Training Ground

[javeajag]

11 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

This is a great and worrying point.

To be clear, it is great Colin Weir has decided to invest/take an active interest in the club he supports. In addition he has given to so many causes, a modern day andrew carneigie? irrespective  in how he made his cash, I'm very grateful as a fan.

Has his investment made any great difference? Hard to tell, it's not held us back that's for sure.

Main point for me is that we as a club should NOT under any circumstances base any of our finances on what comes from Colin Weir. If something happens to him (we are all going to die some day) that involvement could be pulled by whoever takes receipt of his estate. Whoever inherits his estate might not give two  tuppence for thistle and walk away. Even if he includes some legal caveat. That could be challenged by the estate recipient. The club need to be careful. Remember gretna, dundee utd. Daddy thomson would have given his last penny to them but the son had other ideas. Just worth keeping this in mind. Though current board performance suggests they will progress / stumble blindly in good faith....

Have you any evidence that the weirs have any involvement in providing day to day finance for the club ? 

[Guest]

Just now, jlsarmy said:

Yeah great and we’re now on course for back to back relegations !!

Jls, i thought better of you. 

Needless to say only an idiot would link the Weir inveatment with relegation. Or are you saying otherwise. I've no idea how anyone can link their involvement with any failure by archiebald, caldwell, the board etal

 

[Guest]

Just now, javeajag said:

well if the weirs hadn't cleared our 600k debt we would be financially better off....discuss

propco own the bing and have for how many years? if i was an investor in propoco it would rank as the worst deal i ever did but the club got £1m that you wouldn't want either ?

the weirs are in my view doing the right thing by not giving money just to fund players and given how much archie burned that has been a good move...they are helping the club infrastructure at a low cost to us

but by not having £1.6m, an academy and training centre we would be better off?

football fans cynical conspiracy theorists or what 

I ran out of likes....AGAIN!!!!

 

None ao blind as those who will not see, you make complete sense

[jlsarmy]

2 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

Jls, i thought better of you. 

Needless to say only an idiot would link the Weir inveatment with relegation. Or are you saying otherwise. I've no idea how anyone can link their involvement with any failure by archiebald, caldwell, the board etal

 

Wasn’t linking any investment which we as a Club should be grateful, the point I was trying to put across was not everything is as it seems , and contingency plans for the future should be about a sustainable business model and any benefactor’s money should be the icing on the cake . 

[Guest]

Just now, javeajag said:

Have you any evidence that the weirs have any involvement in providing day to day finance for the club ? 

You are misinterpreting.

 

I agree what they are doing with infastructure is smart and sustainable long term and will be appreciated way into the future by the fans young and old.......or are you in a grump today and just want to argue with everyone even those who agree with you

Edited December 27, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

Just now, jlsarmy said:

Wasn’t linking any investment which we as a Club should be grateful, the point I was trying to put across was not everything is as it seems , and contingency plans for the future should be about a sustainable business model and any benefactor’s money should be the icing on the cake . 

No arguement here on that point.

[sandy]

Whatever the Weirs have graciously gifted the Club, we should always consider it an unplanned bonus.

The Club needs to wash its face with day-to-day financial planning else we risk jeopardising long-term sustainability.

[javeajag]

19 minutes ago, sandy said:

Whatever the Weirs have graciously gifted the Club, we should always consider it an unplanned bonus.

The Club needs to wash its face with day-to-day financial planning else we risk jeopardising long-term sustainability.

Agreed

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, Thistleberight said:

You are misinterpreting.

 

I agree what they are doing with infastructure is smart and sustainable long term and will be appreciated way into the future by the fans young and old.......or are you in a grump today and just want to argue with everyone even those who agree with you

Then we agree ! 

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

You’re right as to what the benefits are ,the quodos of saying we’ve got an “ Academy “ ?

The Academy was set up in 2013 and the only meaningful results have been so far , Liam Lindsey who we sold for £250k  and James Penrice becoming a first team regular only this season 

There have been other players who have skirted about the first team McCarthy and Fitzpatrick but couldn’t been deemed as regulars in the first team.  

So over the last 5 years I believe there has been only glimpses what an Academy could produce, if it wasn’t for the Weirs investment of 500k a year for the last 5 years it would be unsustainable to invest in a project where there is little return.

The only conclusions you can make re the Academy is they’re only paying lip service to it or we’re actually not very good at it .

Not sure it’s a given that the Training Centre that the Weirs are muted to be building will be exclusively for PTFC , it sounds and looks to me it will be a commercial investment for the Weirs as well to try and get some return for the money they are investing.

Whether we can afford it if there is another relegation is debatable.

Liam Lindsay came via Scott Mckenzie and the under 20s / he wasnt via the Youth Academy structure 

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, KemoAvdiu said:

Genuine question - as I think there’s a lot of validity to what you have to say. Should we have said no to the Weir money? 

Its a fair question - I think we should have had a more robust strategy for its use as the benefits to the Club have been very limited apart from clearing the debt

As it was “ free money” the expectations as to getting a return eg Youth Academy  seems to have been limited 

We have simply repeated the same thing as every other Scottish Club fishing from the same pool of Coaches which is reflected in the state of Scottish Football in general 

if they wanted to be serious they shoukd have looked to Spain possibly to use similiar structure - head coaches etc and been radical -the funding has been significant - but the vision thing has just been a repeat of whats already being done elsewhere 

As for the shares to the Fans again great in principle - but the Clun appiont the trustees so how much say do the fans have in there use 

We got promoted and were sustainable in the Premier before the Weir money - so are we better off as a result of it - my view is no - even the debt was manageable and other clubs had it written off by the banks 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Hi Jim - I hope you’re keeping well?

If I understand your concern correctly, it’s that the Club signs up to a long term lease at a rent which it can afford at the moment, but which, due to a change in circumstances, later becomes a millstone around it’s neck. You seem to accept that the Weirs are unlikely themselves to use this to drag the Club down, but Colin Weir’s health is poor, and it’s impossible to tell what the future holds.

If that is an accurate summary, then it’s a pretty easy fix: grant the training ground lease to a newly created subsidiary company which has no other assets and which is wholly owned by the Club. If things go well, fine. If they don’t and the subsidiary company can no longer keep up with the rent payments, then it goes into default, the lease (and the training ground) is taken away from it, but the Club itself isn’t the defaulting tenant and is insulated from the risk. Worst case, the Club loses its ability to use the training ground, which is exactly where it started from, so it’s no worse off. It’s not a difficult fix, provided the landlord is willing to accept a tenant with no financial covenant on Day 1 (and you seem to accept that we have a supportive prospective landlord at the moment).

To my mind, you raise a valid point, but it’s a point that should be easily addressed, provided the landlord is co-operative and the tenant is being properly advised.

Anyway Jim - best wishes to you and yours for the year ahead.

David

David -as always a constructive and sensible solution which the Club should seriously consider as it removes risk from both parties - frankly it worries me that this isnt the proposed set up as it makes complete common sense - as we both know from experience - cash flow will take you under / you therefore cannot commmit long term as you cant predict future income 

[jlsarmy]

15 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Liam Lindsay came via Scott Mckenzie and the under 20s / he wasnt via the Youth Academy structure 

Not that it makes any difference whatsoever, Liam signed on as a youth in 2011 , better or worse ? not sure if you know if the training Academy that is getting built will ever be an asset to PTFC  after we’ve paid the lease for a number of years or will it always belong to the Weirs ?

[KemoAvdiu]

11 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Its a fair question - I think we should have had a more robust strategy for its use as the benefits to the Club have been very limited apart from clearing the debt

As it was “ free money” the expectations as to getting a return eg Youth Academy  seems to have been limited 

We have simply repeated the same thing as every other Scottish Club fishing from the same pool of Coaches which is reflected in the state of Scottish Football in general 

if they wanted to be serious they shoukd have looked to Spain possibly to use similiar structure - head coaches etc and been radical -the funding has been significant - but the vision thing has just been a repeat of whats already being done elsewhere 

As for the shares to the Fans again great in principle - but the Clun appiont the trustees so how much say do the fans have in there use 

We got promoted and were sustainable in the Premier before the Weir money - so are we better off as a result of it - my view is no - even the debt was manageable and other clubs had it written off by the banks 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay now you’re losing me. Being debt free isn’t significantly better than having a lot of debt? To say we are not better off being debt free is...weird. 

How else are we to recruit coaches? Are you aware of special untapped pools of coaches that we should be looking at? 

What Spanish model/structure are you talking about? Having a head coach and a sporting director? If so how would that be a use of the millions the Weirs have invested? 

I agree regarding the fans trust. I think that’s a bizarre set up and totally toothless, but not sure how that relates to the way in which the Weir money has been spent...? 

Theres a lot of criticism to be made of the club leadership, but I don’t think that accepting millions of investment and seeking to build a youth academy and training ground is something that can be credibly criticised. 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by KemoAvdiu

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, javeajag said:

What have the weirs ever done for us ....

funded the best youth system we have ever had

cleared our debt 

got us out of the clutches of bank of Scotland 

made a fans group the largest single shareholder in the club

built us a training facility 

******** 

And we are bottom of the league with Crowds under 2000 - a good thing is of no use whatsoever unless its also the right thing 

No one is questioning that Colin Weir thinks he is doing well by his Club - question is - what is being achieved as a result 

 

[javeajag]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And we are bottom of the league with Crowds under 2000 - a good thing is of no use whatsoever unless its also the right thing 

No one is questioning that Colin Weir thinks he is doing well by his Club - question is - what is being achieved as a result 

 

I think we can agree the weirs are not involved in player recruitment or tactics or prob appointing the manager 

to me he has given us a solid financial footing and is developing our off the field infrastructure 

that is all good 

[Guest]

Just now, javeajag said:

Then we agree ! 

Indeed we do

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 minutes ago, KemoAvdiu said:

Okay now you’re losing me. Being debt free isn’t significantly better than having a lot of debt? To say we are not better off being debt free is...weird. 

How else are we to recruit coaches? Are you aware of special untapped pools of coaches that we should be looking at? 

What Spanish model/structure are you talking about? Having a head coach and a sporting director? If so how would that be a use of the millions the Weirs have invested? 

I agree regarding the fans trust. I think that’s a bizarre set up and totally toothless, but not sure how that relates to the way in which the Weir money has been spent...? 

Theres a lot of criticism to be made of the club leadership, but I don’t think that the principle of accepting millions of investment and seeking to build a youth academy and training ground is one of them. 

 

The interest was manageable - the banks wrote of the debts of most Clubs 

As for Youth Coaches - we could have looked abroad - see what was out there - advertised the role - try and change our outlook - advertised the role - be radical in our approach not just copy every other Scottish Club ? 

So are we as a Club better off with after the millions of investment ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I think we can agree the weirs are not involved in player recruitment or tactics or prob appointing the manager 

to me he has given us a solid financial footing and is developing our off the field infrastructure 

that is all good 

Assuming we are on a solid financial footing ? and that a deal similiar to the one put forward by stolen scone? is put in place then I would agree - but the devil is in the detial - and thats the bit that worries me 

My view is when we got the Weir money complacency started on multi levels- and that was the start of our downfall - no critiscm of Colin Weir but if you get free money -you dont have to fight as hard - just my opinion 

 

[javeajag]

6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The interest was manageable - the banks wrote of the debts of most Clubs 

As for Youth Coaches - we could have looked abroad - see what was out there - advertised the role - try and change our outlook - advertised the role - be radical in our approach not just copy every other Scottish Club ? 

So are we as a Club better off with after the millions of investment ? 

Could you point me to the source of the banks writing off other clubs debts ?

[KemoAvdiu]

Just now, Jordanhill Jag said:

The interest was manageable - the banks wrote of the debts of most Clubs 

As for Youth Coaches - we could have looked abroad - see what was out there - advertised the role - try and change our outlook - advertised the role - be radical in our approach not just copy every other Scottish Club ? 

So are we as a Club better off with after the millions of investment ? 

Okay so your criticism isn’t of establishing a youth academy, but of not appointing foreign coaches and instead appointing well qualified Scottish coaches? That’s an odd criticism. And I’ve seen multiple coaching jobs advertised at the Weir academy. Are we to translate these into Spanish and publish them in El Pais?

The approach within the Weir academy already seems, from what I’ve read, to be innovative in Scotland in some ways. E.g. the use of bio-banding (I think that’s the right term?), which according to media coverage was the first use of it in Scotland. Isn’t that the kind of different approach you’re (from what I can piece together from your posts) calling for? 

You’re asking are we better off because we are debt free? Of course we are, because we are debt free. That is a successful outcome. Are we more successful on the park at the moment? Clearly not. But that’s not because we are debt free, building a training ground and developing a youth academy. 

I’ve posted multiple times on here about my concerns over the club’s leadership, but I’m genuinely baffled at criticism being directed their way for accepting investment. Not sure what reasons you may have for your criticism but it does come across as very flimsy. 

[javeajag]

Just now, Jordanhill Jag said:

Assuming we are on a solid financial footing ? and that a deal similiar to the one put forward by stolen scone? is put in place then I would agree - but the devil is in the detial - and thats the bit that worries me 

My view is when we got the Weir money complacency started on multi levels- and that was the start of our downfall - no critiscm of Colin Weir but if you get free money -you dont have to fight as hard - just my opinion 

 

We had debts of over 600k now we are debt free.... there is no detail it’s in the accounts 

[KemoAvdiu]

2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

My view is when we got the Weir money complacency started on multi levels- and that was the start of our downfall - no critiscm of Colin Weir but if you get free money -you dont have to fight as hard - just my opinion 

 

So we should  keep ourselves in a state of debt and reject being better off in order to make the club work harder? 

Cool. 

[One t in Scotland]

A gentle reminder that after years of ThistleWeir investment the u18s lost to Kelty Hearts in the Youth Cup. Jobs for the boys HQ.

[Guest]

Just now, Jordanhill Jag said:

And we are bottom of the league with Crowds under 2000 - a good thing is of no use whatsoever unless its also the right thing 

No one is questioning that Colin Weir thinks he is doing well by his Club - question is - what is being achieved as a result 

 

With the greatest respect i find yout position incredulous. End of.

Startin to think you've an agenda here