KemoAvdiu Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: None of them would and no Football Manager ever says No to anything as they arent paying for it -, We have gone backwards since we started using them - Im not saying they dont have there place -but they are no subsitute for simple hard work and for that there is tried and tested methods - in my opinion we have replaced proper hard training with over reliance on them - the fact we consistsntly lose late goals indicates we run out of steam - so fine go with the Sports Scientists - but its not working We haven’t gone backwards because of sports science. We have gone backwards (under consecutive managers) because of tactical inflexibility, poor recruitment, and an inability to motivate players. Applying science to training isn’t the cause of losing matches. Happy to give the flat earth approach a go and see where it takes us though. Get the players down Ruchill Park with tyres around them. Pints of Guinness for recovery. Meat, two veg and gravy for a pre match meal. Can get them to Brylcreem their hair and be paid in shillings too. I think we will agree to disagree on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, KemoAvdiu said: We haven’t gone backwards because of sports science. We have gone backwards (under consecutive managers) because of tactical inflexibility, poor recruitment, and an inability to motivate players. Applying science to training isn’t the cause of losing matches. Happy to give the flat earth approach a go and see where it takes us though. Get the players down Ruchill Park with tyres around them. Pints of Guinness for recovery. Meat, two veg and gravy for a pre match meal. Can get them to Brylcreem their hair and be paid in shillings too. I think we will agree to disagree on this one. Actually it standard training methods for Athletes - some of whom Ive known -were World Class - we consistantly lose goals in the last 10 minutes - but we will have to agree to differ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleBunnet Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: None of them would and no Football Manager ever says No to anything as they arent paying for it -, We have gone backwards since we started using them - Im not saying they dont have there place -but they are no subsitute for simple hard work and for that there is tried and tested methods - in my opinion we have replaced proper hard training with over reliance on them - the fact we consistsntly lose late goals indicates we run out of steam - so fine go with the Sports Scientists - but its not working It's a no brainer...a training ground would be absolutely beneficial to the club. The four pitches will be used for coaching as well as stamina and fitness training and not just for the first team but also the multiple academy teams and ladies. Also academy, ladies and reserve home games will all be played there. The gym will be useful for rehabilitation, strengthening, etc. And all this being built at no cost to the club. Yeah, we'll have to stump up the lease cost but as it stands we're paying for rent of facilities city wide at the moment. As I said no brainer! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: None of them would and no Football Manager ever says No to anything as they arent paying for it -, We have gone backwards since we started using them - Im not saying they dont have there place -but they are no subsitute for simple hard work and for that there is tried and tested methods - in my opinion we have replaced proper hard training with over reliance on them - the fact we consistsntly lose late goals indicates we run out of steam - so fine go with the Sports Scientists - but its not working think you are confusing arguments here. I am more inclined to accept the views of every successful team in Europe , rather than your good self. 'No substitute for hard work, tried and tested, proper hard training' , sorry but it all smacks of things were so much better in the old days when you could get into the pictures for a jamjar. Things have moved on . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Emsca said: think you are confusing arguments here. I am more inclined to accept the views of every successful team in Europe , rather than your good self. 'No substitute for hard work, tried and tested, proper hard training' , sorry but it all smacks of things were so much better in the old days when you could get into the pictures for a jamjar. Things have moved on . Yes, things have "moved on". Doesn't mean it's always for the better though. Does it. Many of today's "pros" would have struggled to get a game in Junior football 40 years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, AndyMac said: Yes, things have "moved on". Doesn't mean it's always for the better though. Does it. Many of today's "pros" would have struggled to get a game in Junior football 40 years ago. Yeah, bring back woollen jerseys and leather balls, Today's players are stronger, fitter , faster and generally more skilful than 40 years ago. Think your memory is playing tricks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, Emsca said: Yeah, bring back woollen jerseys and leather balls, Today's players are stronger, fitter , faster and generally more skilful than 40 years ago. Think your memory is playing tricks. That's right. Today's players are much better than the mugs that used to win major European trophies and regularly qualify for the World Cup finals 40 years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, Emsca said: Yeah, bring back woollen jerseys and leather balls, Today's players are stronger, fitter , faster and generally more skilful than 40 years ago. Think your memory is playing tricks. Show me a Jimmy Johnstone, Davie Cooper , Jim Baxter , Bobby Murdoch , Willie Henderson etc and I’ll believe you 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Emsca said: Yeah, bring back woollen jerseys and leather balls, Today's players are stronger, fitter , faster and generally more skilful than 40 years ago. Think your memory is playing tricks. Agree with everything you say there but for one part, which I could never accept. Assuming you're meaning Scottish footballers there's no way the skill factor today is anywhere near that of 40 years ago. You've hit it on the head when you say fitter and faster. I'd suggest the downside to that has been sacrificising or marginalising skill factors. To strengthen my argument, a wee bit at least, take Chic Charnley as an example. Twenty or so years ago he was considered an anachronism. Someone better suited to football of the previous generation. Chico wouldn't have been quite the stand out he was in the 90s a couple of decades earlier. Apologies again, Emsca, as I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Edited January 4, 2019 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, AndyMac said: Yes, things have "moved on". Doesn't mean it's always for the better though. Does it. Many of today's "pros" would have struggled to get a game in Junior football 40 years ago. Believe me please, they would all struggle at junior level today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Emsca said: Yeah, bring back woollen jerseys and leather balls, Today's players are stronger, fitter , faster and generally more skilful than 40 years ago. Think your memory is playing tricks. Throwing my tuppence worth as well as andymac etc, i think you might just have sold yersel a pup with this post young maaaaan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Agree with everything you say there but for one part, which I could never accept. Assuming you're meaning Scottish footballers there's no way the skill factor today is anywhere near that of 40 years ago. You've hit it on the head when you say fitter and faster. I'd suggest the downside to that has been sacrificising or marginalising skill factors. To strengthen my argument, a wee bit at least, take Chic Charnley as an example. Twenty or so years ago he was considered an anachronism. Someone better suited to football of the previous generation. Chico wouldn't have been quite the stand out he was in the 90s a couple of decades earlier. Apologies again, Emsca, as I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Really? What is a footballer without skill? Many of today's "pros" would have struggled to get a game in Junior football 40 years ago. So what if they're fitter, faster and stronger? What does any of that matter if they haven't got any skills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, lady-isobel-barnett said: Agree with everything you say there but for one part, which I could never accept. Assuming you're meaning Scottish footballers there's no way the skill factor today is anywhere near that of 40 years ago. You've hit it on the head when you say fitter and faster. I'd suggest the downside to that has been sacrificising or marginalising skill factors. To strengthen my argument, a wee bit at least, take Chic Charnley as an example. Twenty or so years ago he was considered an anachronism. Someone better suited to football of the previous generation. Chico wouldn't have been quite the stand out he was in the 90s a couple of decades earlier. Apologies again, Emsca, as I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. I agree with none of it. Individual players in the past are perhaps not as fast as another player or fitter over 90 minutes. You can't just wipe out three or more generations of footballers fitness, speed etc just cos this is the modern world. Tosh. Faster - Storey seems to be the fastest player we have just now. I can list you loads of players of the 70's 80's 90's as fast as him. Stamina/fitter? This shower we have can't last 90 minutes, shaw, craig, tge afore mentioned chico, park, melrose, houston, somner could run all day by fare as fit as what we have now. AND some were part time. Stronger - give me a break. They're softer than the hard men of my age. More skillfull? You will never convince me of that. Never. World cups , world class players back then. How many european club success and how mamy world cups or euro championships have we qualified for with this generation of players? More skilled players in the present day? Nope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Thistleberight said: I agree with none of it. More skillfull? You will never convince me of that. Never. World cups , world class players back then. How many european club success and how many world cups or euro championships have we qualified for with this generation of players? More skilled players in the present day? Nope Why are you quoting me re above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Agree with everything you say there but for one part, which I could never accept. Assuming you're meaning Scottish footballers there's no way the skill factor today is anywhere near that of 40 years ago. You've hit it on the head when you say fitter and faster. I'd suggest the downside to that has been sacrificising or marginalising skill factors. To strengthen my argument, a wee bit at least, take Chic Charnley as an example. Twenty or so years ago he was considered an anachronism. Someone better suited to football of the previous generation. Chico wouldn't have been quite the stand out he was in the 90s a couple of decades earlier. Apologies again, Emsca, as I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. You can only really compare the skill factor, if you take the players from 30 / 40 years ago and they trained just now they also would be stronger and faster in an athletic sense , if you reverse that would the skill sets of todays Scottish footballer ever reach the skill levels of a Cooper, Johnstone or as you mentioned Chic Not even a debate in my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 40 minutes ago, Thistleberight said: Throwing my tuppence worth as well as andymac etc, i think you might just have sold yersel a pup with this post young maaaaan 2 hours ago, jlsarmy said: Show me a Jimmy Johnstone, Davie Cooper , Jim Baxter , Bobby Murdoch , Willie Henderson etc and I’ll believe you I said GENERALLY more skilful, I fully accept there were some exceptionally skilful players in previous generations. It is an academic argument anyway as no way of proving one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Emsca said: I said GENERALLY more skilful, I fully accept there were some exceptionally skilful players in previous generations. It is an academic argument anyway as no way of proving one way or another. If today's players are fitter, why are they injured all the time? If today's players are stronger and tougher why do so many ponce about wearing gloves on mildly cold days? The late great Bill Shankly was once asked "Who was the greatest player ever to play for you?", without hesitation, Shankly replied "Gerry Byrne". The somewhat surprised interviewer then asked why? Shankly immediately replied that Byrne was the greatest, because he played in the 1965 FA Cup Final having being injured in the 7th minute and suffering a broken collar bone. There were no substitutions allowed in those days and Gerry Byrne hid his injury from the opposition for the entire game (as the would have worked it right into him), plus the full thirty minutes extra time. Byrne even managed to provide the cross for one of Liverpool's winning goals. All with a broken collar bone. Perhaps one of the reasons that today's football is so insipid, sanatised and teadiously boring, is because of footballing youth academies, pummelling out any ounce of natural skill a youngster may have. A strange Orwellian World, where bland identikit Stepford coaches, subject youngsters to the same tired cliched play book, that guarantees to relentlessly churn out uninspiring 3rd rate footballing clones. In today's footballing world, there would be no place for the likes of Chic Charnley, Bill Shankly and Gerry Bryne. They just wouldn't fit in. "It is an academic argument anyway as no way of proving one way or another" In the dark old days before all this advanced expert training. Scotland used to export players far and wide. Celtic won the 1967 European Cup with every player born within 30 miles of Glasgow. In the 1974 World Cup finals Scotland never lost a game. In fact Scotland are to this day, the only team not to win the World Cup, having been undefeated in the finals. Alan Rough as a Thistle player, was the Scotland keeper at the 1978 World Cup finals. In those days only 16 teams qualified for the finals. We were rated with a chance of winning that World Cup and we beat Holland in the group stages, who later went on to the final. These are just a small selection of some of the successes of Scottish football during this era and as Jimmy Cricket would of said "there's more". Lot's more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 4, 2019 Report Share Posted January 4, 2019 36 minutes ago, Emsca said: I said GENERALLY more skilful, I fully accept there were some exceptionally skilful players in previous generations. It is an academic argument anyway as no way of proving one way or another. Believe me , they aren’t even generally more skilful even at our level , players I watched growing up like Mcquade , Coulston , Bone , the Hansen bros etc would have walked into any of our teams because of their skill sets. These guys learned their skills playing on the streets , in today’s environment these skills would have been taken off them by safety first coaches wanting to play sterile football, possession football at all costs as we’re witnessing just now with very little thought of actually how to win the game . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, AndyMac said: If today's players are fitter, why are they injured all the time? If today's players are stronger and tougher why do so many ponce about wearing gloves on mildly cold days? The late great Bill Shankly was once asked "Who was the greatest player ever to play for you?", without hesitation, Shankly replied "Gerry Byrne". The somewhat surprised interviewer then asked why? Shankly immediately replied that Byrne was the greatest, because he played in the 1965 FA Cup Final having being injured in the 7th minute and suffering a broken collar bone. There were no substitutions allowed in those days and Gerry Byrne hid his injury from the opposition for the entire game (as the would have worked it right into him), plus the full thirty minutes extra time. Byrne even managed to provide the cross for one of Liverpool's winning goals. All with a broken collar bone. Perhaps one of the reasons that today's football is so insipid, sanatised and teadiously boring, is because of footballing youth academies, pummelling out any ounce of natural skill a youngster may have. A strange Orwellian World, where bland identikit Stepford coaches, subject youngsters to the same tired cliched play book, that guarantees to relentlessly churn out uninspiring 3rd rate footballing clones. In today's footballing world, there would be no place for the likes of Chic Charnley, Bill Shankly and Gerry Bryne. They just wouldn't fit in. "It is an academic argument anyway as no way of proving one way or another" In the dark old days before all this advanced expert training. Scotland used to export players far and wide. Celtic won the 1967 European Cup with every player born within 30 miles of Glasgow. In the 1974 World Cup finals Scotland never lost a game. In fact Scotland are to this day, the only team not to win the World Cup, having been undefeated in the finals. Alan Rough as a Thistle player, was the Scotland keeper at the 1978 World Cup finals. In those days only 16 teams qualified for the finals. We were rated with a chance of winning that World Cup and we beat Holland in the group stages, who later went on to the final. These are just a small selection of some of the successes of Scottish football during this era and as Jimmy Cricket would of said "there's more". Lot's more In fact, that's not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, BowenBoys said: In fact, that's not true. Who else has done it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, AndyMac said: Who else has done it? New Zealand 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 Todays Players are stronger as they spend a lot of time in the Gym honing there upper Bodies - Shoulders arms etc - there is however a downside to this in so much that as they are carrying more upper body Muscle - it adds weight which then impacts on the length of time & pace at which you can run - what we have to remember is that our Players don't have the work rate of Sprinters - they cover much more ground - as a benchmark Iniesta would average 10K a game - so stamina is a key element - the fact we struggle to last 90 minutes indicates questions on the proportion of time spent Running verses the amount of time in the Gym Pumping Iron As for Old Skool training -its difficult to compare like for like in Football - but if we look at performances in Sport outside Football as a benchmark - Andrew Butchart finished sixth in the Rio Olympics in the 5000m Final - he broke the Scottish 5000m record in doing so - a massive achievement in a World Class field - now here is the thing - the Scottish record had stood for 32 Years - now its a different Sport -but the training methods of 30 years ago applied across most Sports at that time - Scotland excelled on the Football Park in Europe and at Major Tournaments - Scottish Athletics has gone back to basics and Old Skool Training methods - we are churning out top class Male & Female Athletes - in training its simple and to quote a great Athlete - " Hard Graft & Brutal Bloody Minded Consistency" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, BowenBoys said: New Zealand 2010 Good shout Bowen Boys I really must throw out that old Topical Times Football Annual 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 5 hours ago, BowenBoys said: New Zealand 2010 But Scotland skelped them in 82 World Cup so thats us back to being unofficial trophy winners in my eyes Regards modern day coaching, there is a boys team who train in park where I walk my dogs and anytime I have passed this session the coach has been standing preaching to a bunch of disinterested looking lads whilst the balls lie idly at the side. I know when my son was younger and played this was also the case. All wrong imo and something that is obviously filtered down from the Largs coaching badges brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Todays Players are stronger as they spend a lot of time in the Gym honing there upper Bodies - Shoulders arms etc - there is however a downside to this in so much that as they are carrying more upper body Muscle - it adds weight which then impacts on the length of time & pace at which you can run - what we have to remember is that our Players don't have the work rate of Sprinters - they cover much more ground - as a benchmark Iniesta would average 10K a game - so stamina is a key element - the fact we struggle to last 90 minutes indicates questions on the proportion of time spent Running verses the amount of time in the Gym Pumping Iron As for Old Skool training -its difficult to compare like for like in Football - but if we look at performances in Sport outside Football as a benchmark - Andrew Butchart finished sixth in the Rio Olympics in the 5000m Final - he broke the Scottish 5000m record in doing so - a massive achievement in a World Class field - now here is the thing - the Scottish record had stood for 32 Years - now its a different Sport -but the training methods of 30 years ago applied across most Sports at that time - Scotland excelled on the Football Park in Europe and at Major Tournaments - Scottish Athletics has gone back to basics and Old Skool Training methods - we are churning out top class Male & Female Athletes - in training its simple and to quote a great Athlete - " Hard Graft & Brutal Bloody Minded Consistency" There is actually a lot of sense in what JJ is actually saying and one of the most recent examples is Roman Lukaku at Man Utd who said he had became too muscle bound with the wrong training. This impacted on his speed and mobility. Footballers fitness should be geared more to running and stamina because of the distance covered in a game . I also think we don’t use enough sprint coaches within the game especially with the forwards which would give them a sharpness . If I remember correctly John Lambie did this at one point, the man was ahead of his time ! Sports Science obviously helps in details of how fit the player is , whether the heart is working at the maximum, what muscle groups to work on etc. Probably a balance of old skool and utilising the Sports Science stuff would be good for us at our level . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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