Lets Try Mukendi And Doolen Together!

[allyo]

Rarely (certainly up until a few weeks ago) have I seen so much rubbish on the one thread. Discussing other managers is a joke. I'm not even convinced that the criticism is valid. Most people reckon that our best two players this season have been Archie signings, and after yesterday it seems that Gabriel might turn out fine too.

All this insistence that we need a plan B and to change the system is all very well, but we have players who were successful all last season and for the first months of this season playing a system that we all loved watching, and I'm happy if Archie is prepared to try sticking with it despite a few heavy defeats. As has been said, of our last six games five of them have been against top five teams, and that top five seems to be out in front of the rest this season. It's not time to throw everything away.

Edited December 2, 2013 by allyo

[Jaggernaut]

Osbourne was supposed to be marking Considine (as he was for later corners) but there was a spare player in the box unmarked, Cragen pointed Osbourne towards said player & Craigen market Considine. That certainly wasn't Archie's fault & something that probably happens at every corner, just unluckily it may have contributed to us losing a goal.

 

I mentioned in an earlier post somewhere that Aberdeen's tactic at corners was the same every time: a big guy right on the goal line at the near post, then just before the ball comes over he birled round right into the goal, ran across the back and then out of the goal again. His marker followed him, and the whole thing was definitely a distraction for Fox and other defenders. It got me thinking: is a player allowed to leave the field of play at will (as their player did each time he ran into the goal), and/or is the goal itself considered outside the field of play?

[The Cup]

There certainly seems to be a stubborn refusal to shift from the lone striker notion, which hasn't been working now for a couple of months. (Even our winner at ICT was only due to an unexpected blunder by their keeper.) The novelty factor has now gone from our game, and we need to try different formations and tactics.

 

Agreed. Doolan recently has been miles away from any form of support. Even when he gets it he has no one to play it to.

For Doolan's first against ICT we had decent options in the box.

 

A lot of the players look completely devoid of confidence now Balatoni in particular.

[Third Lanark]

 

 

Leveins ambition when he took over the Hearts job was 3^rd place that in layman’s terms is no ambition at all.

 

Ferguson when he took on East Stirling was to win and retain the European cup

 

Ambition is to be the best not an also ran.. Levein has only got one thing and that’s a good press agent.

 

Archie’s the man, don’t panic, the defence is no worse than the rest of the league, we just need a big striker. Chase Kerr & Baird and give a verbal warning to Craigen for not doing his job and get back to using the wingers, if ATS is reneging on signing then a replacement must be found. One touch is all well and good but the ball must move forward quicker and the shots must be harder.

 

If stupid names are going to be pulled out the hat how about Alex Ferguson he’s doing hee haw just now

While like you I am happy to back Archie your comments about Baird are as daft as the ones others have said about getting in Levein. Baird has had 2 SPL starts one where he ran St Mirren ragged and the other where he played poorly against Aberdeen but the whole team was awful that day. He deserves a run out for 4-5 games while perhaps certain others deserve dropped, but hey dont lets stop you using him as scapegoat for our results the last few weeks.

[Third Lanark]

Likewise Levein? Bit of a silly point you're making there. Also, Hearts and Dundee United are far more suitable and relevant examples of why there would be a strong chance of him being a success at Partick Thistle if he ever became interested in the job. See above example of Derek McInnes as to why stints at English Championship disaster clubs like Leicester and Bristol City are not necessarily indicative of any potential to succeed in Scotland. Imagine for a moment there was a vacancy at Thistle currently: would people really be opposed to Levein?

There is no vacancy at Firhill so dont see the point in bringing it up.

[brick_top]

There seems to be a notion that if we change our formation at all then it will drastically alter our style of play at the same time. I find this a bit strange really. Our players are still the same type of players, and unless specifically instructed to pump it long by Archie, which I very much doubt, then our style of football should largely remain unchanged.

 

For what it's worth, I think Archie has given enough to this club that he should be allowed a more than reasonable amount of time to turn this around, with our full support. That doesn't mean he's excempt from criticism, but ffs keep the stupid talk like Avril Levien out of it. Jeez, that idiot brought my country to it's knees, I don't want him even getting the chance to do it to my club!

[Noel Edmonds]

There is no vacancy at Firhill so dont see the point in bringing it up.

But signs are showing that there very possibly could be a time where there will be, and the general air of happy-clapping and defending Archibald at all costs is pretty worrying.

[Noel Edmonds]

People who generally/stubbornly fail to tell the difference between club and international football = stoaters.

[potty trained]

But signs are showing that there very possibly could be a time where there will be, and the general air of happy-clapping and defending Archibald at all costs is pretty worrying.

 

I find it highly unlikely that Archie would be sacked, regardless of results.

[Willjag]

Hearts and Dundee United are far more suitable comparisons, obviously.

 

I only mentioned Leicester because of this statement........

 

His club career in management only reads success,

[Noel Edmonds]

I find it highly unlikely that Archie would be sacked, regardless of results.

Which is what I fear the problem could be.

[potty trained]

Where as it's one of the few things I admire our board for.

 

It's a real pity that folk are considering our manager be sacked during the first poor spell of his career.

 

 

[Noel Edmonds]

Where as it's one of the few things I admire our board for.

Which is exactly the type of happy-clapping ethos that would see us follow the plight of current second-tier dross clubs like Falkirk and Hamilton. I am currently in support of Archibald, but I think the next month is very important to him. If we were to suffer a horrendous run of results on the back of similar lightweight performances as we've been putting forward recently, then this happy-clapping and refusal to change becomes all the more dangerous.

[potty trained]

Which is exactly the type of happy-clapping ethos that would see us follow the plight of current second-tier dross clubs like Falkirk and Hamilton. I am currently in support of Archibald, but I think the next month is very important to him. If we were to suffer a horrendous run of results on the back of similar lightweight performances as we've been putting forward recently, then this happy-clapping and refusal to change becomes all the more dangerous.

 

Define refusal to change, would you.

 

On Sunday he played a more defensive minded 4-4-1-1 and you could put a very strong case forward to say that we played none of the football we have been credited for and set up to defend defend defend.

 

2 major changes that saw us only lose 1-0 to a poorly defended set piece.

 

 

I take great pleasure in being called a happy clapper during Archie's era, sort of backs up I was called a boo boy during the DC era.

Edited December 2, 2013 by potty trained

[ClydebankJag]

"Second-tier dross clubs like Falkirk and Hamilton" - Christ aren't we a billy big time? Clubs like that have outperformed us regularly over the last 20 years. They both have established youth structures that are far better than us. They both will likely finish above us in the next 5 seasons. But of course to you they are "dross clubs".

 

It takes time (and no little money) to put in place a structure that delivers regular achievement like ICT/St Johnstone are currently capable of. That however doesn't mean that those clubs will not fall back into Div 1 in the future (ICT did just that a few seasons ago). The fans of those clubs had to show patience, so do we.

 

I personally will applaud our board if they stick with the manager - as long as the manager is showing signs of growing and developing - I believe that will be better for the long-term future of our club than yet another managerial change. I hold that view even of we were to go back down this season.

[Noel Edmonds]

Define refusal to change, would you.

 

On Sunday he played a more defensive minded 4-4-1-1 and you could put a very strong case forward to say that we played none of the football we have been credited for and set up to defend defend defend.

 

2 major changes that saw us only lose 1-0 to a poorly defended set piece.

By 'refusal to change' I meant with regard to changing manager. If we continue to stagnate in line with our current results and performances through until January then I believe refusal to change would be harmful to the club. Also, despite the shift in tactics some of the team selection was farcical and we still suffered the same old issues of getting our arses felt at corners and barely managing to register any clear goalscoring opportunities. The next month needs to see improvement from this.

[Noel Edmonds]

"Second-tier dross clubs like Falkirk and Hamilton" - Christ aren't we a billy big time? Clubs like that have outperformed us regularly over the last 20 years. They both have established youth structures that are far better than us. They both will likely finish above us in the next 5 seasons. But of course to you they are "dross clubs".

 

It takes time (and no little money) to put in place a structure that delivers regular achievement like ICT/St Johnstone are currently capable of. That however doesn't mean that those clubs will not fall back into Div 1 in the future (ICT did just that a few seasons ago). The fans of those clubs had to show patience, so do we.

 

I personally will applaud our board if they stick with the manager - as long as the manager is showing signs of growing and developing - I believe that will be better for the long-term future of our club than yet another managerial change. I hold that view even of we were to go back down this season.

 

^^^ Shining example of the ethos I am criticising.

 

 

"Second-tier dross clubs like Falkirk and Hamilton" - Christ aren't we a billy big time? Clubs like that have outperformed us regularly over the last 20 years. They both have established youth structures that are far better than us. They both will likely finish above us in the next 5 seasons. But of course to you they are "dross clubs".

 

Firstly, they haven't regularly outperformed us. They comfortably fall into the 'dross club' category because they, like yourself, have shown an incredible lack of ambition by basking in the vanity of overloading their first teams with mostly bog-standard youth players. As such, they have been rotting away in the middle of the First Division for the last few seasons, which is something I personally would rather we didn't go back to. Also, what precisely leads you to believe they will 'likely finish above us in the next 5 seasons'? Are they bigger clubs than ourselves? Don't you foresee us being successful in the Premiership? If not, why not?

 

It takes time (and no little money) to put in place a structure that delivers regular achievement like ICT/St Johnstone are currently capable of. That however doesn't mean that those clubs will not fall back into Div 1 in the future (ICT did just that a few seasons ago). The fans of those clubs had to show patience, so do we.

 

Of course it takes time, and I am willing to show patience. But both these clubs were in a similar (if not an even more disadvantageous) position to ourselves when they began their journey in this league. If an opportunity came which allowed us to evolve as a club, such as a high profile manager with a vast pedigree of sucess at this level becoming available to us, it would be foolish not to take it through sheer blind loyalty/happy-clapping. Caley and St Johnstone are about as likely to be relegated as, say, Motherwell are (ie, highly unlikely) such has been their recent improvement. This is a level which I feel is realistic in the medium-long term for Thistle, and I would rather see us aim for such levels as opposed to resigning ourselves to the level we've just come from as you are doing.

 

 

I personally will applaud our board if they stick with the manager - as long as the manager is showing signs of growing and developing - I believe that will be better for the long-term future of our club than yet another managerial change. I hold that view even of we were to go back down this season.

 

Relegation = better for long-term future of the club and shows signs of growing and developing. Top logic.

[potty trained]

I used to say, in the Campbell era, I would take us playing attacking, ball on the deck, entertaining football, bringing through youths, if it meant finishing 2nd every year in the first... Or finishing top and refusing the invite to the SPL.

 

Then we go up to the SPL doing exactly that...

 

Now I want us to stay in the top league, doing all of the above...

 

But, If we go down, we go down, such is life... I'm 37 and have followed Thistle religiously for 25 years. I think I've watched enough dross in that time to demand we keep the above ethos for as long as possible... Do that, and it's a pleasure to be there and I couldn't care if we are in the premiership or championship, as long as we are doing it.

 

[yokerjag]

does playing 2 up front instead of one mean we stop playing attractive football?

[potty trained]

does playing 2 up front instead of one mean we stop playing attractive football?

 

Don't think so.

 

But as we are throwing plaudits at the reserves for matching the first team formation... Does that mean they'd need to change, too?

[silvershadow]

Playing two up front does not require both strikers to sit on the last defender.We could easily play with one sitting midfielder instead of two and have the second striker drop into midfield when we do not have the ball.We have the players to do this and it would not effect our present style of play.

[Lenziejag]

How about actually given Baird and Doolan a chance to play together first. Something that quite frankly I cannot believe has been tried out in the last few weeks given how clearly obvious it is to everyone that one striker up front on his own is not working.

 

Apart from the fact that Baird is a Thistle player and Mukendi is on a loan deal, what is the merit in playing Baird/Doolan compared to Mukendi/Doolan. Don't take this comment as Baird bashing as I don't think either of them have been given enough of a chance to establish themselves.

[Lenziejag]

I think it's dangerous to staunchly defend Archibald at all costs purely due to his legendary status at the club, because there are some very valid criticisms of him just now. I'm happy to give him the next month to improve our current downturn and show that he does have some ideas, but if it became clear that a revolutionary appointment like Craig Levein would be willing to work for us, we should take that chance immediately. it could be the difference between us being a short 1-2 year visitor to the top flight or an every-season regular like St Johnstone or ICT who are now in top 6 territory.

 

At the moment. It wasn't that long ago that Killie were top 6. We need to wait and see how ICT get on without Butcher.

 

Archie hasn't been a manager for a year yet. He who can't be mentioned took a while to get to grips with management. You need to give new managers a chance.

[Garscube Road End]

In regards to some comments about the team selection on Sunday, it seems to have been missed that we had SIX first team players out. Most squads in this league would suffer from that. I don't think Archie had a lot of choice to who he picked.

[Paulo]

Jeez this thread is both funny and horrendous. Same old Thistle forums though, during a run of bad form it's difficult to pick out the wind-up merchants from the genuinely daft.

 

Being a Jags fan, I'd have thought most of you would remember us playing terribly at one point or another. We're on a bad run right now, but this is so far from the bottom of the barrel.