What Should The Long Term Ambitions Of Ptfc Be?

[Hankey]

It seems to me like we are stuck in a cycle. Spend between 5-10 years in the lower leagues before going up for handful of seasons and getting beat most weeks, before going back down.

 

We've had no major trophies in a generation now, haven't beaten either of the OF in years, no high finishes in the top flight, no european football in years, one visit to Hampden in how many years, not much of a lengthy run in the top league.

 

What should our aim be? Our support I feel is still of a decent level despite having had really **** all beyond a poxy 1st division trophy to show for the last umpteen years. We've got a huge catchment area on our doorstep also.

 

What are fans supposed to buy into? Being a club content just to plod along season to season, hoping rather than expecting to be successful, and "oh well", being answer to an inevitable relegation?

 

The club sold a message at the start of the season that we would push on, but outwith the Stevenson signing which has been a disaster, have we? *****ing about making signings late into August and giving contracts to players who couldn't crack the first division like Christie Elliott has the feel to me that we're a glorified first division club.

[Auld Jag]

Imo we should be capeable of staying in the top league for more than a couple of seasons.ICT St.Mirren etc have managed it with the correct management on and of the park we should to.

[Mr Bunny]

We are the least financially stable of all the clubs in our league - although things have improved a great deal in the last few years we still have bank debt and there are still problems with the ownership of the ground: the club won't make much money from any sale of ground for development. We have a good youth policy in place but only since very recently so haven't made the money from player sales other clubs have.

 

So basically we are on a kind of tipping point: we need to go canny and try to progress and we need to avoid the mistakes made by previous boards so we don't end up going backwards again. Ideally we need to avoid relegation but if we do get relegated we need to make sure we keep in place the good things started - the youth policy and a progressive style of play.

[billko]

Thistle also had a youth system that had been neglected for years and was in need of investment and a major overhaul.

 

This is all in place now and given time will surely have an impact in future success for Thistle when the club hopefully reaps the benefits from boys developed at the club.

It's never 100% guaranteed though but the club and through the generosity of the Weir's have a set up that will now attract some of the best young talent who might never had Thistle down as an option.

The standard at all age groups is now at a very good level and will no doubt continue to improve at the Academy.over the next few years.

 

So for me it's a bit of patience fans need and people maybe having a wee reality check as to where they think the club should be at this stage.

It was never going to be easy or have the buzz of winning every week as you would do in a lower league and i think folk need to realise this.

[dougie247]

We need to be patient for the next few years and allow talent to progress through our system.. What we do need though is someone in place who can handle that talent in the correct way. Given the way Archie seems to be unable to sort out the same problems we have known about for ages im not 100% sure its him.. That doesnt mean i think he should be sacked though! just means i hope we have someone with the knowledge to help integrate the youngsters into the adult set up.

[potty trained]

It seems to me like we are stuck in a cycle. Spend between 5-10 years in the lower leagues before going up for handful of seasons and getting beat most weeks, before going back down.

 

We've had no major trophies in a generation now, haven't beaten either of the OF in years, no high finishes in the top flight, no european football in years, one visit to Hampden in how many years, not much of a lengthy run in the top league.

 

What should our aim be? Our support I feel is still of a decent level despite having had really **** all beyond a poxy 1st division trophy to show for the last umpteen years. We've got a huge catchment area on our doorstep also.

 

What are fans supposed to buy into? Being a club content just to plod along season to season, hoping rather than expecting to be successful, and "oh well", being answer to an inevitable relegation?

 

The club sold a message at the start of the season that we would push on, but outwith the Stevenson signing which has been a disaster, have we? *****ing about making signings late into August and giving contracts to players who couldn't crack the first division like Christie Elliott has the feel to me that we're a glorified first division club.

 

IMO Elliott is exactly the type of player I think of when I think of our club. Maybe not the most gifted. But will give you everything he has got.

 

Right now? I'd be surprised if the majority of fans would put Stevenson ahead of Elliott in our team.

 

 

 

[Richard Nixon]

We're hardly into our second season in the top flight and crowds already seem to have bottomed out at two-and-a-half thousand home fans. That's despite Thistle currently being the second-highest placed team in Glasgow. We might have a huge possible catchment area, but that doesn't translate to attendances. Perhaps it's just this website and it's not representative of all fans at Firhill, but the atmosphere seems overwhelmingly hostile, negative and morose. What would a cup win or a top-six finish really do for our long-term future?

 

I could see some sort of drastic reconstruction maybe securing a stable future for Partick Thistle. A joint venture with Glasgow Warriors perhaps, where we sell the three-sided, now almost soulless (and soon to be smothered in a rabbit-warren of apartments) Firhill and move to a new place with an artificial pitch suitable for both rugby and football.

 

A new stadium in a different part of the city, designed for the best atmosphere possible - fully enclosed, safe standing, better and more varied facilities - might make the product more palatable. A sort of united sporting club with Glasgow promoted as part of it's identity might be attractive to more people, especially Old Firm fans tired of everything that has gone on with their teams. Making the matchday experience better value for money might encourage a new generation of families to attend.

 

Of course, there are deeply-ingrained problems with football in Scotland that go well beyond our own team that don't look like they're going to be fixed any time soon.

 

In all honesty I can see, if and when Rangers finally return to challenge Celtic, the clamours for their exit into the EPL will begin immediately and anew. And why not, with the result of the recent referendum debate? Scottish football will quickly resemble the Welsh leagues. Everyone outside the Old Firm will be reduced to part-time teams, and clubs such as ours will be a parochial pastime for a very small handful of dedicated followers.

 

Everyone will still keep moaning, though.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Perhaps it's just this website and it's not representative of all fans at Firhill, but the atmosphere seems overwhelmingly hostile, negative and morose. What would a cup win or a top-six finish really do for our long-term future?

 

Well I reckon that sort of success would just get the usual suspects ultra miffed the following season if not repeated. Or am I just being overwhelmingly negative?

[Lindau]

I thought Stevenson was going to be a great signing, going by when I saw him playing for the Jambo's, but dear oh dear, this is a guy that looks like he doesn't want to be within 50 miles of Firhill. It's a long time since I have seen a guy looking so disinterested in playing for a club. The players were openly commenting on how fit they would be after the pre season as the training was so tough, but it looks like Stevenson has been skipping training for the McDonalds in Maryhill Rd. He really does need to get the finger out pronto. With injuries taking their toll early on this season, I think the fact that the squad is threadbare (yes, that word again) is going to be proven over the next few weeks. Was astonished when Archie said the budget was gone. We must be paying pretty good wages to the likes of Osman, Stevenson, Eccleston and Seaborne if that's the case. I spent last night in Ayr with a couple of Killie fans that I know and they were astonished at how far we had regressed from last season. Yesterday's performance was totally unacceptable. Unless some of the players start getting the finger out we are in big trouble this season. The pressure is mounting. I was a staunch Archie man last season, but he has been in the job long enough now, so there can be no excuses on that front.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Lindau

[One t in Scotland]

A ground move would be a good start.

[H Wragg]

A ground move would be a good start.

 

Where to?

 

Firhill is handy enough for plenty of good pubs, which I feel is important in the grand scheme of things.

[Winter of '63]

IMO Elliott is exactly the type of player I think of when I think of our club. Maybe not the most gifted. But will give you everything he has got.

 

Right now? I'd be surprised if the majority of fans would put Stevenson ahead of Elliott in our team.

Really?? I think of Chris Erskine, Gary Harkins, Scott Patterson, Chic Charnley and Denis McQuade - flawed maybe, but worth going to a game to see a touch of brilliance...or really good top league professionals like Jackie Campbell, Andy Anderson, Doug Somner, Stephen Craigan or Alan Archibald. In my more wistful moments, I hope we will sometime have players as talented as Alan Rough, Ronnie Glavin, Alan Hansen and Mo Johnston.

 

Christie Elliot is a hard working player who always tries but he is very limited...he wasn't good enough to be a regular start in the First Division and if he is a player we should regard as a typical Thistle player, I won't be a regular attender at Firhill.

 

He's still been better than Stevenson though.

[Norgethistle]

A ground move would be a good start.

 

In my opinion moving away from Firhill (or immediate area) would kill the club, part of the appeal going to Firhill in the bad tmes is you can get a pint or a lunch, public transport is good, its not a legoland stadium in a retail park (or worse)

[The Cup]

We need to stay in the top league if we are to progress.

Going back down would be a disaster and undo the good work done over the past 3 years.

[Barney Rubble]

^^^^

 

What The Cup said.

 

Over to you Archie and the Board.

[AndyMac]

As a club we have been long time under achievers and are seen as a bit of a joke in some quarters.

 

Richard Nixon should change his name to Tony Blair, as his vision for "New Thistle" sounds just as awfull as Blairs New Labour.

 

I can't remember who posted this, but it was along the lines of " I don't care if we go down as long as we play good football" I agree with this much more than the present of playing grim football, to hang on in there and just about scrape by.

 

Firhill is a great stadium, alright it's a bit of a work in progress but it's steeped in history and is our home, only a charlaton would want to see us up sticks and set up camp in a souless breeze block, burger munching, popcorn monstosity in the back of beyond.

 

Let's be honest Glasgow is a big city and it's not everyone who likes their football served up with religion, there is a massive latent support out there to tap into? You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run, but with the youth academy there is no reason that we can not grow and prosper.

 

One of our old players, went into management and took over a team that was third rate and played second fiddle in their own city and turned them into one of the greatest football clubs in the world.

 

We have to believe, as the song goes, there's not a team like the Firhill Jags.

[Charlie Endell]

 

 

Where to?

 

Firhill is handy enough for plenty of good pubs, which I feel is important in the grand scheme of things.

Aye, I'd fair miss the S&G .

[Richard Nixon]

We have to believe, as the song goes, there's not a team like the Firhill Jags.

 

You might not think much of my ideas, but Thistle needs more of a plan than simply, "if you believe it, we will grow."

[Mr Bunny]

We're hardly into our second season in the top flight and crowds already seem to have bottomed out at two-and-a-half thousand home fans. That's despite Thistle currently being the second-highest placed team in Glasgow. We might have a huge possible catchment area, but that doesn't translate to attendances. Perhaps it's just this website and it's not representative of all fans at Firhill, but the atmosphere seems overwhelmingly hostile, negative and morose. What would a cup win or a top-six finish really do for our long-term future?

 

I could see some sort of drastic reconstruction maybe securing a stable future for Partick Thistle. A joint venture with Glasgow Warriors perhaps, where we sell the three-sided, now almost soulless (and soon to be smothered in a rabbit-warren of apartments) Firhill and move to a new place with an artificial pitch suitable for both rugby and football.

 

A new stadium in a different part of the city, designed for the best atmosphere possible - fully enclosed, safe standing, better and more varied facilities - might make the product more palatable. A sort of united sporting club with Glasgow promoted as part of it's identity might be attractive to more people, especially Old Firm fans tired of everything that has gone on with their teams. Making the matchday experience better value for money might encourage a new generation of families to attend.

 

Of course, there are deeply-ingrained problems with football in Scotland that go well beyond our own team that don't look like they're going to be fixed any time soon.

 

In all honesty I can see, if and when Rangers finally return to challenge Celtic, the clamours for their exit into the EPL will begin immediately and anew. And why not, with the result of the recent referendum debate? Scottish football will quickly resemble the Welsh leagues. Everyone outside the Old Firm will be reduced to part-time teams, and clubs such as ours will be a parochial pastime for a very small handful of dedicated followers.

 

Everyone will still keep moaning, though.

 

Re the bold text: rubbish. for one thing the old firm will continue to be stuck in Scottish football (worse luck) but even if they went teams like Aberdeen the two Dundees, Hearts and (yes really) Hibs have relatively big supports and we would have a top league where there might actually be real competition with not the same 1 (or 2) team/s winning each year. Teams like them and smaller than them would have a better chance of getting to cup finals with the OF out of the way. Folk up here have been so mesmerised by the OF and their poisonous dominance of our game that they too often forget we have several reasonable sized clubs up here who are not the OF.

 

Of course the SMSM would report nothing but the OF with tiny paras on the Scottish league but who reads them anyway?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Mr Bunny

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

We're hardly into our second season in the top flight and crowds already seem to have bottomed out at two-and-a-half thousand home fans. That's despite Thistle currently being the second-highest placed team in Glasgow. We might have a huge possible catchment area, but that doesn't translate to attendances. Perhaps it's just this website and it's not representative of all fans at Firhill, but the atmosphere seems overwhelmingly hostile, negative and morose. What would a cup win or a top-six finish really do for our long-term future?

 

I could see some sort of drastic reconstruction maybe securing a stable future for Partick Thistle. A joint venture with Glasgow Warriors perhaps, where we sell the three-sided, now almost soulless (and soon to be smothered in a rabbit-warren of apartments) Firhill and move to a new place with an artificial pitch suitable for both rugby and football.

 

A new stadium in a different part of the city, designed for the best atmosphere possible - fully enclosed, safe standing, better and more varied facilities - might make the product more palatable. A sort of united sporting club with Glasgow promoted as part of it's identity might be attractive to more people, especially Old Firm fans tired of everything that has gone on with their teams. Making the matchday experience better value for money might encourage a new generation of families to attend.

 

Of course, there are deeply-ingrained problems with football in Scotland that go well beyond our own team that don't look like they're going to be fixed any time soon.

 

In all honesty I can see, if and when Rangers finally return to challenge Celtic, the clamours for their exit into the EPL will begin immediately and anew. And why not, with the result of the recent referendum debate? Scottish football will quickly resemble the Welsh leagues. Everyone outside the Old Firm will be reduced to part-time teams, and clubs such as ours will be a parochial pastime for a very small handful of dedicated followers.

 

Everyone will still keep moaning, though.

 

Crowds have bottomed out due to pricing & affordability. Also the product on the park last season (2 home wins all season) not encouraging folk to part with their hard earned cash. The last time we were in the premier league, I was part of a group of 7 who regularly went to Firhill. That's now down to 4- affordability & product they watched are their main reasons for chucking it & becoming part time or even armchair supporters.

 

Interesting you mention this website. I tend to thnk that it's the same posters on here, who if they don't like what they read decide to hit the ignore button. There are posters in the for/against keeping the manager who just talk Gibberish butbthere are others, I'd like to think I'm one of them that present an argument why they think the manager should go. Very often the reply to these arguments is in the "la, la, la, not listening...." category. Or it's the fact he's a jags legend.

 

Can't believe that I read someone using the analogy of the pub & someone butting in on their conversation. Of the 4 of us (& the 2 gents that sit in front that we know from sitting these in the JHS) it's a 50/50 split as to sacking the manager. I also know from chats on the bus that those defending him last season, are now beginning to see what others are saying about contacts, scouting, tactics, subs & just a general inability, rather than reluctance, to change things when it's going wrong.

 

That's part of being a football fan. You're allowed to have an opinion- despite what some think on here.

 

The forum & its posters has probably dwindled in size since the .net days when the fans maybe had a common cause in the BoD or the management team.

 

Personally I can't believe folk can post the opening line like the above poster without realising they're countering their own argument to an extent that the manager is doing an ok job.

 

I genuinely believe that the core support are split equally on him staying/going with others in the undecided camp. If you're undecided as to whether or not the manager is doing a good job then surely that does mean you're not convinced?

 

With apologies for the independence referendum pun- "silent majority".

 

With apologies to the poster- I'm probably on his 'ignore' list anyway! - we should be a Premier league team with Premier league crowds. It's mismanagement since the early 80s imo that started to see the downfall of this club. I know clubs can yoyo up & down the leagues but when you see clubs like ICT & DU classed as bigger clubs than us you know we have failed to kick on where others saw the opportunity.

 

The youth structures & infrastructures, along with 'good' managers (on the whole) have seen these clubs overtake us in the last 40 years. We're putting a youth structure in place now but it's a bit after the horse has bolted. Hamilton showed how that was done & before that Livi & DU. The money's gone from the Scottish game & if an English team came calling for one of our youths, then they could do an Israel Feruz & walk away for nothing. Failing that, do what ATS did & leave at an age where the club sees nothing in terms of compensation (not a dig, just a fact).

 

We need the young boys in the team at 18 or 19 to get any real money for them but the double edged sword to that is when they've gone we could go into free fall again- look at Hamilton after McCarthy, McCartur, Easton went.

 

We have an aging support by all accounts, myself included, who saw the 71 League Cup win & European adventures. That saw us in the Premier League in the 70s & early 80s. Another spell in the doldrums would kill the club in all probability. The auld yins- most- would probably drag themselves along but the younger ones... Better things to do for many than travel to Forfar or Stranraer to watch us lose.

 

A cup win &/or top 6, in all probability, a long way off under current management/players. We can't keep a clean sheet way for home for what it is now in total half the games of our total league away games, so unless that changes quick...

 

But if a cup win or final were to happen... Look at the 30k supporters at cup finals for St Mirren, St Johnstone, Killie etc. Where are they now?

 

As for top 6... Think the poster has said himself in other threads that's not happening soon also. However if it were to happen then the money, if made available for the team, would no doubt be a help. But... Does the manager have the contacts to get players up here? & if so, what kind of money are they looking for?

 

For example, Ecclestone, I'm led to believe, is one of the highest earners at the club. For a guy whose scoring record as a striker & fitness (for now & for how long?) is questionable & only on a one year deal. I'm not sure that fills me with confidence that the current manager can spend money available wisely.

 

We overspent last January, that's part of the problem why the finances are the way they are. We offered contracts to guys like Forbes, Baird etc Summer 2013 then had to get rid as not good enough = £££. We then had to then replace them with better quality players = more £££.

 

If we'd gone down after that, I dread to think what would've happened. Christie Elliot as our starting CF for one I'd imagine.

 

As for the stadium move, as plenty have said, that would be probably be the final nail for many. Like I said, aging support. Unless someone can say, & convince, that a move would benefit everyone in terms of lower ticket prices & larger playing budget (sure I've heard that line before), then I honestly believe that a move would be the death knell for the club.

 

As a quick aside, the poster knows that the Warriors, in conjunction with the local authority, are delighted with Scotstoun & their training facilities at the Palace of Art? He knows that for his suggestion that we'd have to move to Scotstoun as the Warriors not moving anywhere?

 

Would he be happy with that?*

 

*If someone who can see this can ask him as like I said, I'm in the get rid of the manager camp so I'll be on his ignore button.

 

 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Crowds have bottomed out due to pricing & affordability. Also the product on the park last season (2 home wins all season) not encouraging folk to part with their hard earned cash. The last time we were in the premier league, I was part of a group of 7 who regularly went to Firhill. That's now down to 4- affordability & product they watched are their main reasons for chucking it & becoming part time or even armchair supporters.

 

I've just taken a couple of games at random

 

Two thirds of the way into a relegation season. Jags v Airdrie Feb 05 attendance 3791

Two thirds of the way into a promotion season. Jags v Airdrie Feb 13 attendance 3021 (includes "kids go free")

 

Even allowing for Airdrie fans free fall in support I think you can see from that we lost our support somewhere in between these dates. Not much to do with results and the product on the park at a particular time, otherwise 2013 would be far greater than 2005. More to do with the other reasons mentioned above.

 

I can't for a moment argue that nobody stays away due to our lack of success at home last season. I would tho' say that is totally marginal in comparison to the general long term decline in attendances.

[AndyMac]

You might not think much of my ideas, but Thistle needs more of a plan than simply, "if you believe it, we will grow."

 

You are right I don't like your ideas. Nor do I care for your selective quoting, Tricky Dicky Nixon.

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

I've just taken a couple of games at random

 

Two thirds of the way into a relegation season. Jags v Airdrie Feb 05 attendance 3791

Two thirds of the way into a promotion season. Jags v Airdrie Feb 13 attendance 3021 (includes "kids go free")

 

Even allowing for Airdrie fans free fall in support I think you can see from that we lost our support somewhere in between these dates. Not much to do with results and the product on the park at a particular time, otherwise 2013 would be far greater than 2005. More to do with the other reasons mentioned above.

 

I can't for a moment argue that nobody stays away due to our lack of success at home last season. I would tho' say that is totally marginal in comparison to the general long term decline in attendances.

 

 

Overall, 2004/05 our average home attendance was 3,455. In Championship season 12/13 it was 3,705.

 

Success bring bodies through the gate.

 

Not saying it's that alone but it helps.

 

2 home wins when it's a bit of a luxury item to many & money is tight...

 

When you have to prioritise, the thing that's not going so well is very often the first thing to go.

 

Once they're gone, it's not easy to get back.

 

Look, I'm going off at a tangent I know but I'm not saying we should be top 6, winning cups, in Europe every year etc.

 

I am saying it's like Groundhog Day under the current management. Cross ball comes into the box, we look disorganised & almost panic ensuing.

 

Already seen an increase on our STs this season for a product that was poor last season & though we've had a couple of home wins this season, overall when you add in away form it doesn't seem to be improving.

 

You pay more, you want more in return. That means seeing improvements.

 

I think we've gone back the way in terms of the football we're playing. The previous manager used to get dogs of abuse for being unable to keep clean sheets away from home. This manager...?

 

 

 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Does Checkers the Dug bite?

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

Does Checkers the Dug bite?

 

Don't understand your reference (age thing).

 

But, do you think Archibald gets the same 'abuse' at games or even on here that McNamara did?

 

Maybe it's selective memory but I don't think so.

 

Think most are of the opinion that if McNamara had stayed we may not have been promoted.

 

That's impossible to judge of course but I'd argue that McNamara, although still a young manager, is learning from mistakes he's made with us & DU.

 

Not sure the same is true of Archibald.