Fawlty Towers Posted March 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: What bothers me most is that after 2 1/2 years of McCall there is not a single team in the championship that we would be confident of beating. I am sorry but I genuinely don't understand this statement. By "we" do you mean the fans or the team. Also, of the 9 other teams we have beaten 8 of them this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 54 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: So. If Thistle were to go part time, do you think that would be a good or a bad thing for ambitions of getting to the Premier League ? Of course that is a very one dimensional question. And as you very well know there are many things that are good or bad for a clubs chances for promotion, not just whether the players are part time or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: What bothers me most is that after 2 1/2 years of McCall there is not a single team in the championship that we would be confident of beating. That is and has been the nature of the championship for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 35 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Of course that is a very one dimensional question. And as you very well know there are many things that are good or bad for a clubs chances for promotion, not just whether the players are part time or not. So you agree that, all things being even, being full time gives a club an advantage over being part time. Otherwise, what is the point of any club being full time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 30 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: That is and has been the nature of the championship for years. There is usually one or two clubs that break away and win most games. After this time I would have liked us to be one of those teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: There is usually one or two clubs that break away and win most games. After this time I would have liked us to be one of those teams. Unfortunately we just aren't good enough. In a dreadful standard of football that the league is, that makes even more frustrating. That lies at the feet of the manager. Edited March 13, 2022 by Garscube Road End 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: Unfortunately we just aren't good enough. In a dreadful standard of football that the league is, that makes even more frustrating. That lies at the feet of the manager. I disagree with this. If we were one of the worst teams in the Championship, that would be the fault of the manager. But when we are one of the better teams in this league, but the Championship is poor, that is the fault of Scottish football more generally. The Scottish talent pool is poor, and a club like ours is still predominantly going to rely on home grown players. Judging by the league as a whole, the talent isn’t there. Also, as our league becomes weaker, we become less of a draw for decent English or other foreign talent. This is exacerbated by the huge financial disparity between the leagues (I expect we pay wages at a level of tier 4 or 5 of the English leagues). The whole point of league football is you compare yourself to your peers, i.e., the teams in your own league, and not some preconceived idea of how good the league “should” be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 Firstly when discussing full time over part time, Arbroath are in many ways a bad example. They are exceptionally fit in that regards. Last season, albeit from the disadvantage of watching streams and not attending games, it was noticeable that most of the teams we played tired later on in the games against us. Also as the season progressed our midweek results against part time teams mostly resulted in emphatic wins. Two things you expect from full time teams over part timers are being more equipped to play a full 90 mins and to play out a full season better. I'm unable to say why Arbroath appear to buck the trend but I strongly believe they're exceptions to the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: There is usually one or two clubs that break away and win most games. After this time I would have liked us to be one of those teams. Wouldn't we all ! The reality is that not one team has really broken away this season, albeit that could change in the next 3 or 4 games. With regard to the standard of the championship being poor this year ( who can really judge ) the same comment applies to the Premier league. It is what it is and for some to downplay the team/manager for "only" being third is quite frankly lacking in objectivity, given the background of the last 3 seasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted March 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) I think every season there are people who say that this is the worst standard ever. The same way there tends to be a view that football was better x number of years ago but if you went back x years you would find guys in a stadium saying "this is rubbish - standard was better y years ago". Edited March 13, 2022 by Fawlty Towers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, dl1971 said: Wouldn't we all ! The reality is that not one team has really broken away this season, albeit that could change in the next 3 or 4 games. With regard to the standard of the championship being poor this year ( who can really judge ) the same comment applies to the Premier league. It is what it is and for some to downplay the team/manager for "only" being third is quite frankly lacking in objectivity, given the background of the last 3 seasons. Given the last 3 seasons. When covid struck we shouldn't have been bottom. McCall made a horlicks of it. We shouldn't have been in League 1, we should be in our second season in the Championship and with a season behind us we should be in a stronger position than we are. And of course the financial loss to the club by McCall taking us down is hurting us badly. Yes, we are 3rd, and I have said that if we stay in top 4, McCall should get another season? But if we fall out of the top 4 he should walk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: Given the last 3 seasons. When covid struck we shouldn't have been bottom. McCall made a horlicks of it. We shouldn't have been in League 1, we should be in our second season in the Championship and with a season behind us we should be in a stronger position than we are. And of course the financial loss to the club by McCall taking us down is hurting us badly. Yes, we are 3rd, and I have said that if we stay in top 4, McCall should get another season? But if we fall out of the top 4 he should walk. In mitigation for the relegation, I do believe the squad we had when he took over was truly dreadful-the worst we’d had since the Campbell era. Most managers would have taken us down that season inheriting that squad, particularly with the league being unexpectedly curtailed. The players he brought in that January did improve the squad in the long term (in particular Brownlie, Rudden, Graham). However, the new players took time to bed in and just when they started looking like they might, the league was unexpected ended. That is bad luck and and at the very least provides mitigation for the relegation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said: In mitigation for the relegation, I do believe the squad we had when he took over was truly dreadful-the worst we’d had since the Campbell era. Most managers would have taken us down that season inheriting that squad, particularly with the league being unexpectedly curtailed. The players he brought in that January did improve the squad in the long term (in particular Brownlie, Rudden, Graham). However, the new players took time to bed in and just when they started looking like they might, the league was unexpected ended. That is bad luck and and at the very least provides mitigation for the relegation McCall's results with the squad before his derisive transfer window were better. Yes, the squad was poor, but he was getting results out of them. His transfer window made us even worse. Certainly no mitigation for the manager's poor performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: Given the last 3 seasons. When covid struck we shouldn't have been bottom. McCall made a horlicks of it. We shouldn't have been in League 1, we should be in our second season in the Championship and with a season behind us we should be in a stronger position than we are. And of course the financial loss to the club by McCall taking us down is hurting us badly. Yes, we are 3rd, and I have said that if we stay in top 4, McCall should get another season? But if we fall out of the top 4 he should walk. No one knows if we would be in a stronger position if Covid had not intervened. Are ICT, Raith, QOS and Morton stronger for example.? So your argument holds zero weight I'm afraid. Additionally the financial windfill they received has not made them better than us. So presumably McCall has bought wisely, or is that just luck? Edited March 13, 2022 by dl1971 Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: McCall's results with the squad before his derisive transfer window were better. Yes, the squad was poor, but he was getting results out of them. His transfer window made us even worse. Certainly no mitigation for the manager's poor performance. This is where our views differ. He did do remarkably well prior to the window with that squad. However, he knew as did pretty much everyone else that the squad was nowhere near good enough. While hindsight is 20/20, there is no way he could have known the season was going to be suddenly curtailed just as he had taken the hit of bedding in a load of new players, but before the benefit was felt of the better players once bedded in. So I do think there is some mitigation, yes. Edited March 13, 2022 by Duke Gekantawa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: So you agree that, all things being even, being full time gives a club an advantage over being part time. Otherwise, what is the point of any club being full time ? All things aren’t equal though. I would guess that at the moment there aren’t enough players willing to play part time in the championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: There is usually one or two clubs that break away and win most games. After this time I would have liked us to be one of those teams. This season there were 5 teams that broke away from the rest and we are one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 6 hours ago, laukat said: The loss of income from not being in the Championship and particularly the £500k covid grant is most definitely a disadvantage and perhaps the decision to groundshare was based on closing that financial gap. We got the grant for the league we were in. We ended up in that league as we’d been crap up until it was called. As for a disadvantage, we had ST money with no match-day operating costs, and the go-fund me money. Even following season in League 1 we had high season ticket numbers (no match day operation costs), more go-fund me yet our balance sheet is worse than the other clubs in the 3 bottom leagues regarding losses (without 3BC £500k+ input). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted March 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: We got the grant for the league we were in. We ended up in that league as we’d been crap up until it was called. As for a disadvantage, we had ST money with no match-day operating costs, and the go-fund me money. Even following season in League 1 we had high season ticket numbers (no match day operation costs), more go-fund me yet our balance sheet is worse than the other clubs in the 3 bottom leagues regarding losses (without 3BC £500k+ input). I hate to get in to the £500K thing again but the Scottish Government did not put the chunk of money they did in to football to be distributed on a division by division basis. They gave it to help clubs with the loss of gate receipts. It was when the footballing authorities got involved they just decided to give it out on an easy to manage, every one in this division gets x basis. Anyway, if we can't win the title this season let's finish as high as we can for the most prize money possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 37 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: All things aren’t equal though. I would guess that at the moment there aren’t enough players willing to play part time in the championship. Why can you not admit that there is an advantage for a football club to be full time over part time ? If there wasn’t then nobody would. I guess that our current situation depends on how much responsibility you think McCall should take for our relegation (in my opinion the majority). If it wasn’t for that, this would be his second full season and we would not be at the financial disadvantage to the other clubs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End 2 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, dl1971 said: No one knows if we would be in a stronger position if Covid had not intervened. Are ICT, Raith, QOS and Morton stronger for example.? So your argument holds zero weight I'm afraid. Additionally the financial windfill they received has not made them better than us. So presumably McCall has bought wisely, or is that just luck? You might think McCall has bought wisely, but her certainly hasn't used them wisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Garscube Road End 2 said: You might think McCall has bought wisely, but her certainly hasn't used them wisely. Yet we are 3rd in the league, against teams who had a massive financial advantage following covid. So presumably he is utilising the players reasonably wisely. I know its difficult to admit, but we are essentially punching above our weight. McCall must be doing something right.....that said I'm a bit disappointed that we could have been in a better position, but pragmatic enough to realise we have rebounded rather well of late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: Why can you not admit that there is an advantage for a football club to be full time over part time ? If there wasn’t then nobody would. I guess that our current situation depends on how much responsibility you think McCall should take for our relegation (in my opinion the majority). If it wasn’t for that, this would be his second full season and we would not be at the financial disadvantage to the other clubs. So the most unfair relegation in the history of Scottish football ( even many non thistle fans say so ) caused by a worldwide pandemic, is down to the manager. Really? As nonsensical as that statement is, you forget once more ( or choose to ignore ) that those who got the windfall are actually all below us, bar Arbroath. Money doesn't always equate to performance and for that McCall and his team should actually be given credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, dl1971 said: So the most unfair relegation in the history of Scottish football ( even many non thistle fans say so ) caused by a worldwide pandemic, is down to the manager. Really? As nonsensical as that statement is, you forget once more ( or choose to ignore ) that those who got the windfall are actually all below us, bar Arbroath. Money doesn't always equate to performance and for that McCall and his team should actually be given credit. If we had not been bottom of the league, the vote would still be just as unfair, but another team would have been at the wrong end of it. So the question I am asking is who is responsible for us being bottom of the league at that point in time ? The financial excuses all stem from that. If we had not been bottom, we would not have been relegated and would have had the same cash as every one else. In my opinion McCall as first team manager should take the largest chunk of the blame for us being bottom at the time of the vote. Caldwell left him with an awful squad, but we were not bottom when McCall took over or at the start of the January window. If you think McCall is completely blameless, please let me know who you think is to blame for that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted March 13, 2022 Report Share Posted March 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: If we had not been bottom of the league, the vote would still be just as unfair, but another team would have been at the wrong end of it. So the question I am asking is who is responsible for us being bottom of the league at that point in time ? The financial excuses all stem from that. If we had not been bottom, we would not have been relegated and would have had the same cash as every one else. In my opinion McCall as first team manager should take the largest chunk of the blame for us being bottom at the time of the vote. Caldwell left him with an awful squad, but we were not bottom when McCall took over or at the start of the January window. If you think McCall is completely blameless, please let me know who you think is to blame for that ? No one was to blame because the circumstances were unprecedented. I would think any fair minded objective person would see that, irrespective of what team was bottom at that juncture and what team they support. Why we are returning to that subject ( which only raises its head following a bad result ) is beyond me. In my opinion there is a bitterness towards mccall that is unwarranted and droning on about it is simply tiresome. Why not look on the positives for a change, concentrate on the future, rather than drowning in whataboutery? I'll ask you a question. Has the team exceeded your expectations this season or not? Or did you expect automatic promotion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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