Player fund

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, ChiThistle said:

I agree with you but also would consider volunteerism to be a “handout” of time & labor in the same way you’re considering the 500k investment to be a financial handout.

Said better than I can put it.

The Club asking for volunteers isn't that far removed from the Club asking for donations. Time is money and all that.

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Yes, but the, ahem, previous incumbents did the opposite of this, eroding the margin of safety by spending significant six-figure sums of money in successive seasons that the Football Club did not have.

We start from the position that there was barely enough working capital to see-out the 2022-23 season.

We cannot build from there without capital injection, unless you intend for Thistle to go down to a third-tier budget and build cash reserves over literal decades before even being able to look at 2nd tier football again.

But you're ignoring here why the residual debts (i.e. the soft loans to directors) were needed last season. They were needed because the working capital had been exhausted by the financial performance of the Club in the 2022-23 season (which was itself a consequence of the budget set in the summer of 2022 and the Club's failure to deliver on its underlying assumptions).

The starting point in summer 2023 was that there wasn't enough working capital. So investment was needed to avoid a cashflow problem. Even with a break-even budget. Even if the Club were to run a small surplus!

No, this doesn't follow.

The investment ensures that at no point in the season do the cash reserves fall below £0, preventing the Club from meeting its short-term obligations. The actual amount of cash reserves at the end of the season depends entirely on the timing of different sources of income (for example).

So what your saying is that its not an Investment - its underwriting residual debt and we are in effect carrying on with the same levels of expenditure that got us in the position in the first place - therefore the £500K will eventually end up as zero 

which is pretty much my point - when it runs out - whats Plan B ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Said better than I can put it.

The Club asking for volunteers isn't that far removed from the Club asking for donations. Time is money and all that.

Not True -Volunteers can gain valuable experience that they can apply in other walks of life 

simply asking for Cash is a one way ticket 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, BowenBoys said:

Asking fans to contribute to the Players Fund = begging bowl

Relying on free labour to carry out necessary work = what?

 

Fans can gain experience that they can apply elsewhere plus they get to work as part of a Team 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

For the life of me, I am not sure how you can see free labour is a sustainable business model, but you are ok with it - but not with any other kind of donation.

The vast majority of Sports are run by Volunteers

one of Scotlands most successful sports - Athletics- is run by Volunteers on Multi Levels - as a Nation we churn out Work Class Athletes -Year in Year out ( we dont churn out World Class Football Players ) 

So your statement is incorrect - you can run a Club with unpaid Staff -and most Sports do just that -very successfully 

Volunteers get a reward of being part of something - its not comparable to “ handing over cash” which is the Club simply being lazy - it screams cant be arsed thinking of something - just hand us money 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, Jordanhill Jag said:

The vast majority of Sports are run by Volunteers

one of Scotlands most successful sports - Athletics- is run by Volunteers on Multi Levels - as a Nation we churn out Work Class Athletes -Year in Year out ( we dont churn out World Class Football Players ) 

So your statement is incorrect - you can run a Club with unpaid Staff -and most Sports do just that -very successfully 

Volunteers get a reward of being part of something - its not comparable to “ handing over cash” which is the Club simply being lazy - it screams cant be arsed thinking of something - just hand us money 

Thistle had a Young Guy doing Video Content as a Volunteer - his experience gained at Thistle - got him a paid job at Hearts 

 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

57 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So what your saying is that its not an Investment - its underwriting residual debt and we are in effect carrying on with the same levels of expenditure that got us in the position in the first place - therefore the £500K will eventually end up as zero 

which is pretty much my point - when it runs out - whats Plan B ? 

Except for the bit where I didn't say this at all.

You have completely ignored what I said and simply projected what you think is happening.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Woodstock Jag

[fenski]

If the money had already been spent and the club went to the fans looking for contributions , then I think it would be fair to say the club is relying handouts to balance the books. If the player's fund was required to pay the wages of the current squad to the end of the season, then it would be fair to say the club was relying on handouts to balance  the books. However that as far as I understand it is not the case. This is additional funding over and above current budget, a bonus if you like which might get us a slightly better quality player in the transfer window, than we otherwise would have had. And entirely voluntary. Don't have a clue how this can be portrayed as a bad thing.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Raising £ to the club via Players Fund etc is good IMHO

But am I right in thinking £ via The Jags Foundation goes further with tax purposes (no VAT is taken)??

[Jordanhill Jag]

53 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Except for the bit where I didn't say this at all.

You have completely ignored what I said and simply projected what you think is happening.

Not really - the reason you need working Capital is because of Residual Debt from last Year - which you stated 

my projection is that the Club is by and large continuing with the same spend level which is being funded by TJF & the USA cash which then runs out and we are in the same cycle 

[Jordanhill Jag]

21 minutes ago, fenski said:

If the money had already been spent and the club went to the fans looking for contributions , then I think it would be fair to say the club is relying handouts to balance the books. If the player's fund was required to pay the wages of the current squad to the end of the season, then it would be fair to say the club was relying on handouts to balance  the books. However that as far as I understand it is not the case. This is additional funding over and above current budget, a bonus if you like which might get us a slightly better quality player in the transfer window, than we otherwise would have had. And entirely voluntary. Don't have a clue how this can be portrayed as a bad thing.

You cannot Ringfence Funding its simply Revenue - so we have no idea what its funding 

[ChiThistle]

3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Fans can gain experience that they can apply elsewhere plus they get to work as part of a Team 

So…..you’re saying that volunteerism is not a begging bowl….because the labor isn’t 100% free….because we are paying the fans in work experience……for things like selling match programmes (trying out this UK spelling 😃) and applying a fresh coat of paint to the stairs?

As my wife said to me when I chose Wham’s “Freedom” for my karaoke, “that seems like a reach.”

[Norgethistle]

10 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Stretching it a bit - we have always run the Club - until recently using a large % of Volunteers 

 

This hasn’t changed, the club still relies heavily on volunteers, from office staff to matchday staff to media team.

[fenski]

12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

You cannot Ringfence Funding its simply Revenue - so we have no idea what its funding 

So any statement by club saying funds raised go straight in to player budget is misleading at best??

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, fenski said:

So any statement by club saying funds raised go straight in to player budget is misleading at best??

Its impossible to separate income into separate funds in the Accounts   

[Jordanhill Jag]

9 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

This hasn’t changed, the club still relies heavily on volunteers, from office staff to matchday staff to media team.

We have significantly higher staff numbers when we were previously in the Championship 

[Jordanhill Jag]

13 hours ago, ChiThistle said:

So…..you’re saying that volunteerism is not a begging bowl….because the labor isn’t 100% free….because we are paying the fans in work experience……for things like selling match programmes (trying out this UK spelling 😃) and applying a fresh coat of paint to the stairs?

As my wife said to me when I chose Wham’s “Freedom” for my karaoke, “that seems like a reach.”

We had a Volunteer recently who looked after various aspects of Video Clips etc - through his experience gained at Thistle he got a full time job in Football 

[ChiThistle]

30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We had a Volunteer recently who looked after various aspects of Video Clips etc - through his experience gained at Thistle he got a full time job in Football 

Fair enough.  But what about the volunteers who help provide a fresh coat of paint in the summer so we don’t have to pay maintenance people to do it?  Or the ones who help out on match days?

I think it’s very clear that we rely to some extent on free labor where people AREN’T getting paid in work experience.

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We have significantly higher staff numbers when we were previously in the Championship 

Not paid staff members or full time staff numbers we don’t 

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Not paid staff members or full time staff numbers we don’t 

Actually you do

[Jordanhill Jag]

6 hours ago, ChiThistle said:

Fair enough.  But what about the volunteers who help provide a fresh coat of paint in the summer so we don’t have to pay maintenance people to do it?  Or the ones who help out on match days?

I think it’s very clear that we rely to some extent on free labor where people AREN’T getting paid in work experience.

Different people will Volunteer for different reasons - all Sports outside Football & Rugby are Run by Volunteers -and in numerous instances produce World Class Sports People - are you suggesting that say Athletics is “ Free Labour” for those involved in Coaching etc 

Sport can be run to the Highest Standards by people not being paid - its the standards that are set - not the payment that matters 

[ChiThistle]

4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Different people will Volunteer for different reasons - all Sports outside Football & Rugby are Run by Volunteers -and in numerous instances produce World Class Sports People - are you suggesting that say Athletics is “ Free Labour” for those involved in Coaching etc 

Sport can be run to the Highest Standards by people not being paid - its the standards that are set - not the payment that matters 

I’m not debating standards or saying we should not use volunteers or that volunteers can’t do quality work.

What I am saying is that volunteerism is labor that you don’t have to put on your balance sheet.  There are no wages, no benefits.  It is free labor.  The club, to an extent, relies on this free labor.

The free labor, to an extent, allows the club to extend its staff beyond what it can do with its own finances….

…in the same manner that the 500k cash influx allows the club to extend its margin of safety beyond what it can do with its own finances…

…and in the same manner that TJF is providing funds to the club beyond what it is making through normal trading.

You’re making the point that the investment and TJF funding are handouts.  I don’t disagree.  But I argue that volunteerism is a handout - just one you happen to find more acceptable.

 

[JeanieD]

Personally I feel that volunteering gives me a bigger "buzz" (to coin an old phrase much in vogue when I was young/less old)  than donating - but there again that might suggest that volunteering for me is more self-seeking than it maybe should be!!!!!

Perhaps there really is no such thing as altruism.

[Jordanhill Jag]

13 hours ago, ChiThistle said:

I’m not debating standards or saying we should not use volunteers or that volunteers can’t do quality work.

What I am saying is that volunteerism is labor that you don’t have to put on your balance sheet.  There are no wages, no benefits.  It is free labor.  The club, to an extent, relies on this free labor.

The free labor, to an extent, allows the club to extend its staff beyond what it can do with its own finances….

…in the same manner that the 500k cash influx allows the club to extend its margin of safety beyond what it can do with its own finances…

…and in the same manner that TJF is providing funds to the club beyond what it is making through normal trading.

You’re making the point that the investment and TJF funding are handouts.  I don’t disagree.  But I argue that volunteerism is a handout - just one you happen to find more acceptable.

 

The issue with the £500K & TJF money is that they can be pulled - and we have found this in the past - which then exposes the Club on Cashflow 

having an balanced budget with a low overhead means we are sustainable 

volunteers exist in every aspect of Sport - there are rewards which are non cash to the people doing it - its not as simplistic as “ Free Labour “ 

[Fawlty Towers]

If we were just doing £5 per post on this topic we would be putting a bid in for Mbappe!

Anyway, nothing fancy from me (a former volunteer). If you are in broad agreement with the idea of a players fund and can afford a donation then here is how to do it (and "thank you"):

https://ptfc.co.uk/fans/players-fund/

If you don't agree with it that is fine also,  I think we are still allowed to disagree these days (unless of course you think Star Wars is better than Star Trek in which case you are dead to me).