jaf Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 I think every thistle fans owes a great debt of gratitude to the weirs. Whilst if I was grumbling I may have wished the new fans trust to be constituted differently and interact with the board differently, but these are minor quibbles. What they did for the club was fantastic. I do understand what some posters suggest, which is we need to be sustainable and as javeajag says there is no evidence that we are not balancing the books presently without the weirs being the cheque writer of last resort. If it turned out they were, then fans concerns could be justified. The other worry might be that an under performing board be propped up time and time again Howerver, at this moment, whilst we may all have differing views on the board, on the manager, on the players, even on eachother in this forum, one thing should not be in doubt - we owe a huge debt to the weirs for what he has done for the club financially over a number of recent years. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, javeajag said: You are making an assumption that the amount would not be adjusted for the division we are in and where did £125k come from ? Its what we pay for West of Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Auld Jag said: I would hope that the negotiations could be done on a season to season basis. Also with the Weirs being fans of Thistle I don't think they would leave us with a financial Albatross round our neck. The Chairman stated at the AGM the terms would be dictated by the Developer - therefore it was clear nothing had been detialed regards any sliding scale relating to income Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 11 hours ago, javeajag said: If planning permission is granted in January as planned then the training centre will be open in June you do not know if there is a lease agreement nor if there is one what it’s terms are the cost is the same as the training facilities we currently do not own start 2019 positive ! Nor will we own this one ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 Is this thread getting more like who can get the last word in* rather than going anywhere? Regardless of our opinions, is the Club's acceptance of the Weir financing with regards to the training facilities not a fait accompli? * fearing not I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach. -R Zimmerman 1964. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulguy jag Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, jaf said: I think every thistle fans owes a great debt of gratitude to the weirs. Whilst if I was grumbling I may have wished the new fans trust to be constituted differently and interact with the board differently, but these are minor quibbles. What they did for the club was fantastic. I do understand what some posters suggest, which is we need to be sustainable and as javeajag says there is no evidence that we are not balancing the books presently without the weirs being the cheque writer of last resort. If it turned out they were, then fans concerns could be justified. The other worry might be that an under performing board be propped up time and time again Howerver, at this moment, whilst we may all have differing views on the board, on the manager, on the players, even on eachother in this forum, one thing should not be in doubt - we owe a huge debt to the weirs for what he has done for the club financially over a number of recent years. How many clubs would love to have beneficiaries like the weirs. We find ourselves in a dogfight at the bottom of the second league rather than consolidation in the premier . The opportunity given to us by the Weirs once in a lifetime generosity has been totally squandered by this shambles of a board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted January 1, 2019 Report Share Posted January 1, 2019 20 minutes ago, mulguy jag said: How many clubs would love to have beneficiaries like the weirs. We find ourselves in a dogfight at the bottom of the second league rather than consolidation in the premier . The opportunity given to us by the Weirs once in a lifetime generosity has been totally squandered by this shambles of a board. Ran out of likes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 10 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Being debt free is better than not being debt free, all other things being equal. All else is often not equal, and I think Jim's point about the Weir money is how it has changed he culture of the club in terms of its attitude to its finances and the consequences of how decisions are taken about how the club is run. By analogy, of course a student is better off, all other things being equal, if they have financial support from their parents while at University. There is less pressure to take on part time work or to go deep into the overdraft or student loan, which might otherwise detract from either their studies, their future finances, or both. But we all know what students are like. A lot of them won't use their time as effectively as we would like to believe. That time not spent behind the bar invariably ends up being time spent propping it up, not just extra vital hours in the library. Having the burden sometimes strengthens the culture and work ethic. When someone else is on the hook for your financially (and otherwise) costly decisions, there is an element of human nature which makes people and organisations complacent. As someone who has admittedly seen less of the Club first hand the last 18 months or so, it looks and feels like a more complacent place than it did even 2 years ago. Sure, the player budget is bigger by (up to) whatever our annual interest payments were before on the principal debt, but are we spending the money as intelligently? Are we using that as a cushion or as a springboard? In a sense, the Weirs basically are funding our day-to-day expenditure through that one off investment; you can't separate the two completely. I think the Academy is ultimately a good thing, and the training facilities probably won't become a millstone around the neck unless in the third tier we'd literally otherwise be budgeting for tyres on rope in Ruchill Park. But the wider point about the impact of the Weir money on the psychology of the club as an organisation has some merit. Becoming debt free is inarguably a good thing, but just as winning the lottery itself can be a really good thing, it can also bring out the demons and weaknesses from those who stand to benefit from it. This makes sense if indeed it is the point jordanhill was trying to make then i get this point. There are concerning signs that this board are struggling with the footballing side of the business and i hope this is not an indication other parts of the company are being mis managed as well. If as you are saying there is risk to the boards mindset by way of finance then yes, very very worrying. I have zero confidence in this board under ms Low so far, i do though hope they are not taking more out of the month to month income than is deserved. My gripe re jordanhills points were, imho, his negative jibes at the weirs involvement. If his point was simply what you have highlighted in your post and i have mis read his original posts my apologies to him. I'll need to check back but your point is well made woodstock, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The Chairman stated at the AGM the terms would be dictated by the Developer - therefore it was clear nothing had been detialed regards any sliding scale relating to income Or ruled out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Its what we pay for West of Scotland Then having our own training centre for the same cost is a great deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 13 hours ago, jaf said: I think every thistle fans owes a great debt of gratitude to the weirs. Whilst if I was grumbling I may have wished the new fans trust to be constituted differently and interact with the board differently, but these are minor quibbles. What they did for the club was fantastic. I do understand what some posters suggest, which is we need to be sustainable and as javeajag says there is no evidence that we are not balancing the books presently without the weirs being the cheque writer of last resort. If it turned out they were, then fans concerns could be justified. The other worry might be that an under performing board be propped up time and time again Howerver, at this moment, whilst we may all have differing views on the board, on the manager, on the players, even on eachother in this forum, one thing should not be in doubt - we owe a huge debt to the weirs for what he has done for the club financially over a number of recent years. The issue isn't even "are we balancing our books at the moment". A rich man can break even while wasting a lot of money. The real question is are we spending our money as smartly as we were when we won this league on half the player budget. I think it's safe to say that, in a number of key respects, the answer to that question is a resounding "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, javeajag said: Then having our own training centre for the same cost is a great deal ... assuming our budget going forward can afford to pay what we do at the moment, flexibly, for third party training facilities. Edited January 2, 2019 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Woodstock Jag said: ... assuming our budget going forward can afford to pay what we do at the moment, flexibly, for third party training facilities. Unless we stop training and don’t have our own facilities we will have to pay to use other facilities no matter what our finances are.....back to ruchill park? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: The issue isn't even "are we balancing our books at the moment". A rich man can break even while wasting a lot of money. The real question is are we spending our money as smartly as we were when we won this league on half the player budget. I think it's safe to say that, in a number of key respects, the answer to that question is a resounding "no". Yeah I don’t disagree from the analysis I did previously of all the competing clubs accounts. Plus of course in terms of the more obvious value for money from playing squad! Edited January 2, 2019 by jaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 hours ago, javeajag said: Unless we stop training and don’t have our own facilities we will have to pay to use other facilities no matter what our finances are.....back to ruchill park? We were paying circa half of what we are now previously - do you think Alloa are spending £125K on training facilities ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 hours ago, javeajag said: Unless we stop training and don’t have our own facilities we will have to pay to use other facilities no matter what our finances are.....back to ruchill park? Can we afford Charnley for security if we go back to Ruchill ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 5 hours ago, javeajag said: Or ruled out Agreed but rather worrying that given all the Public Announcements leasing terms are still to be detailed ? And when the question was asked it was as if it had never occurred to them we couldn't afford the £125K - which makes sense if there plans are promotion this Season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 hours ago, Thistleberight said: This makes sense if indeed it is the point jordanhill was trying to make then i get this point. There are concerning signs that this board are struggling with the footballing side of the business and i hope this is not an indication other parts of the company are being mis managed as well. If as you are saying there is risk to the boards mindset by way of finance then yes, very very worrying. I have zero confidence in this board under ms Low so far, i do though hope they are not taking more out of the month to month income than is deserved. My gripe re jordanhills points were, imho, his negative jibes at the weirs involvement. If his point was simply what you have highlighted in your post and i have mis read his original posts my apologies to him. I'll need to check back but your point is well made woodstock, thanks It was - I have no issue with the Weirs on any level - it was the change in Culture associated with there input - however as always - my literary skills need a lot of improvement - I should employ WJ as my Ghost Writer - now that you have explained the underlying issue with the Jags - when are you sorting Brexit WJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: We were paying circa half of what we are now previously - do you think Alloa are spending £125K on training facilities ? Give it a rest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: It was - I have no issue with the Weirs on any level - it was the change in Culture associated with there input - however as always - my literary skills need a lot of improvement - I should employ WJ as my Ghost Writer - now that you have explained the underlying issue with the Jags - when are you sorting Brexit WJ Name your price, Jim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 53 minutes ago, javeajag said: Give it a rest Why ? because Im contradicting your statements ? Ive not said anything thats not true - I've not been abusive - its a Fans Forum - people are allowed to state there opinion - I think that the whole training Ground thing reflects a lack of detailed thought - which is worrying - for the Chairman to state at the AGM that the 3 Black Cats will dictate the terms -at this late stage in the game is a concern - Im not in the "it will be fine camp" Ive seen us sail far to close to the wind financially and escape by the skin of our teeth - so as a Fan Im raising concerns - if you have cold hard facts to prove Im wrong - no probs - but you don,t - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KemoAvdiu Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Why ? because Im contradicting your statements ? Ive not said anything thats not true - I've not been abusive - its a Fans Forum - people are allowed to state there opinion - I think that the whole training Ground thing reflects a lack of detailed thought - which is worrying - for the Chairman to state at the AGM that the 3 Black Cats will dictate the terms -at this late stage in the game is a concern - Im not in the "it will be fine camp" Ive seen us sail far to close to the wind financially and escape by the skin of our teeth - so as a Fan Im raising concerns - if you have cold hard facts to prove Im wrong - no probs - but you don,t - You’ve seen us sail close to the wind financially and escape by the skin of our teeth, yet you’ve spent about ten pages now essentially decrying multi-million pound investment in the club. Odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 52 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Why ? because Im contradicting your statements ? Ive not said anything thats not true - I've not been abusive - its a Fans Forum - people are allowed to state there opinion - I think that the whole training Ground thing reflects a lack of detailed thought - which is worrying - for the Chairman to state at the AGM that the 3 Black Cats will dictate the terms -at this late stage in the game is a concern - Im not in the "it will be fine camp" Ive seen us sail far to close to the wind financially and escape by the skin of our teeth - so as a Fan Im raising concerns - if you have cold hard facts to prove Im wrong - no probs - but you don,t - We have all heard and understand your point of view but it’s now just repetitive so let’s all move on....we don’t agree which is fine you went on about it at the agm ad nauseum and it’s the same here....if there’s nothing new to add let’s not repeat ourselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, KemoAvdiu said: You’ve seen us sail close to the wind financially and escape by the skin of our teeth, yet you’ve spent about ten pages now essentially decrying multi-million pound investment in the club. Odd. Going to play Devils Advocate a little bit , I don’t think JJ has any hidden agenda at all and I’m concerned with a lot of the issues he raises . A purpose built training Academy for us is good if we are playing at the top level of Scottish Football but the way we’re going we could playing in the third Tier , not sure if there is any teams at that level who have a purpose built Academy because the running costs are too high in relation to the perceived Income/Turnover, sometimes you’ve got to cut your cloth to fit . The Weirs have done a great job , clearing the debt and investing in the Club , the problem has been in my opinion that Archie etc weren’t guided by the previous Board of Directors what the aims and ambitions what the Academy had to achieve. Possibly the template could have been Hamilton Accies who have managed to run a successful Academy enabling young players a pathway to first team football and also staying in the SPFL. Hopefully when the Training Academy does get built , there will be meaningful business negotiations regarding the Lease , it can’t just be on the terms that the 3 Black Cats dictate and would have take into account the fluctuations that go on within our Club . Because of the Weirs involvement within the Club a business lease as a percentage of turnover might be possible, if it was anyone else involved I’m not so sure this would work out in a business deal as I’m not sure the Company investing in the Academy wouldn’t like their rent going up or down on a yearly basis . Edited January 2, 2019 by jlsarmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: We were paying circa half of what we are now previously - do you think Alloa are spending £125K on training facilities ? Do Alloa not have an all weather pitch that they can use for training for free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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