Woodstock Jag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 1 hour ago, joekea said: "Fan ownership, by its very nature, must involve some kind of financial commitment, probably monthly or annually, to the club." Why is this the case? We have been gifted the investment already made by CW. In Motherwell's case, the monthly payment is to pay back a £1m loan from the former owner to the fans to buy the club. I can understand the very real need to spend more on the stadium as this will deteriorate and cost more to fix if it isn't maintained properly. I would not want another £10 per month of my hard earned going on a players budget when the normal entry, season ticket, advertisement, sponsorship and other income should take care of that on a proper budget. Any other opinions on the above or ring fencing monthly contributions? It is far from clear, based on the publicly available information, how sustainable Partick Thistle Football Club is if you were to strip out any ongoing financial support provided by Three Black Cats/Colin Weir. The public accounts simply aren’t detailed enough to make that assessment. This is why many of us think due diligence is so important. No fan-owned organisation can give a clear-eyed view of how much ongoing fundraising it needs to do to keep Thistle competitive on the park and at break even with the bank without being able to see, in extensive detail, the underlying ability of the Club to generate revenue independently of its present owners. It may well be that Three Black Cats/Colin Weir’s Estate (directly or indirectly) provides very little if any financial support to the Club. If this is indeed the case, the most recent set of accounts suggest Thistle is roughly break even and is not significantly dependent on fan-owner-shareholder revenue capacity. If, on the other hand, say, Three Black Cats has been plugging a hole in the Club finances (by whatever means) and that ongoing support is going to go away, or to be scaled back, then there is a clear need to raise funds on an ongoing basis beyond the acquisition of the shares. Otherwise, bluntly, the Club won’t be “debt free” for very long and won’t be able to make one-off improvements to its facilities without slashing the player budget. Most fan owned Clubs look to retain ongoing contributions and revenue raising activity beyond the acquisition of the shares. Because ultimately, their clubs are competing against non fan owned teams with bigger budgets underwritten by rich owners. And if you want to be competitive that means maximising your budget from the revenue streams available to you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: 5 hours ago, joekea said: It is far from clear, based on the publicly available information, how sustainable Partick Thistle Football Club is if you were to strip out any ongoing financial support provided by Three Black Cats/Colin Weir. The public accounts simply aren’t detailed enough to make that assessment. What’s not clear is why someone from the TJF who met with the club to ask these very questions has not communicated the answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 27 minutes ago, javeajag said: What’s not clear is why someone from the TJF who met with the club to ask these very questions has not communicated the answers I haven’t joined TJF, but I believe they did answer it by saying no information had been passed on . The club or (3BC), have said that information has been given but not passed on to the fans. In the past I would probably have believed the club, but I am not so sure now. The statement(s) a couple of weeks ago just feel as if there is another agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 1 hour ago, javeajag said: What’s not clear is why someone from the TJF who met with the club to ask these very questions has not communicated the answers And you know this how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 As a member of all three supporters organisations, it is my opinion that the only one which goes any way to represent the fans wishes is TJF and even then it's not perfect. But as TJF is at least showing some semblance of being a democratic organisation, then in my thinking it is the only one we should be considering supporting and pushing to take on the ownership of our club. I set up a standing order to The Jags Trust several years ago and apart from a notice of AGM (don't even think it has been issued annually) have had no communication. As a season ticket holder for a good few years I apparantly am a member of PTFC but only know this from reading it on here. It's time we all started to push for TJF to be our sole representative organisation and try to find a way to communicate to the people controlling the other two "fans organisations" that this is the way forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 3 hours ago, javeajag said: What’s not clear is why someone from the TJF who met with the club to ask these very questions has not communicated the answers My understanding is that no meaningful answers on this point have been provided to The Jags Foundation by either Three Black Cats or The Club. You can’t really communicate an as-good-as blank piece of paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said: My understanding is that no meaningful answers on this point have been provided to The Jags Foundation by either Three Black Cats or The Club. You can’t really communicate an as-good-as blank piece of paper. I think it would be helpful to publish the questions asked and the answers given so we all have a common understanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stolenscone Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, javeajag said: I think it would be helpful to publish the questions asked and the answers given so we all have a common understanding To be fair, the Club could do this as well. TJF position appears to be that the questions were not answered; the Club position is that full answers have been given but not passed on. If the latter is true, it would be a simple matter to bypass TJF and make the responses public to the supporters. With such an easy self help mechanism, it seems odd to accuse TJF of secrecy but not to make the information public themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 Indeed @stolenscone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 Low blunted the demands for fan representation on the PTFC Board by appointing her choices from the Jags Trust. With three Trust directors still on both boards, and no elections for the Trust board for years, the Trust seems to all intents and purposes controlled by Low. No matter how many fans sign up for the Foundation, Low will ignore that, and simply persuade the executors of the Weir estate that his wishes can be met by giving the shares to the Trust as a "fit and proper" organisation. We should be giving the Trust as much attention as the Foundation and pressing for elections ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted April 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 3 hours ago, eljaggo said: Low blunted the demands for fan representation on the PTFC Board by appointing her choices from the Jags Trust. With three Trust directors still on both boards, and no elections for the Trust board for years, the Trust seems to all intents and purposes controlled by Low. No matter how many fans sign up for the Foundation, Low will ignore that, and simply persuade the executors of the Weir estate that his wishes can be met by giving the shares to the Trust as a "fit and proper" organisation. We should be giving the Trust as much attention as the Foundation and pressing for elections ASAP. Your mixing Jags Trust up with Partick Thistle trust 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 51 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said: Could you clear this up then. I have to admit I wouldn’t be able to. But, I don’t believe any grouping not answerable to the supporters (through their leadership being democratically-elected periodically) should be given the shares. This rules out eg those who are chosen by eg the Board or anyone on it. https://www.facebook.com/ptfctrust https://www.jagstrust.com/ https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/ These are links to the on-line presence of the 3 "supporters trusts". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 I hit post before I finished typing. The PTFC Trust was set up by the club and seems to claim to be representing season ticket holders of over 2 seasons standing.. The Jags Trust was set up and given shares following the Save the Jags campaign. It's not clear who actually runs it as you can see from their web-site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 3 hours ago, scotty said: https://www.facebook.com/ptfctrust https://www.jagstrust.com/ https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/ These are links to the on-line presence of the 3 "supporters trusts". If you go back up this thread to Page 4 (5.06pm on Thursday 21st April) you will find the following post by Norge So to give a breakdown and understanding of the groups and governance of the club and its trusts we’ve compiled and provided the following. I'd encourage everyone who cares to join the foundation Immediately below is a detailed document giving information about Jags Trust and PTFC Trust and other forms of (alleged) fan representation. If you read this document, that should help to answer a lot of the questions raised in the last few posts on this page and to establish clearly that TJF is the only potentially effective fans' representative grouping for the purposes of receiving the shares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted April 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 30 minutes ago, partickthedog said: If you go back up this thread to Page 4 (5.06pm on Thursday 21st April) you will find the following post by Norge So to give a breakdown and understanding of the groups and governance of the club and its trusts we’ve compiled and provided the following. I'd encourage everyone who cares to join the foundation Immediately below is a detailed document giving information about Jags Trust and PTFC Trust and other forms of (alleged) fan representation. If you read this document, that should help to answer a lot of the questions raised in the last few posts on this page and to establish clearly that TJF is the only potentially effective fans' representative grouping for the purposes of receiving the shares. The Patrick Thistle Trust has also had no social media output since January 1st 2020, yes 28 months. Hardly engaging towards its members and nothing on PTFC site except who it’s trustees are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 I agree that the TJF is the best home for the shares. The problem is that it appears that no-one other than Low can define what constitutes a "Fit and Proper" home for the shares. Unless there is a legal/financial definition, and the TJF can comply with and enforce that, she can then choose to place the shares with the PTFC Trust (apologies for not naming this properly in my earlier post) to allow her to retain effective control. Fans have to cover all eventualities, and should seek control of the PTFC Trust, probably by callling for an Extraordinary Annual General Meeting to set up elections for new trusty trustees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 19 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: The Patrick Thistle Trust has also had no social media output since January 1st 2020, yes 28 months. Hardly engaging towards its members and nothing on PTFC site except who it’s trustees are It’s a small point to some people, perhaps, but the Club also gives a misleading impression about the Trust in the way it presents the information. It makes it look like the three co-opted “Supporters Trustees” run the PTFC Trust, and doesn’t acknowledge the Club CEO and two other Club appointed Directors are involved in its decision-making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 16 minutes ago, eljaggo said: I agree that the TJF is the best home for the shares. The problem is that it appears that no-one other than Low can define what constitutes a "Fit and Proper" home for the shares. Unless there is a legal/financial definition, and the TJF can comply with and enforce that, she can then choose to place the shares with the PTFC Trust (apologies for not naming this properly in my earlier post) to allow her to retain effective control. Fans have to cover all eventualities, and should seek control of the PTFC Trust, probably by callling for an Extraordinary Annual General Meeting to set up elections for new trusty trustees. This is where the corporate structure of the PTFC Trust is even worse though. There is no “annual general meeting” or “extraordinary general meeting” that can be called by beneficiaries for the purpose you’ve described. This organisation is not a body run by individuals elected by its members. It is a trust run by trustees, all of whom have been appointed, in effect, by the Club’s custodians. Beneficiaries don’t get to decide who any of the Director Trustees or co-opted members are. At all. That is in effect decided by whoever tells Gerry Britton what to do. Beneficiaries don’t get a vote in the decisions of the Trustees. They only get a vote in the elections for Supporters Trustees (3 of the 6), and that’s only if those elections are actually held. Which is in the gift of whoever tells Gerry Britton what to do. As a matter of basic corporate structure the PTFC Trust is a plaything of the Club’s custodians. That can only be fixed by: (a) convincing the Club’s custodians to change the PTFC Trust’s trust deed; or (b) changing the Club’s custodians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted April 24, 2022 Report Share Posted April 24, 2022 Then PTD is right, TJF is the only vehicle for fan ownership. Even if fans were able to elect three (fan) Trustees, any casting vote would presumably lie with Britton, who would have no choice but to do Low's bidding. The Financial Conduct Authority specifies a Fit and Proper person test for those seeking financially responsible posts, as do various charity umbrella groups. I'm not sure whether the Foundation could approach say the FCA and ask for "accreditation" via a test of key elected members. That doesn't of course force Low's hand, but would strengthen the Foundation's claim to the shares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 23 hours ago, stolenscone said: To be fair, the Club could do this as well. TJF position appears to be that the questions were not answered; the Club position is that full answers have been given but not passed on. If the latter is true, it would be a simple matter to bypass TJF and make the responses public to the supporters. With such an easy self help mechanism, it seems odd to accuse TJF of secrecy but not to make the information public themselves. They could but since they are not I’m at a loss as to why TJF don’t …..to put out the questions and the apparent non answers to their members would actually be helpful and the sort of thing they should have been doing ….I would prefer to judge this for myself than have someone decide for me and at no point did I accuse anyone of secrecy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 On 4/24/2022 at 11:04 AM, eljaggo said: Low blunted the demands for fan representation on the PTFC Board by appointing her choices from the Jags Trust. With three Trust directors still on both boards, and no elections for the Trust board for years, the Trust seems to all intents and purposes controlled by Low. No matter how many fans sign up for the Foundation, Low will ignore that, and simply persuade the executors of the Weir estate that his wishes can be met by giving the shares to the Trust as a "fit and proper" organisation. We should be giving the Trust as much attention as the Foundation and pressing for elections ASAP. I thought there were Two Trust Directors & One from " Thistle Forever" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 6 hours ago, javeajag said: They could but since they are not I’m at a loss as to why TJF don’t …..to put out the questions and the apparent non answers to their members would actually be helpful and the sort of thing they should have been doing ….I would prefer to judge this for myself than have someone decide for me and at no point did I accuse anyone of secrecy Could it be that TJF Directors entered NDA when negotiating with the Club - which would be standard practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 20 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: This is where the corporate structure of the PTFC Trust is even worse though. There is no “annual general meeting” or “extraordinary general meeting” that can be called by beneficiaries for the purpose you’ve described. This organisation is not a body run by individuals elected by its members. It is a trust run by trustees, all of whom have been appointed, in effect, by the Club’s custodians. Beneficiaries don’t get to decide who any of the Director Trustees or co-opted members are. At all. That is in effect decided by whoever tells Gerry Britton what to do. Beneficiaries don’t get a vote in the decisions of the Trustees. They only get a vote in the elections for Supporters Trustees (3 of the 6), and that’s only if those elections are actually held. Which is in the gift of whoever tells Gerry Britton what to do. As a matter of basic corporate structure the PTFC Trust is a plaything of the Club’s custodians. That can only be fixed by: (a) convincing the Club’s custodians to change the PTFC Trust’s trust deed; or (b) changing the Club’s custodians. If the PTFC Trust & any other "Fan" Directors are in disagreement with the Current position - they can step down from the Club Board - Collective Responsibility applies to Board Decisions - however they have the option to Resign- if they strongly disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: I thought there were Two Trust Directors & One from " Thistle Forever" ? So… This is a bit slippery. It was certainly the intention that, when appointed as Club Directors, Andrew Byron, Alan Caldwell and John Penman were there by virtue of their prior association with, respectively, the PTFC Trust (for the first two) and Thistle Forever (for the third). Thistle Forever obviously no longer exists, having been subsumed into The Working Group, which itself gave rise to The Jags Foundation. At that time, Byron and Caldwell were Supporters Trustees on the PTFC Trust, alongside a third supporter Trustee. They had been elected (I think?) in the 2018 Trust election. It was gently pointed out to Gerry Britton (a Director Trustee on behalf of the Club) at the time that Byron and Caldwell shouldn’t really be continuing as Supporters Trustees while also being Club Directors, as this brought about a clear conflict of interest and wasn’t what was intended under the Trust Deed. So very shortly thereafter, Three Black Cats’ solicitors drafted what’s known as a Deed of Assumption. It declared, with retrospective effect, that Byron and Caldwell had stepped down as Supporters Trustees and been appointed by the Club as Director Trustees to replace the outgoing David Beattie and one other. It then declared that several co-opted trustees, brought in by the existing trustees, would be deemed to be the new Supporters Trustees, instead of holding trustee elections to fill the newly vacant positions. It is my suspicion that, if you were to ask Byron, Caldwell, Penman or the Club Board, they will say that these three men are appointed to the Club Board in an individual capacity, and that the first two are appointed in their capacity as Club Directors to serve on the PTFC Trust as trustees. But such a legalistic attitude protests and proves too much. It reveals that, at present, despite fan groups owning about a quarter of the Club’s shares, and having been promised a further 55% by whatever suitable vehicle, there is actually no formal fan representation on the Club Board at all at present. The Club was quite careful when they were appointed not publicly to say they were “fan reps” though alluded to the new board bringing a range of “skills” to the fore. I would be interested to know why Byron, Caldwell and Penman think they are there, and what unique skills or experiences they bring to the running of the football club. Frankly, I don’t see any evidence since their appointment of fan engagement or representation, despite the common thread among them being to give the impression of Club engagement with fan organisations. Maybe I’m being unfair? I don’t think I am. Edited April 25, 2022 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muscat Jag Posted April 25, 2022 Report Share Posted April 25, 2022 The guys I go to the games aren't on the forum so they asked if I could submit their names as signatories to the statement. Would be grateful if you could add, Iain Carmichael Davie McGreagor Ian Liddell Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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