another game (Motherwell) but no cutting edge is hurting us. But at least the chances are coming. Next 3 games are tough though and I can see it being 4 losses in a row, not because I'm saying we are poor but because it's 3 good teams in next 3 games.

[David Stevenson]

It might be great, but we don't have that gigantic centre-forward that will outreach the gigantic centre-backs typical of British football. So why advocate crossing into the box for this non-existent centre-forward? IIRC, we've seen the same tactic produce absolutely nothing for several games on the trot now. However, St Johnstone tore ICT apart with a passing game, and if we played to our advantages instead of copying other teams' tactics, we'd be revelling in it like that. It was worrying to see the team resort to head tennis and long kicks out from Scott Fox tonight - a sure sign that they were rattled and letting the play get out of their control.

 

You seem to be missing my point. You don't need to hit the bye-line and loft it. How about a low cut-back towards the penalty spot for a "late-arriving" midfielder to have a shot with a forward momentum and his head over the ball? I think we're agreed that it is possible to play a passing game so long as you are slick enough, which I think we can be, but the County performance is a red herring in that regard. We played in behind them at the half-way line, not the edge of the penalty box.

[Fearchar]

We could try both maybe? We hit crosses into the box from so far out that Doolan or whoever often has little chance (though he should have done better with the header). Hit the bye-line, cut it back for on-rushing midfielders getting into the box and you will have the chance to score. Malmo did that against Hibs and slaughtered them.

 

We need to get behind defences, either by using the flanks or playing through them by passing and moving in the way you suggest (that was how St. Johnstone did for ICT at the weekend). Regarding teh County game, I have rarely seen a defence play as high a line as County played in that game with us. We won't get the opportunity to play through most other defences like that!

 

Our play down the flanks is winning us nothing bar corners - and we're not scoring from them either. Most European sides that are shepherded away from the danger area in front of goal realise they're running into a cul-de-sac and quickly get the ball back in front of the goalmouth where scoring is more likely. We aren't creating goals through our full-backs but they're being suckered into giving up possession with aimless crosses - and then the full-back is out of position, conveniently for the opposition's counterattack. If it's not a part of our game that's succeeding, then an alternative needs to be played - not more of the same. The tactics need to be rethought to take advantage of the squad that's there rather than the one Archie had hoped to have; otherwise we'll keep getting beaten by poorer teams, like tonight.

[potty trained]

 

 

You seem to be missing my point. You don't need to hit the bye-line and loft it. How about a low cut-back towards the penalty spot for a "late-arriving" midfielder to have a shot with a forward momentum and his head over the ball? I think we're agreed that it is possible to play a passing game so long as you are slick enough, which I think we can be, but the County performance is a red herring in that regard. We played in behind them at the half-way line, not the edge of the penalty box.

.

 

We've not really used SOD and ATS in that, move you describe, since McNamara left.... That being the low cut back to the late arriving midfielders.

 

We used to flood the box late. Infact I think that's the tactic that an airdrie player attributed to us giving them a doing last year, they just didn't know where all our attacking players were coming from,

[cjag78]

I agree that Forbes has to be given a chance. I like Lawless, he has a lot to offer but on nights like tonight and against Aberdeen, he is just a bit too lightweight and gets pushed off the ball tpo easily. Forbes is assured and composed on the ball with a great delivery. He also has goals in him...

Forbes is also slow and greedy and at times the quality he has lets him down aswell, Elliott for all his endevour isnt half the player Lawless is on his day and twice in this match Stevie was blatently shoved and a better ref would have given him fouls for both.

 

The problem with scottish football for years has been the mentality with coaches that if your not big enough your not good enough and that is why players like Lawless get this lightweight crap thrown at them all the time. I would rather watch 11 guys like stevie than watch 11 lumps punt the ball like NFL quarterbacks all night.

 

Bottom line is what everyone and there granny has been saying since the start of the season, we need a striker that will take the chances that guys like Lawless , Bannigan and Higginbotham are making but unfortunatly the club are not in the wage bracket to be competing for the same players as Kilmarnock, Hibs, St mirren and the likes.

 

For me Lawless was decent tonight and it would be interesting to see his stats cos i reckon he probably had most passes completed in the game with some cracking cross fielders as well, I ve said this before aswell he is left footed yet seems to be stuck out on the right all the time when last year him and Erskine would switch flanks quite often throughout a match which gave us more of a variation to our attacks and also kind of stops teams man marking you like aberdeen and motherwell done to him.

 

Issac was again superb he is becoming a bit of a machine for us and higgy was great in spells and wastefull in others, but the most worrying thing is not being able to keep a clean sheet, i really thought Conrads distribution was poor tonight and he put his team mates in trouble on more than one occasion, it was peeing doon aswell remember which probably didn't help and in this league there are players that have the quality to take the one chance to score when it comes there way like Boyd done for Kilmarnock thats what comes when you pay the higher wages.

 

I doubt any of the boys go out on to the pitch to have a shanner and its our job as fans to give them support whether they are our favourites or not , they are still wearing thistle shirts after all.

[Harry Wragg]

SOUNDS LIKE MY COMMENTS ABOUT LAWLESS ARE BEING SUPPORTED BY SOME !! NEVER GOT A MENTION IN ANY OF THE TEXTED COMMENTARIES I HAD TO TUNE IN TO TONIGHT ( AM ON NIGHTS ) SO WHAT EXACTLY DID HE CONTRIBUTE ? STATS WISE WE HAD TWICE AS MANY SHOTS AT GOAL AND THE SAME TWICE AS MANY ON TARGET AND STILL COULDNT PUT THE BALL IN THE NET !! WE NEED A BIG STRIKER SIGNED IN JANUARY !!

[potty trained]

Why a big striker?

 

Surely we just need a better striker?

[Winter of '63]

I think I have seen that movie before...although we weren't great, we were far better than a truly dreadful Hibs side...until they scored they made last season's Morton side look cultured and sophisticated...they were even worse than Hearts and Kilmarnock but we could all see that goal coming after we yet again had failed to make the most of possession and chances.

 

I really want Doolan to do well but that was a bad miss - Lawless has great skill but he is being muscled off the ball - Bannigan is not at his best so far forward...I don't think Baird or Elliot are quite good enough. I like Higginbotham but I'm not sure he produces enough from the wing - I would like to see him in the Chris Erskine role, just behind Doolan - that's where we need the cutting edge.

 

I hope the frustration of failing to put away sides we are outplaying doesn't affect the side's confidence and we keep playing the same way but a little better - we are not far away from being a very good side but it is easy to get sucked into a relegation dogfight.

 

Final positive note - O'Donnell and Taylor are much better footballers than McGivern,the peroxide donkey who played left back for Hibs.

[Watson Towers]

now on BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/24439372

 

 

...ouch.

[Chicofan]

Havent seen us in the flesh this season yet....but even from highlights and telly games..Doolan doesnt look like he can cut it....hopefully I can be proved wrong..his misses are dreadful

[Harry Wragg]

Why a big striker?

 

Surely we just need a better striker?

BECAUSE WE'RE UP AGAINST BIG DEFENDERS AND OUR STRIKE FORCE IS JUST NOT PHYSICALLY BIG ENOUGH !!! THE GOAL SCORING TEAMS HAVE GOT BIG FRONT MEN , ZOLA OF ABERDEEN SCARED THE CRAP OUT OF OUR DEFENCE AND WE GOT HUMPED , THATS THE TYPE OF CENTRE FORWARD WE NEED WITH THE POACHING ABILITIES OF BOYD , IT WONT BREAK THE BANK TO BRING ONE BIG DECENT SCORER IN

[cjag78]

I honestly think there is too much negativity on this thread. We made some great chances and should have won. Not only that, we were miles better than Hibs all over the park. I think they had about one chance and Craig swept it away with a brilliant finish. They spent £200K on Collins and for all Doolan should have scored, he was head and shoulders above Collins regarding just about every aspect of play. Hibee-supporting neighbour was at the game and concurred with that view.

 

I don't think Hibs had us "sussed out" at all. They certainly didn't stop us creating chances. The problem was that we failed to bury them. Doolz and Christie really should have scored.

 

Agree with the sentiment that we need to hit the bye-line more often. I think we also need more bodies in the box more often to try to take advantage of our attacking play. Was listening to Billy Dodds comments on the radio on the way home. I honestly think it would be a good idea to ask him to work with the forwards and the attacking midfielders. Would probably be a better use of cash than signing an untried forward in the hope that he can score when the going gets tough. As to the calls to play Duggan, if he is good enough he will get played. Archie is no mug.

 

Onwards and upwards. I saw ICT on Sportscene last night and they looked rank, St Johnstone pulling them apart with a pass and move style around the box. They are more physical than us on the whole, but Welsh and especially Osbourne (great game again tonight) can compete. I certainly don't fear the game up there though it won't be easy.

 

Would be great to have a goal-machine centre-forward though........

 

Your completly right m8 there is to much negativity we are supposed to be thistle supporters, and were no Barcalona.

[potty trained]

IT WONT BREAK THE BANK TO BRING ONE BIG DECENT SCORER IN

 

Please switch off caps lock!

 

And yes it will break the bank.

[The Earl of Hathaway]

Y'know what? It's a strange feeling to come out of games pissed off with the result, but excited and happy with the way we play. That's how I've felt quite a few times this season. And my feeling behind this is that, if we keep playing the way we are the results will come. Teams may be sussing out that we don't score goals, but keep creating those chances....

 

It will come.