Jaggernaut Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 What if we pump ICT the previous weekend? That would lead to a potential attendance of 15,000. But sadly, this is no longer possible at Firhill. We are consigned to being a wee club with wee attendances for ever more, it would seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stevenson Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Basically away fans can't be charged more than the corresponding price their own club charge away fans. So when we travel to McDiarmid or ICT's midden or anywhere we can't be charged more than £20 always assuming.that's what we charge our visitors. Of course. I was just clarifying things and agreeing in large part with your critique of my quick sum. Surely what you say here can't be true as our own website gives the prices that we can expect to pay at away fixtures and people have been complaining on here about potentially paying £25 at Parkheid. Don't you mean that a club can't charge home and away fans at a different rate for the same game (assuming parity of facilities)? Of course, we already do charge differently for kids at both ends, so maybe not..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Im amazed we even have a thistle given all those years without the lifeblood and most positive of thistle fans occupying the north stand. Try singing in a different part of the ground for a match. ..im sure u can manage to instil your positivity on the grumpy folk in the jhs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Thanks for the reply Z88 but you haven't even touched on my point regarding other fans. Do you think our club has performed its Duty Of Care when looking after other teams fans, by putting them in the main stand, when the police and safety team have raised concerns over its safety with regard to fans with a history of using flares? Do you think Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs fans should have been in the North Stand? Further, can you tell me the wording of this banner that "slates" David Beattie? It seems the police only consider this an issue for Celtic which is what the chair/board addressed. If the police consider other fans don't constitute a risk then I guess the club's duty of care has been authorised/overridden by a higher office. I think personally it's great that away fans are in the main stand ...the atmosphere is much better. As to the banner ...the inference of the wording is that David Beattie considers the fans an irrelevance. Seems to me he's worked pretty hard with the board to get this club sorted and back in the big time. I'm sure he was delighted to see the written acknowledgement of his hard work broadcast over the UK, and expect that would encourage him and the others to continue to knock their pans in for the benefit of the fans. I share everyone's annoyance at the Celtic accommodation situation but I think the criticism of the board has got a bit out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 It seems the police only consider this an issue for Celtic which is what the chair/board addressed. If the police consider other fans don't constitute a risk then I guess the club's duty of care has been authorised/overridden by a higher office. I think personally it's great that away fans are in the main stand ...the atmosphere is much better. As to the banner ...the inference of the wording is that David Beattie considers the fans an irrelevance. Seems to me he's worked pretty hard with the board to get this club sorted and back in the big time. I'm sure he was delighted to see the written acknowledgement of his hard work broadcast over the UK, and expect that would encourage him and the others to continue to knock their pans in for the benefit of the fans. I share everyone's annoyance at the Celtic accommodation situation but I think the criticism of the board has got a bit out of hand. Ok so you are guessing what the clubs Duty Of Care involved. First of all you said the banner slates David Beattie, and the fans parading the banner was a bigger pity, than the fans being moved. Now the wording infers David Beattie sees the fans as an itrelevance. Just to clarify... The wording is: Beattie, Listen To The Fans. How will he ever recover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Ok so you are guessing what the clubs Duty Of Care involved. First of all you said the banner slates David Beattie, and the fans parading the banner was a bigger pity, than the fans being moved. Now the wording infers David Beattie sees the fans as an itrelevance. Just to clarify... The wording is: Beattie, Listen To The Fans. How will he ever recover! Not guessing at all..the police/ safety carried out a risk assessment re Celtic fans and said there was a risk to be addressed. The club addressed it. The police/ safety considered there was no risk from other fans so there is no risk to address. Maybe DB will recover by producing a banner saying : Fans, listen to David Beattie, the Police and Safety Experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Don't you mean that a club can't charge home and away fans at a different rate for the same game (assuming parity of facilities)? Of course, we already do charge differently for kids at both ends, so maybe not..... Sorry. This is separate from the Celtic thingy and one for the future. Why I said it would be better on another thread. At present we have by regulation to charge the same price to away fans as we charge our own pay at the gate support. I'd rather see that amended to each club just sets its home price and the charge to away fans can be variable but not exceeding the home price.. So assuming present pay at the gate prices remain in future seasons we would still charge a St Johnstone fan £20 but when we visit McDiarmid they would be obliged to charge us a maximum of £20. Similarly if some other club were to have a pay at the gate price of £18 we'd not be able to charge their fans in excess of £18. I realise that's in contradiction of what we're doing with this match with Celtic but this of course would mean that Celtic could only charge us £20 max when we visit. Unlikely to happen as Doncaster & Co don't give a toss about the paying fan but it would put a stop to away fans being fleeced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Not guessing at all..the police/ safety carried out a risk assessment re Celtic fans and said there was a risk to be addressed. The club addressed it. The police/ safety considered there was no risk from other fans so there is no risk to address. Maybe DB will recover by producing a banner saying : Fans, listen to David Beattie, the Police and Safety Experts. Well you've made your position quite clear. Thankfully so did David Beattie in an interview with the daily record.., “There was a story that I’d banned Celtic fans from our main stand because they’d let off flares in the Glasgow Cup final, but I didn’t single out Celtic. It was decided, after consultation with the police, that away fans of all teams would be better off out of the main stand because it’s a wooden construction. “It’s a health and safety issue and I have a duty of care to everyone inside Firhill.” How quickly he has forgotten his duty of care to all fans in firhill. Let me just clarify again... Hearts Aberdeen and hibs fans all have a history, including this season of letting flares off at games, Mr Beattie was happy for them to be housed in a wooden construction, as he calls it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Ok, so only OF fans are allowed to protest? is that what i said? must have been, aye. Anyone who protests is automatically an OF fan? again, that must be what i said, so aye. Sorry, but it's your kind of logic yes well it's not that sounds like an OF fan to me.moot point, as explained above. "If he's not one of us, he must be one of them".paranoia? seeing secret celtic fans everywhere? go back to Rangers Media! Can I ask what you do, personally, to back the team every week?well, i go to watch them, clap, shout things, etc. nothing out of the ordinary. why do you ask? I'm willing to bet that some of the people who are criticising the fans for protesting are the same ones who were STILL moaning at the players from the JH stand when we were 3-0 up in games last season. Perfectly audible on some of the highlights.name names. Are you not an ex rangers fan, who sits in the North Stand? correct. i am not an ex-rangers fan who sits in the north stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/celtic-fans-firhill-stand-ban-127758n.21371272 The original story in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 correct. i am not an ex-rangers fan who sits in the north stand. What made you change your mind about moving to the North Stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Maybe the extra cash generated from more away fans might help strengthen the team giving a longer term benefit? That's the kind of logic that belongs in the Kilmarnock boardroom. The way the club will get more money is by attracting more people to support Thistle and by treating those fans with respect. Archie can only do so much with the team, the rest is down to David Beattie et-al. On this occasion (and a few others this season like TAG, championship DVD, sorting our the catering, stewarding of the baby shed etc etc), he's letting the fans down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Z88, if a hearts hibs or Aberdeen fan had lit flares, and a fire broke out and someone died. Are you saying that the police or safety team would have been accountable? As you seem to believe they over ruled the club directors Duty Of Care? ETA. As demonstrated in an FoI request, the police and safety team can only advise. The responsibility and accountability lies with the club. If someone lights a flare and a fire breaks out and lives are lost, it's the club who are accountable. With that in mind and with hearts hibs and Aberdeen fans history for letting off flares, our club decided it was acceptable to let them in as they call it, a wooden construction. Yet Celtic fans, it's a big no no? I'd like to know our clubs grading system for the compensation costs for lost life. It seems some fans are cheaper than others. Edited October 9, 2013 by potty trained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Z88, if a hearts hibs or Aberdeen fan had lit flares, and a fire broke out and someone died. Are you saying that the police or safety team would have been accountable? As you seem to believe they over ruled the club directors Duty Of Care? The lawyers would have a field day arguing over the liability for that horrific scenario. However my understanding is that If the club is granted a safety cert for a stand then a suitable risk assessment has been made by in this case the police/(or Glasgow City council). The clubs duty of care would extend to enforcing the requirements of that safety certificate eg occupancy numbers, stewarding, ensuring safety equipment and procedures are enforced etc. In the case of the Celtic fans the club have been specifically advised of additional risk which if it failed to take into account would be a duty of care issue. Since no advisement specifically for hearts, hibs and Aberdeen has been given then the club would meet its duty of care provided it enforced the terms of the safety cert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 What made you change your mind about moving to the North Stand? how do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Taken from our club website... It should be made clear that the Club are legally responsible for the safety of everyone inside the Stadium; not the police. The Club would be liable to criminal prosecution were anything to go wrong. If the Glasgow Council Safety Team make this a condition for granting a safety certificate for the stadium we have no option but to comply. If an incident were to take place at Firhill we need to satisfy ourselves that we took every possible preventative measure; unfortunately the people who pay for this stance are our own fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Taken from our club website... It should be made clear that the Club are legally responsible for the safety of everyone inside the Stadium; not the police. The Club would be liable to criminal prosecution were anything to go wrong. If the Glasgow Council Safety Team make this a condition for granting a safety certificate for the stadium we have no option but to comply. If an incident were to take place at Firhill we need to satisfy ourselves that we took every possible preventative measure; unfortunately the people who pay for this stance are our own fans. Yeah we're saying the same thing. The safety cert has been granted and we are responsible for meeting the requirement. In this case Thistle are moving the Celtic fans because they have been specifically advised of an additional risk not posed by other visiting supporters so are erring for this fixture on the side of caution. Hence jags fans suffer in this instance. Without doubt if the police had advised that other visiting fans carried the same risk then the same would happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Yeah we're saying the same thing. The safety cert has been granted and we are responsible for meeting the requirement. In this case Thistle are moving the Celtic fans because they have been specifically advised of an additional risk not posed by other visiting supporters so are erring for this fixture on the side of caution. Hence jags fans suffer in this instance. Without doubt if the police had advised that other visiting fans carried the same risk then the same would happen again. That's my point though... If the club are responsible. What advice has been provided that deems other teams not a risk? It's a bloody big gamble to take! Gambling with peoples lives. 6 of the 11 teams we will play have all had incidents involving flares at games this season, yet only one of them is deemed a great enough risk? It would seem to be bloody good advice if David Beattie is willing to put his livelihood and reputation on the line. But then again it's also shit advice considering the amount of incidents that have happened since the certificate was granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z88 Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 That's my point though... If the club are responsible. What advice has been provided that deems other teams not a risk? It's a bloody big gamble to take! Gambling with peoples lives. 6 of the 11 teams we will play have all had incidents involving flares at games this season, yet only one of them is deemed a great enough risk? It would seem to be bloody good advice if David Beattie is willing to put his livelihood and reputation on the line. But then again it's also shit advice considering the amount of incidents that have happened since the certificate was granted. The club act on advice from the Police Football Intelligence Unit. It would seem therefore that other teams pose no significant risk from flare related incidents. I guess flares have found favour with Celtic fans because they see it in the flesh on their European travels. Let's hope the novelty wears off soon anyway. Enjoyed the exchange of views potty- trained. Hope we are all celebrating a jags win come the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunnylaw Jag Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 If you end up in the main stand, are you allowed to bring your own washbasin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I must have imagined killie fans letting off a smoke bomb 2 weeks ago then. The points that potty trained has made show this decision up to be exactly what it is - a crock of sh*t. It has nothing to do with a duty of care or any of those soundbites that Beattie came out with. It's about maximising revenue. If he had been honest about this to start with I would have had more respect for him. But the fact that he's tried to maintain his image by lying about it is a disgrace. Hope Ajay Chopra and his pals enjoy their day out, we've certainly gone out our way to accommodate them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 I must have imagined killie fans letting off a smoke bomb 2 weeks ago then. The points that potty trained has made show this decision up to be exactly what it is - a crock of sh*t. It has nothing to do with a duty of care or any of those soundbites that Beattie came out with. It's about maximising revenue. If he had been honest about this to start with I would have had more respect for him. But the fact that he's tried to maintain his image by lying about it is a disgrace. Hope Ajay Chopra and his pals enjoy their day out, we've certainly gone out our way to accommodate them. Would you like to explain how moving the Celtic fans from the main stand to the NS is about maximising revenue. The 2 stands hold about the same,don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 I must have imagined killie fans letting off a smoke bomb 2 weeks ago then. a smoke bomb isn't likely to start any fires, as they don't produce a flame, whereas a flare does, and depending on type can burn at over a thousand degrees. that's a fire hazard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peebles Tackle Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 a smoke bomb isn't likely to start any fires, as they don't produce a flame, whereas a flare does, and depending on type can burn at over a thousand degrees. that's a fire hazard. Both are illegal to set off in public as far as I know, so it should really be dealt with severely by the police (that Thistle pay for) rather than make contingency plans in case it happens. Another example of pandering to the idiotic minority. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-118 Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 whatever peoples view are on this, we all need to support team - banners, protests, etc wont help the team and right now we need every bit of support possible (even if it means sitting in the main stand for one game) until we get back to winning ways. also, lets hope there are no smart arses that think we should be setting off smoke bombs / flares in the main stand just to prove a point - if so they should be given life bans from the club 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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