Firhillista Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) It seems to me that all of the current threads on the Forum at the moment are really focussing on the same issue - where does the club stand at the moment? Despite clear signs of progress - and no-one can deny our current place in the Premiership represents an improvement over our position in recent years - there's a sense of disappointment and disillusionment, reflected in low crowd turnout at games, and criticism of the management team and of individual players. I think we're disappointed now because of the contrast to where we've been in the recent past. Winning is exciting and winning while playing attractively is what all football fans want to see. That's what Thistle provided in winning the First Division/Championship and, to a much lesser extent, in retaining their Premiership place last season. That kind of excitement is no longer on offer, and it's all a bit deflating. Frustratingly, Thistle aren't that far away from being the team that we all want to watch. Everyone knows we need a couple of full-backs and a couple of creative players with some goals in them (and a fully fit squad of our current players) and we could reproduce the form that we enjoyed in our Championship-winning season. The reason we're not taking the obvious steps to achieve this has little to do with the management team, in my opinion, and a lot to do with that issue which has always limited the club's progress - a lack of money. In business terms, we're under-financed. We don't have the money to secure our best players on longer-term contracts, nor can we afford to go out there and sign the quality of players that will allow us to take the next step upwards. Unless there's a significant influx of cash to the club, progress will continue to be incremental - a few more points a season, a couple of league places higher, that sort of thing. And always the danger of circumstances throwing us into relegation and having to start the process all over again. I'm not for a minute suggesting that the current board throw silly money at the issue. I suspect they've already made exactly the financial commitment they're comfortable with. But for Thistle to really flourish, we need someone with significant financial clout to take things forward. Until then, it's going to be a long, hard slog. Edited January 19, 2015 by Firhillista 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 It seems to me that all of the current threads on the Forum at the moment are really focussing on the same issue - where does the club stand at the moment? Despite clear signs of progress - and no-one can deny our current place in the Premiership represents an improvement over our position in recent years - there's a sense of disappointment and disillusionment, reflected in low crowd turnout at games, and criticism of the management team and of individual players. I think we're disappointed now because of the contrast to where we've been in the recent past. Winning is exciting and winning while playing attractively is what all football fans want to see. That's what Thistle provided in winning the First Division/Championship and, to a much lesser extent, in retaining their Premiership place last season. That kind of excitement is no longer on offer, and it's all a bit deflating. Frustratingly, Thistle aren't that far away from being the team that we all want to watch. Everyone knows we need a couple of full-backs and a couple of creative players with some goals in them (and a fully fit squad of our current players) and we could reproduce the form that we enjoyed in our Championship-winning season. The reason we're not taking the obvious steps to achieve this has little to do with the management team, in my opinion, and a lot to do with that issue which has always limited the club's progress - a lack of money. In business terms, we're under-financed. We don't have the money to secure our best players on longer-term contracts, nor can we afford to go out there and sign the quality of players that will allow us to take the next step upwards. Unless there's a significant influx of cash to the club, progress will continue to be incremental - a few more points a season, a couple of league places higher, that sort of thing. And always the danger of circumstances throwing us into relegation and having to start the process all over again. I'm not for a minute suggesting that the current board throw silly money at the issue. I suspect they've already made exactly the financial commitment they're comfortable with. But for Thistle to really flourish, we need someone with significant financial clout to take things forward. Until then, it's going to be a long, hard slog. Pretty much spot on... But the long hard slog is down to how individual fans react. People can either get their head in a tiz, demand the manager gets sacked, slate the team at every opportunity. Or... Realise that, at this point in time, this season, this is where we are. Next season or the season after that we might be a championship team, will I wet my knickers about it? No, because come the opening game you support the team regardless of what division they are in. Our championship winning season proves you don't need to be in the premiership, paying high wages to have great Thistle players and to see great football at firhill. The divisions aren't big enough to make long term plans, to make financial plans that are for our long term benefit, to create a budget that sees us progress. As long as the league is the size it is, we will always be looking over our shoulder, fearfull that back to back defeats, or a few games without a win sees you drop from mid table safety to a relegation battle. That's life as a thistle fan, you either accept it and support the team, or find something else to do... Right now a lot of folk are finding something else to do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Good post Firhillista. The frustrating thing for me, is that we are, in my view, underachieving slightly. We could and should have taken at least a point from the St Johnstone game and we've had 3 or 4 or even more games like that this season. Top 6 should be well within our grasp. Edited January 19, 2015 by crazy davie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, the top division comprised eighteen teams - yes, that's right, eighteen! Clubs could happily mosey along every season, bringing on young players, hoping some might make it into the national team, planning for the occasional cup run, the odd win against the Big Two, only getting really wound up about dropping out of the division if the team was really crap. Fans went along to watch their team, irrrespective of whether they were likely to win, lose or draw, not particulalry concerned about the outcome because, most of the time, it was only a game after all. At a place called Firhill, fans of the Maryhill Magyars were known to meet defeat with a shrug of the shoulders and, "Ach, that's Thistle, what are they like?" Then, in the name of competition, it all changed. Defeats meant possible relegation; relegation meant possible bankrupcy; fear stalked the land. And it still does. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think retaining our place in the top flight for the next few years is vitally important to our medium-term ambitions. Relegation could see an end to the promising start made by our youth system, or at the very least, a drastic cutback there. I'm enjoying the fact that we're starting to see young players come through, so it would be nice to be able to keep this going. I'm as frustrated as the next guy about some of the results and performances this season, but I think that's mostly down to us being so close to getting it together and just not quite pushing on like we maybe should. If we were totally rotten, it would be easier to accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westend Jag Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think retaining our place in the top flight for the next few years is vitally important to our medium-term ambitions. Relegation could see an end to the promising start made by our youth system, or at the very least, a drastic cutback there. I'm enjoying the fact that we're starting to see young players come through, so it would be nice to be able to keep this going. I'm as frustrated as the next guy about some of the results and performances this season, but I think that's mostly down to us being so close to getting it together and just not quite pushing on like we maybe should. If we were totally rotten, it would be easier to accept. Pretty much agree with this, we have good players and are close to being a top 6 team - we need to add consistency and the ability to grind results out more often...if we were truly gash I'd be more worried...Despite league positions (and add in a couple of fullbacks and another striker) there aren't many SPFL squads I'd swap ours with...also like the youngsters coming through dimension, hopefully lots to come on that front over the next 5-10 yrs as the weir programme establishes a return and hopefully is built upon.... If ever I get frustrated with Thistle, which frankly is often (but that's part of the charm my old man said when he dragged me along in the 1st place) is to get perspective by looking back over the last decade...we are so far ahead of where we have been at times and for loads of reasons this current journey seems more sustainable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avesco.htm This says it all really. Now I know when games are against c*ltic will affect this but we have really fallen away this season in terms of attendances.....second season syndrome maybe? Its a shame as I think we have some of the best young players the club has seen for many a year. When you look at these figures you have to hope that the board have budgeted effectively or we have a far bigger problem looming than our record in Perth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avesco.htm This says it all really. Now I know when games are against c*ltic will affect this but we have really fallen away this season in terms of attendances.....second season syndrome maybe? Its a shame as I think we have some of the best young players the club has seen for many a year. When you look at these figures you have to hope that the board have budgeted effectively or we have a far bigger problem looming than our record in Perth! That is concerning. Just an aside, why are ourselves and Hibs the only teams with our date of births quoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avesco.htm This says it all really. Now I know when games are against c*ltic will affect this but we have really fallen away this season in terms of attendances.....second season syndrome maybe? Its a shame as I think we have some of the best young players the club has seen for many a year. When you look at these figures you have to hope that the board have budgeted effectively or we have a far bigger problem looming than our record in Perth! No real surprise as last season's first 9 games included big Friday night crowds against DU & Hearts, plus a Celtic game, all with big away supports. I'm sure the board budgeted for a drop when the fixtures came out, hopefully they had a decent estimate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 two very good, reasoned and balanced posts from firhillsta. same with west end jag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 No real surprise as last season's first 9 games included big Friday night crowds against DU & Hearts, plus a Celtic game, all with big away supports. I'm sure the board budgeted for a drop when the fixtures came out, hopefully they had a decent estimate Of course it's easy to blame the fixtures and the fact that hearts and Hibs have been replaced by less well supported teams. However our fall in attendances is a far greater percentage than any other team in the league so I think there is more to it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Of course it's easy to blame the fixtures and the fact that hearts and Hibs have been replaced by less well supported teams. However our fall in attendances is a far greater percentage than any other team in the league so I think there is more to it than that. i don't think anyone who has attended firhill this season will dispute our home support numbers are a good ten to twenty percent down on last season. conversely, i don't think the numbers we have taken to away games this season is any less overall, than how we travelled last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Of course it's easy to blame the fixtures and the fact that hearts and Hibs have been replaced by less well supported teams. However our fall in attendances is a far greater percentage than any other team in the league so I think there is more to it than that. It's the truth though. I don't have the figures to compare, but I'm sure Lenziejag will have them. A truer figure would be to compare our home supports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Our average is 3386 over 9 home games add the Celtic on and it will be an average of around 3947. Our average last year (based on their figures) is 5001, so including the Celtic game we would be 21% down....... but remember we played Celtic at home twice last year, plus were riding high from promotion at the start of the season, and had big away supports from DUFC and Hearts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 We played Kilmarnock at home in January last season, a time of year people don't have much money and when the warm afterglow of promotion was probably beginning to wear off. The crowd was over 4000. When we played them in early December, there was less than 3100....over 1000 less. So I think its clear that, whilst I don't disagree with the various points/excuses made, on the best like for like comparison I can make, looks like we have haemorrhaged fans to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think we're in a pretty good place. Unfortunately that good place breeds a bit of complacency and the excitement and urgency of the last couple of seasons isn't quite there. Ironically this is probably where the smaller league set-up works. If we were to get dragged down into a relegation fight, or even get relegated and then find ourselves back in a promotion battle the next season, we might actually see crowds return. A run of form and a genuine challenge for top six might do the same, but we're currently in a bit of limbo. I can only imagine that sitting around ninth or tenth every season in an eighteen team league would mean dwindling interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 This season from 10 home games we have had 34000 through the gate. At this point, last season, we had had 9 home games with 50,000 through the gate. Like for like a la Jaf,last season we had 48,000. So at best we are 14,000 less than last season. However,our 1/2 of the cup attendances have helped offset some of the league deficit. 10,000 in total had watched the 4 league cup and Scottish Cup matches. This season it is more than double. So by my reckoning we are about 8,000 behind - in money terms that's probably about 160K. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Pretty much spot on... But the long hard slog is down to how individual fans react. People can either get their head in a tiz, demand the manager gets sacked, slate the team at every opportunity. Or... Realise that, at this point in time, this season, this is where we are. Next season or the season after that we might be a championship team, will I wet my knickers about it? No, because come the opening game you support the team regardless of what division they are in. Our championship winning season proves you don't need to be in the premiership, paying high wages to have great Thistle players and to see great football at firhill. The divisions aren't big enough to make long term plans, to make financial plans that are for our long term benefit, to create a budget that sees us progress. As long as the league is the size it is, we will always be looking over our shoulder, fearfull that back to back defeats, or a few games without a win sees you drop from mid table safety to a relegation battle. That's life as a thistle fan, you either accept it and support the team, or find something else to do... Right now a lot of folk are finding something else to do. Spot on, pt. As long as Doomcaster and Co. still believe that all Scottish football needs, in order to flourish, is (at least) 4 Celtic v Sevco games then I'm afraid that sensible restructuring won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graemei Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Pretty much agree with this, we have good players and are close to being a top 6 team - we need to add consistency and the ability to grind results out more often...if we were truly gash I'd be more worried...Despite league positions (and add in a couple of fullbacks and another striker) there aren't many SPFL squads I'd swap ours with...also like the youngsters coming through dimension, hopefully lots to come on that front over the next 5-10 yrs as the weir programme establishes a return and hopefully is built upon.... If ever I get frustrated with Thistle, which frankly is often (but that's part of the charm my old man said when he dragged me along in the 1st place) is to get perspective by looking back over the last decade...we are so far ahead of where we have been at times and for loads of reasons this current journey seems more sustainable... Pretty much similar thoughts to me. I tell my wife, even though she does not care very much and probably doesn't listen, but I need someone to talk football with when I get home on a Saturday, that even though we look like a team that is struggling at times for results, when we click, great things happen... Like the 4-0 away at ICT, the 3-1 at home to Aberdeen and 4-2 away to Hearts are the most memorable ones right now. I think there is a lot more to come from this team this season and as for youth development it's only just begun. Like your old man, my older brother said similar things to me, that back in the day when we lost they still had a laugh in the shed, but when we won it was fcking great! Edited January 19, 2015 by Graemei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think we're in a pretty good place. Unfortunately that good place breeds a bit of complacency and the excitement and urgency of the last couple of seasons isn't quite there. Ironically this is probably where the smaller league set-up works. If we were to get dragged down into a relegation fight, or even get relegated and then find ourselves back in a promotion battle the next season, we might actually see crowds return. A run of form and a genuine challenge for top six might do the same, but we're currently in a bit of limbo. I can only imagine that sitting around ninth or tenth every season in an eighteen team league would mean dwindling interest. Have to disagree with you on this one Allyo, think it would be far more interesting to have different teams to play, if you change your mind, I would like to nominate you to start a campaign to get it sorted out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974%E2%80%9375_in_Scottish_football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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