yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 like trying to turn an oil tanker with dingys powered by broken paddles while up a narrow creek, pleasing to see it is, that the seemingly unaccountable and put downers of our game, have started to listen to the vast majority of scottish football fans i have come across in the recent years. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35031970 observations and thoughts ..... so preseason friendlies either become a memory of the past, or they'll start mid to late june. everyone bar four european qualifiers (thirty eight clubs) plus highland and lowland champions is a reasonable proposal for group stages ..... though instead of eight groups of five, where league winners and four best runners up join the euro four in sixteen team knockout, i'd have tweaked it to either the eight winners plus one off playoffs between runners ups (at neutral venues), or my preferred, seven groups of six (thirty eight plus winners and runners up of both lowland and highland), where seven league winners, best three second placed teams, then winners of one off (at neutral venue) playoffs between other four second placed teams, join the euro four in last sixteen ..... reasons for this means a (minimum) extra game for all teams before elimination (or progression) so more revenue for every club, as well as another competitive game before league season starts. whether in the eight leagues of five, or seven leagues of six, i would also like to see gate revenue split fifty fifty after costs ..... and equally the make up of each mini league to feature at least one team from each of the four leagues, and no more than two from the same league ..... in my model of seven leagues of six, the lowland and highland foursome would be added to the fourth tier pot, which would mean two from fourth tier in every mini league, and then one of each from other three tiers, plus one more from any of them ..... this would mean every "wee" club from lower tiers are guaranteed games against bigger opposition (nostalgia of david versus goliath, but not knocked out on back of one (or even two) defeats, with chance to progress to last sixteen more dependent on games versus clubs (for most) nearer their traditional level ..... this method would also minimise the chances of playing many teams in same league and alleviate the "oh no not another game against same old league teams" common complaint. i'd also suggest making the mini leagues regionalised (north and south), to cut down on long distance games (costs to fans and clubs) and potentially create the chance of some local derbies in each mini league, would add further old school spice to the format. the bonus point system ..... yoda likes ..... only tweak would be extra time before penalties lottery (gives the supporters more value for their admission money) ..... makes me wonder, why can't we introduce that into our league system (would help encourage supporters to stay right to end of games, and make season (and patg) tickets (for league) more appealing surely shirley? as for the league winter break of two weeks ..... this being scotland, it's an impossible situation to choose in advance when the two week break should fall, such is the length of bad weather december through to february (and more) and unpredictable severity of it in that large window, so good luck with choosing the optimum two week period. overall ..... least it proves bumkins like dungcaster and regawngettophuk are finally, slowly and possibly begrudgingly, beginning to listen to the supporters, oops customers, of scottish football, oops mean the product these bams have rundown and undersold consistently ..... so, it's a start, hmmmm?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, however two from fourth tier in every mini league, and then one of each from other three tiers, plus one more from any of them ...... this method would also minimise the chances of playing many teams in same league and alleviate the "oh no not another game against same old league teams" common complaint. Except for teams in the bottom pot who are now guaranteed one "oh no not another game against same old league teams" i'd also suggest making the mini leagues regionalised (north and south), to cut down on long distance games (costs to fans and clubs) and potentially create the chance of some local derbies in each mini league, would add further old school spice to the format. Except that this will again increase the chance of "oh no not another game against same old league teams". In the bottom pot we now have just the same 4 teams every year (+ highland/lowland) that you are guaranteed to meet. Have to agree that the judgement of Solomon would be needed to decide on the 2 weeks to choose. I would put them at the end of the winter months and use it as a "rescheduled match fortnight" to catch up on postponed games and not cause fixture congestion later in the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it all looks very interesting and the unusual format for draws will attract some attention at the start of the season which will only be positive. My only concern is that with five team groups, for half of the second placed clubs to get nothing is harsh. I'd give them a playoff against the clubs who were given a bye for being in Europe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it all looks very interesting and the unusual format for draws will attract some attention at the start of the season which will only be positive. My only concern is that with five team groups, for half of the second placed clubs to get nothing is harsh. I'd give them a playoff against the clubs who were given a bye for being in Europe. But they are guaranteed 4 League Cup games when before they could be out after the first game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) I think this is progress of some sort. But for me, an expanded league cup should have been brought about to make up for a lesser number of league games in a 16 team league system. This for me has to happen. I would actually love it if Sevco somehow made an arse of promotion yet again because it would probably bring about this immediately. It would be happening for the wrong reasons but the end would justify the means as far as I am concerned. Edited December 8, 2015 by ian_mac 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Think this is good, as far as it goes (agree with ian_mac about reconstruction). Like the inclusion of Lowland and Highland League champs. Don't get the bonus point thing though. As I understand it, it doesn't affect the result of the game. The match is drawn, then there is a separate competition for a bonus point. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Am i correct in assuming the 8 (non-European preliminary round entrants) Premier Division teams will be seeded into the 8 sections - not sure if this is outlined in the press releases. As regards the 5 team sections is there a slight chance that a manufactured (see W. Germany/Austria/Algeria 1982 World Cup) result could occur in the final games if 2 sides are playing one another and a point (or a point and a bonus point) is needed for both of them to eliminate a third team. Whilst the chances of this are perhaps remote it does increase the opportunity for some teams to know in advance the result they both need prior to a game whilst another team has to sit back and is helpless to do anything about it. I presume there will also be some sort of regionalisation at the section stage with presumably north/east sections as well as south/west sections - albeit the draw should not be slavishly geographic. It's probably worth trying although the summer holiday impact might not help attendances particularly if there are some dead matches at the end of the section stages - but I imagine anything is better than actionless, meaningless and worthless pre-season "challenge" matches - unless, of course, it was part of a "Highland Tour"!! Not convinced about the "winter-break" and its timing but again it is worth re-introducing if it gives players (and even pitches) time to recover after fairly constant use from mid July. Edited December 8, 2015 by JeanieD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, however Except for teams in the bottom pot who are now guaranteed one "oh no not another game against same old league teams" Except that this will again increase the chance of "oh no not another game against same old league teams". In the bottom pot we now have just the same 4 teams every year (+ highland/lowland) that you are guaranteed to meet. Have to agree that the judgement of Solomon would be needed to decide on the 2 weeks to choose. I would put them at the end of the winter months and use it as a "rescheduled match fortnight" to catch up on postponed games and not cause fixture congestion later in the year. on your first point ..... unless it's mini leagues of four, with one club per league, then it's impossible not to play another team in same mini league no matter what league any club is in. also (if they followed my tweak suggestions) by limiting it to maximum of two clubs from any one league in a mini league, that would remove possibility of three (or four, or five, or (on my preferred number of 6 team mini leagues) even six clubs from same league ..... by limiting it to two maximum, that gives greatest chance of varied opponents for all clubs. on your second point ..... don't get where you get "same 4 teams" outcome? on current proposal, ten team bottom league plus lowland and highland equals twelve, so my suggestion of fifty fifty north south split would mean six teams ..... while my preferred seven group format of six, would mean ten plus four from bottom pot, so seven teams after north south split. also, to further expand on my north south split, it would be a straight fifty fifty split per league ..... based on who is starting in that league every season ..... so with promotion and relegation, there could be geographical shifts in each league each season depending on the makeup of them ..... again varying the possibility of teams in each north south pot. also, with my suggestion of seven leagues of six, it means chances if getting a team in your own league is only twenty per cent ..... that's pretty favourable, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it all looks very interesting and the unusual format for draws will attract some attention at the start of the season which will only be positive. My only concern is that with five team groups, for half of the second placed clubs to get nothing is harsh. I'd give them a playoff against the clubs who were given a bye for being in Europe. possibly like that suggestion i do ..... why should euro four be guaranteed a straight bye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'd be willing to give it a goo, but given that I remember (not all too fondly the old sectional League-cups set up) I'm a wee bot skeptical. However, it appears that the dinosaurs roamed who actually run our game have finally realized that all is not well in the state of Hampden! So it might be the start of the beginning? Personally for me 'summer' football is a complete no brainer, in Scotland- I mean who,wants to stand sit watching a game in November/January ay Gayfield, which I'm sure many of us have done (personally I feel frozen even thinking of it!). I know all the arguments about how you never know when it's winter etc. but sorely the SFA can fund a wee bit of research to establish on balance where any break could be and its not as if the punters would expect cast iron guarantee's, I'd be happy to leave that to Chick Dung and co.. The other obvious problem is the grass growing season, here I imagine further investigative work would need doing and possibly a look a some sort of hybrid playing surfaces. I'd be amazed if there wasn't loads of work out there conducted by the US football people: as of the many things you could a use them of been dinosaurs isn't one. Frankly, this will only be the first of many changes needed to ensure our game survives- previously the sum total of the SPFL's aspirations appeared to be hoping that Sevco got back in the top league thereby solving all our problems at a stroke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 ..... why should euro four be guaranteed a straight bye? Reward for being top four clubs the previous season. Hopefully like others this is opening the way to larger leagues with fewer fixtures. Just playing more games isn't the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Think this is good, as far as it goes (agree with ian_mac about reconstruction). Like the inclusion of Lowland and Highland League champs. Don't get the bonus point thing though. As I understand it, it doesn't affect the result of the game. The match is drawn, then there is a separate competition for a bonus point. Why? i like the concept of it, but believe the extra point by means of a penalty shootout is a ill thought out lazy easy option ..... which is why i suggested thirty minutes extra time in event of draw, means teams have thirty minutes to win bonus point properly, and would be much more entertaining that straight to penalties in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Reward for being top four clubs the previous season. Hopefully like others this is opening the way to larger leagues with fewer fixtures. Just playing more games isn't the answer. being mischievous m'lady i was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Was listening to Sportsound last night and although I am in favour of summer football there were some very practical points raised on the programme. Firstly, there's no way we could avoid the whole winter, at the moment there are less than 2 months between the end of one season and the start of the other. March to November, as in Scandinavia, would result in clubs going without income for 5 months. A shorter season would mean less games, again loss of revenue for clubs. Many clubs would be looking at dropping down to part time or even going bust. So we are looking at picking 2 months during the winter for post/pre season. What 2 months do you choose? November/December? January/February? December/January? If the season was ending round about now we would still be looking at postponements, only it would be the most important games of the season that would be affected. Scottish Cup finals, playoffs, relegation deciders. We would need to make massive sacrifices for summer football, whatever way you look at it. My preference would be a 16 team league with a longer mid-season break in the winter. The loss in revenue from less league games being made up by the new expanded league cup and possibly even a few 2 legged rounds of the Scottish Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'd be willing to give it a goo Might well be the solution but you could end up in solvent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it is important to innovate with any consumer product (which lets face it football is). There is a traditional element of football and of British football that cannot be tinkered with, however the league cup is ripe for innovative ideas and I believe there should be a revamp every half dozen years or so. Just look at some of the mental things that have come along in snooker recently. The shoot out idea is pretty good for me. Typically in a league format both teams would go home with a point, but now there is something slightly more to play for and some more interesting permutations. It may be a little Americanised, but so what? We have our traditional league and Scottish cup. As for my suggestion of the second placed teams getting another chance. It's not about making up for games or anything, just that if a third or second division team had a good run but lost out, the least they would deserve is that playoff. Also, one playoff match instead of four group stage matches still gives a benefit to the team qualified for Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simoncordiner Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 This sounds interesting, but I worry when our esteemed leaders say stupid things like: "...the ground-breaking bonus point system should add incentive to teams...." said Doncaster. The bonus point system offers no incentive. You either win or lose a penalty shoot out, there is no added incentive in a bonus point. It's not like teams can hold on for the draw. This statement is incredibly stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) This sounds interesting, but I worry when our esteemed leaders say stupid things like: "...the ground-breaking bonus point system should add incentive to teams...." said Doncaster. The bonus point system offers no incentive. You either win or lose a penalty shoot out, there is no added incentive in a bonus point. It's not like teams can hold on for the draw. This statement is incredibly stupid. ^^^^^ correct which is why i suggested extra time. win a game in ninety ..... three points win a game in onetwenty ..... two points then go to a penalty shootout ..... enter a lottery and possibly only get only one point. seems fairer than dungcasters lazy solution Edited December 8, 2015 by yoda-jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 This sounds interesting, but I worry when our esteemed leaders say stupid things like: "...the ground-breaking bonus point system should add incentive to teams...." said Doncaster. The bonus point system offers no incentive. You either win or lose a penalty shoot out, there is no added incentive in a bonus point. It's not like teams can hold on for the draw. This statement is incredibly stupid. In fairness it is "ground-breaking" in relation to anything else Dungcaster has ever come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 This sounds interesting, but I worry when our esteemed leaders say stupid things like: "...the ground-breaking bonus point system should add incentive to teams...." said Doncaster. The bonus point system offers no incentive. You either win or lose a penalty shoot out, there is no added incentive in a bonus point. It's not like teams can hold on for the draw. This statement is incredibly stupid. Doncaster comes across as an incredibly stupid man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Team A wins one game and draws three = 6 points Team B loses one game and draws three = 6 points Ground breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 The way I read it, if a game ends in a draw both teams get at least 1 point, with the winners of the penalty shootout getting an extra point. Is that not the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 That's my understanding too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Positives Meaningful action in July, better than pre-season friendlies. Decent sponsorship with BT, great news for Scottish football. No seeding in the last 16 - a most welcome breakthrough, and a victory for sport. Hallelujah. A Highland and Lowland non-League entry is a small positive - gives the tourney an extra story angle. Negatives Seeded group stages. Boring for big teams. Terrible news for wee teams. Byes for the Euro 4. Surely the League Cup would be better July prep for them than friendlies? We are sh*t scared to square up to Celtic who, quite rightly, would rather spend pre-season raking in a shed load of cash playing global-scale friendlies. Besides, they've got enough resources to at least field an XI. Get them tellt. No byes. Play the Scottish game or feck off. Will be part-regionalised (whatever that means). FFS! The thought of pulling from the same small pot year in, year out is mind-numbing. A trip to Elgin is what it's all about. Especially on a nice day in July. Scoring more away goals trumps goal difference when points are level. Wow, utterly bizarre. This is laughing stock territory. The luck of the draw could see you play the 2 worst teams away. A point for a penalty shoot out? A three points or nothing shoot-out would make sense to incentivise the 90 minutes. This free point for the penalty shoot out lottery is doing nothing but trivialising the game. Might as well make it a point for tossing a coin. Those last two negatives especially seem to me like big weans playing with toys. Only this is Scottish fitba' - and it's no' too funny. If it wasn't for the sponsorship deal I'd be calling for heads to roll... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediocre Pundit Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) I quite like the bonus point idea. However I also agree with the point that penalties (which are a bit of a lottery) isn't the best way to do it and guarantees someone getting the bonus point. Instead it could have been 30 minutes 'golden goal' extra time - if noone scores then it remains 1 point each, however if a team scores they get the bonus point. It may encourage a more attacking 30 minutes...but then the golden goal was meant to do that and I can barely recall a game that wasn't shit because of it. Anyway, i generally like it. Would prefer all second placed teams to go into a playoff for the final four spots - think its a bit tidier - but not too fussed. Also, will all games be split gates? That would be good. If not then they should be on the season ticket (which may be increased in price a bit to cover) Edit: if split gates then a price cap of £10 would be good too, see if we can get some good crowds in and reward fans a bit. Edited December 8, 2015 by Mediocre Pundit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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