laukat Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, allyo said: Realistically what do we think? Resigned (ha, if only) to him staying or is there a point after another 2 or 3 defeats where the board could make a move? Over the next 2 months we only have 3 games at home and we all know our away record. So if we lose to Falkirk on the 12th January he really should be binned. If the board decide to plough on with him after that we are pretty much dead certs for relegation. Losing to Alloa on the 12th February would make it impossible for the board to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 23 minutes ago, allyo said: Realistically what do we think? Resigned (ha, if only) to him staying or is there a point after another 2 or 3 defeats where the board could make a move? If we give him the full transfer window I think he is here to the end of this season at least. If we finish 8th or above Low and Caldwell will acclaim it as being a big success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, laukat said: Over the next 2 months we only have 3 games at home and we all know our away record. So if we lose to Falkirk on the 12th January he really should be binned. If the board decide to plough on with him after that we are pretty much dead certs for relegation. Losing to Alloa on the 12th February would make it impossible for the board to keep him. Not to great at home either. December we had 3 winnable games at home and only picked up 4 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just now, Auld Jag said: Not to great at home either. December we had 3 winnable games at home and only picked up 4 points. Yip, I think the result we will regret the most is beating Dunfermline at home. If we had lost I think Caldwell would have been binned after the Morton game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 17 hours ago, Garscube Road End said: To bring back a failure would just confirm us as a mickey mouse club. To be honest, in the very unlikely event that Archie & Shaggy were to make a Lazarus like comeback, the positions of Jacqui Low and Gerry Britton would be pretty much untenable. Furthermore, if they did manage to keep us up, there would be a section of the support that would want them to stay on at the seasons end and another that would want them away. It could well lead to more kicking the can down the road and sowing the seeds for further divisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Third Lanark said: Considering Archie and Paterson have played their part in the last shambolic 18 months I would prefer they didn’t come back as manager and assistant Fair comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 45 minutes ago, laukat said: Yip, I think the result we will regret the most is beating Dunfermline at home. If we had lost I think Caldwell would have been binned after the Morton game. Absolutely. To think in a run of 7 league games from early December , we will play the other 5 of the bottom 6 all at home by end of January, I think that tells you a lot about the run of games we have coming up in February and March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 54 minutes ago, laukat said: Losing to Alloa on the 12th February would make it impossible for the board to keep him. “The transfer window has only just closed. We need to give the manager time to bed in these quality new signings. We will not unfairly knee jerk like his previous employers did. The aim remains promotion to a league where we belong”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow & Redneck Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Most of the points are bang on the money. However, until the fans actually take some proactive action in expressing these feelings, I don't think the club will take much notice. Until banners are unfurled in the JL Stand, or there are coordinated boycotts of certain home matches, mass action, or protests outside the main offices, I have a feeling it will be business as usual. Of course this is difficult to organise if there isn't any real appetite for it. Edited January 2, 2019 by Yellow & Redneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 I'm for storming the South End at half time and planting a big "**** the lot of you" flag, Iwo Jima style, at the top of the Bing. We could all take turns of being Ira Hayes. Well, I'm sure others will have much better ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: I'm for storming the South End at half time and planting a big "**** the lot of you" flag, Iwo Jima style, at the top of the Bing. We could all take turns of being Ira Hayes. Well, I'm sure others will have much better ideas. LIB, Not convinced the Scott Paterson managerial option is a goer. With Gerry Britton it would be a case of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. I don't think he would be any better than Gary Caldwell. However, Kris Doolan & Chris Erskine are a much more palatable option. They're on the books, are professional intelligent people, with excellent footballing brains, loyal to the cause and would welcome the opportunity to rise to the challenge. You are right LIB; we could do an awful lot worse than fire Caldwell with immediate effect and hand over the reigns to Doolan & Erskine. They deserve a chance , they've earned the right to have a crack at it, a dammed sight more than Gary Caldwell. Under the present circumstances, it's a decent option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 I still have a horrible feeling that if Caldwell is still our manager in February, Chris Erskine won’t be on our books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said: I still have a horrible feeling that if Caldwell is still our manager in February, Chris Erskine won’t be on our books. That would be a monumental failure by the Club. Erskine is one of the few to be able to give us creativity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, sandy said: That would be a monumental failure by the Club. Erskine is one of the few to be able to give us creativity. Ah but! Harkins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 4 hours ago, sandy said: That would be a monumental failure by the Club. Erskine is one of the few to be able to give us creativity. Or who seems to care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 If the situation does not improve after the window, and fans want a change that is not happening, then surely the fans should take back control of the Trust, and not allow Low to use it as a power base. I realise that perhaps this would create friction with the Weirs, who I think brought in Low, but their overall aim was to give fans a greater say in the running of the club. That has not happened. I don't have information on up to date shareholdings, but as of the end of 2016, neither Jacqui Low nor Ian Dodd held any shares in the Club according to the Annual Return. Brian Donald held only 400 A shares, and of course Michael Robertson and Alan Rough only became directors last year so I have no data at all on them. The directors therefore have a made a very small financial commitment to the business, and Low and Dodds (who has been a director since May 2011) in particular need to be asked what their current shareholding is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 19 minutes ago, eljaggo said: If the situation does not improve after the window, and fans want a change that is not happening, then surely the fans should take back control of the Trust, and not allow Low to use it as a power base. I realise that perhaps this would create friction with the Weirs, who I think brought in Low, but their overall aim was to give fans a greater say in the running of the club. That has not happened. I don't have information on up to date shareholdings, but as of the end of 2016, neither Jacqui Low nor Ian Dodd held any shares in the Club according to the Annual Return. Brian Donald held only 400 A shares, and of course Michael Robertson and Alan Rough only became directors last year so I have no data at all on them. The directors therefore have a made a very small financial commitment to the business, and Low and Dodds (who has been a director since May 2011) in particular need to be asked what their current shareholding is. Shareholders own a club; directors run the club. the way our club is constituted gives the directors a lot of power. The directors financial commitment is the giving of their unremunerated time. I do not mind them having no shares if they have skillsets that make them the best people for the jobs, or even if you cut them open and they bleed red and yellow. I also do not think this ought to cause friction with the Weirs - if the Weirs wanted to control the club then Colin Weir could have taken those shares in his own name rather than issue them to a supporters trust. That he didn't, suggests he does not want control. It is the directors who have implemented the Trust to be what it is today. I think everything Colin Weir has done has been for the good of Partick Thistle rather than the good of J Low, her rise to Chair may be a by-product of it, but it was not his goal. His goal was surely the wellbeing of the club. Therefore if catastrophe looms, I think there should be no automatic assumption friction with Colin Weir would be created in such a scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 It is extremely unusual for a director of a firm not to hold shares in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KemoAvdiu Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, eljaggo said: If the situation does not improve after the window, and fans want a change that is not happening, then surely the fans should take back control of the Trust, and not allow Low to use it as a power base. I realise that perhaps this would create friction with the Weirs, who I think brought in Low, but their overall aim was to give fans a greater say in the running of the club. That has not happened. I don't have information on up to date shareholdings, but as of the end of 2016, neither Jacqui Low nor Ian Dodd held any shares in the Club according to the Annual Return. Brian Donald held only 400 A shares, and of course Michael Robertson and Alan Rough only became directors last year so I have no data at all on them. The directors therefore have a made a very small financial commitment to the business, and Low and Dodds (who has been a director since May 2011) in particular need to be asked what their current shareholding is. Superb post, and just to complete the circle I am relatively certain that neither Rough nor Robertson have shares. This, to me, is a bizarre and troubling situation. The role of the Trust really does have to be examined and questioned. I have posted on this before, and to repeat I don’t mean any of this as criticism of the volunteers running the Trust, but it is entirely invisible and seems wholly designed to act as a patsy to the board. I think I’m right in saying both the Chief Exec and the Chairman sit on the Trust board (plus maybe one other Director?). For a fans’ Trust this is not credible. If the Weirs’ involvement in the club is predicated upon certain individuals being involved in the club and/or a non-credible Trust holding shares then that really isn’t a sustainable involvement. Edited January 3, 2019 by KemoAvdiu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 52 minutes ago, eljaggo said: If the situation does not improve after the window, and fans want a change that is not happening, then surely the fans should take back control of the Trust, and not allow Low to use it as a power base. I realise that perhaps this would create friction with the Weirs, who I think brought in Low, but their overall aim was to give fans a greater say in the running of the club. That has not happened. I don't have information on up to date shareholdings, but as of the end of 2016, neither Jacqui Low nor Ian Dodd held any shares in the Club according to the Annual Return. Brian Donald held only 400 A shares, and of course Michael Robertson and Alan Rough only became directors last year so I have no data at all on them. The directors therefore have a made a very small financial commitment to the business, and Low and Dodds (who has been a director since May 2011) in particular need to be asked what their current shareholding is. Okay. If Colin Weir's overall aim was to give fans a greater say, and if Jacqui Low was brought in by the Weirs (supposedly to progress their vision), then it follows on that Jacqui Low should be open and sensitive to the views of the fans. Not necessarily reactive, but at least willing to listen. To what extent has this been tested by the fans? Are we simply assuming she would not be, while bitching on a fans' forum? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KemoAvdiu Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, allyo said: Okay. If Colin Weir's overall aim was to give fans a greater say, and if Jacqui Low was brought in by the Weirs (supposedly to progress their vision), then it follows on that Jacqui Low should be open and sensitive to the views of the fans. Not necessarily reactive, but at least willing to listen. To what extent has this been tested by the fans? Are we simply assuming she would not be, while bitching on a fans' forum? A good test would be how credible the fans’ trust that she helped establish actually is. Given that it is dominated by club directors / employees, seems designed to be impotent, is totally invisible, and is not granted a seat on the board despite being the majority shareholder, I feel certain that our Chair isn’t serious about fan empowerment. I do think you make a good point though. How else are views being communicated to her and the board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 Make no mistake - if results don't improve after the window and Caldwell's players prove to be dud the knives with be out. It could get really ugly at match days and he will not last long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 28 minutes ago, eljaggo said: It is extremely unusual for a director of a firm not to hold shares in it. No it isn't. In small companies, it is, but in larger companies it is commonplace. Anyway, don't want to argue, as I agree with the substance of your point, but for future reference I would want our directors to be the best qualified for the job and with the best skillsets rather than being restricted in them having to come from within our shareholding base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 18 minutes ago, KemoAvdiu said: A good test would be how credible the fans’ trust that she helped establish actually is. Given that it is dominated by club directors / employees, seems designed to be impotent, is totally invisible, and is not granted a seat on the board despite being the majority shareholder, I feel certain that our Chair isn’t serious about fan empowerment. I do think you make a good point though. How else are views being communicated to her and the board? Maybe we just e-mail her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted January 3, 2019 Report Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, allyo said: Maybe we just e-mail her? No pitchforks. I'm so Thistle stereotype. Like when I once took sushi into Easter Road. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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