potty trained Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Many of you will be aware of my stated position when it comes to our singing section being moved from the North Stand for the Celtic game. It threw up a lot of questions that never got answered, but it also provided answers that just seemed bizarre. Back in June it became apparent that our singing section would be moved for Celtic games, no others, just Celtic games. Regardless of any other fans having a history of using flares, it was deemed that only Celtic fans posed a threat to other fans health & safety. Word spread like wild fire after the decision was fed out through the office staff when folk purchased their season tickets, mixed messages, but nothing official. it was with that in mind, our Chairman, David Beattie took to the national press and club website to clarify the situation. The Daily Record, Evening Times, Scotsman and Herald all ran very similar stories with very similar quotes: June 13 http://www.dailyreco...fe-says-1977542 There was a story that Id banned Celtic fans from our main stand because theyd let off flares in the Glasgow Cup final, but I didnt single out Celtic. It was decided, after consultation with the police, that away fans of all teams would be better off out of the main stand because its a wooden construction. Its a health and safety issue and I have a duty of care to everyone inside Firhill. http://www.eveningti...27758n.21371272 Thistle took the controversial decision to ensure they received a Safety Certificate for the ground ahead of their return to Scotland's top flight next season. http://ptfc.co.uk/ne...ion_next_season "If the Glasgow Council Safety Team make this a condition for granting a safety certificate for the stadium we have no option but to comply." "Unfortunately events overtook that consultation process as the timings around the renewal of the Safety Certificate meant that a strict segregation policy which banned Celtic Supporters from the Main Stand was enforced. In essence this left the Club with a Fait Accompli regards moving our own fans." "We share our fans frustration that due to elements out with our own control we are required to move our fans from the North Stand" http://www.scotsman....-move-1-2970921 The renewal of the Safety Certificate meant that a strict segregation policy which banned Celtic supporters from the Main Stand was enforced. In essence this left the Club with a Fait Accompli regards moving our own fans. October 13 http://www.eveningti...40083n.22478744 "It is a duty of care... But, if we are advised by a safety team, we have to listen. We were advised to take this course of action by the safety team and we have followed through with that and made the decision... The safety and well-being of everyone inside Firhill is of paramount importance." "If we were given the same advice for any other games, we would do the same thing." It was with that in mind that i contacted the Council under the Freedom of Information Act (Scotland) 2002, to find out just what is the case, when it comes to our stadium's general safety certificate being issued. i requested a copy of the safety certificate itself, and minutes of the safety teams meetings, seeking clarification around the guidelines and conditions with which it was granted. At first my request for the general safety certificate was denied due to the nature of the information contained within specific parts. i totally accept that as it provides plans etc i believe and that sort of information could be misused in the wrong hands, a major security issue. However, i was given permission to appeal, which i did. i stated that i was a Partick Thistle fan and i was seaking specific information around the granting of the certificate, any conditions that had to be met to allow it to be issued, that would not allow celtic fans to use the main stand etc due to information our Chairman had out out in the press, i was quite clear in my appeal, and the specific information i needed and why i needed it.. i received a reply stating they would accept my appeal and review it and get back to me. They did. For clarification, this is how the council describe the safety team mentioned above by David Beattie in his quotes: The Safety Advisory Group comprises partners from the Council’s Building Control & Public Safety and Licensing sections as well as Strathclyde Police, Strathclyde Fire & Rescue and the Scottish Ambulance Service. The primary role of the Safety Advisory Group is to provide advice and guidance to a football club’s safety management team on accommodating spectators safely within their stadium including advice and guidance on sensitive issues such as spectator ingress and egress, crowd management, fire safety, personal security, anti-terrorism procedures etc. The Safety Advisory Group is also responsible for issuing the stadia with General and Special Safety Certificates under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975. So as can be seen, in the description, the police would provide advice and guidance as part of their role sitting on the safety team... However, it's the following that i found most important: I can however advise that there is no condition to the General Safety Certificate that is in place for Firhill Stadium that prevents Celtic fans or any fans being housed in a particular stand within the stadium. Now, if it had been down to a condition of the granting of the safety certificate, i would accept that. if it was for all fans who have a history of letting off flares, i would accept that too... but it wasn't, we were led to believe that it was for Celtic fans only, as if Celtic's flares are more dangerous than other teams. At the Kilmarnock game, when Killie scored they let off a flare in our "wooden clad" main stand. The Motherwell fans who have been involved in two incidents of letting off flares at St Mirren and New Douglas Park this season, that saw heavy police involvement were housed in the main stand... they would let off "flash bangs" at the recent game. Now i understand that some can say the decision to move Celtic fans was proved right, they let off 3 flares directly behind the goal in the first few rows of the stand.. But would they have done it in the main stand knowing the concerns? Maybe. Would it have been an issue if they had? who knows... this is a stand which has a wooden floor, its not "wood clad" as this board describe it, or a "wooden stand" as our old board described it. it has a wood floor which has been treated year after year with a fire retardent coating, the very wooden floor that you used to be able to smoke in, that men would knock their pipes out onto. surely regardless of how a fire starts, lit match or flare, if there is a potential for the floor to be set a light, it doesn't get a safety certificate... it has a safety certificate and for clarification it would seem our Chairman was mistaken, as confirmed by the Council: ...there is no condition to the General Safety Certificate that is in place for Firhill Stadium that prevents Celtic fans or any fans being housed in a particular stand within the stadium. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunnylaw Jag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Excellent post. I don't know what else to add to be honest it speaks for itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I can however advise that there is no condition to the General Safety Certificate that is in place for Firhill Stadium that prevents Celtic fans or any fans being housed in a particular stand within the stadium. ...there is no condition to the General Safety Certificate that is in place for Firhill Stadium that prevents Celtic fans or any fans being housed in a particular stand within the stadium. what a surprise. i really never foresaw that coming. eta: good work pt. gold star for your endeavours and persistence. i'd give you a 'like' on your post for these factors, but won't ..... as i don't like the end result of the apparent incompetence and inability of some in new club ties and blazers to understand how to properly speak for, and represent our club (to call it a mistake as opposed to incompetence is being too kind) that besets our club on many occassions ..... or the potentially worse scenario of the thistle support (and wider footballing and non footballing general public) being (either by accident, or a sadder intention) misled and given false information. again. yet another in a seemingly growing list of counter statements, gaffes, own goals, firefighting and missed positive pr and revenue opportunities. and that saddens me. Edited January 9, 2014 by yoda-jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted January 9, 2014 Members Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Just as an aside in case anyone is tempted to throw around certain terms or phrases, be very careful about what you say. It's not unknown for legal action to be threatened in some of these situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 All I would say is that somebody has either been wrongly informed or has been lying (or confabulating), perhaps both. And I don't think it's the original poster of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrD Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 well done potty trained in getting that info out of it. have to say always found the usage of the word 'if' by partick thistle in that statement a bit iffy. now it seems that it definately was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'd rather have the money from the Celtic fans so we can buy better players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAISLEY-JAG Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Well done on investing the time into this to get the info! It seems then the only possible explaination the board have is ticket sales. I know the NS is smaller than the Main but they got a big chunk of the JHS too with they big barriers being fitted. That total must be a good deal bigger than the Main Stand? Also dont forget hibs when talking about flares they seem to like them too. PT, did they just answer your questions directly in the response or also make certain sections of the safety certificate available for you to view? Also were any minutes of the meeting made available at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunnylaw Jag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'd rather have the money from the Celtic fans so we can buy better players. We all would but we would have preferred for the board to come and out say, " rather than have a 1000 empty seats in the north stand and to make segregation easier we are going to allow Celtic fans the use of the North stand and maximise our profit for the day. We do apologise to those fans in the North stand who have helped create a great atmosphere at Firhill over the last year but hope they would understand that to increase the finance available to Archie in the January window this is in the best interest of the club" or something similar. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Potty Trained? Have you or do you seek to gain clarification of the above listed points from the Partick Thistle FC board?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'd rather have the money from the Celtic fans so we can buy better players. I am sure PT would as well, but he and others would be far more accepting if the explanations weren't so open to interpretation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I need to say at the outset that I am not in anyway defending the BOD for the decisions they made. However, sometimes "advice and guidance" from a professional body is simply a way for them to protect themselves. Usually there are different options that have consequences. For example, the official line from GDC may be that there are no restrictions from housing Celtic followers in the main stand. But offline discussions with the police may have indicated that if there were, then the policing costs would have been much higher. I have no way of knowing if this is the case, but maybe worth considering when reading the official line. Edited January 9, 2014 by Lenziejag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) If GGC advise Thistle, or any other Club, not to house supporters of a certain team in a certain stand but Thistle/AN Other United choose to ignore that advice and an incident does occer what then happens? Would the Borad of that club then potentially face criminal proceedings? Potential litigation? Don't have answers to any of those questions btw. Edited January 9, 2014 by Tom Hosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Following on from my earlier post I've had correspondence from someone who is very familiar with the procedure for granting a safety certificate. They are not presently connected with Partick Thistle. Clubs used to be instructed on what procedures they had to perform to be granted their Safety Certificate. They are now 'merely' advised. It does appear though that being advised in these circumstances is akin to being advised to hand over your wallet when someone is pointing a gun at your head. You ignore that advice at your own peril. In respect to football stadia ignoring the advice would, I'm told, leave the Board of Directors open to possible criminal charges including corporate homicide were there to be a fatality. GGC, may, be being a little disingenous when they say that there is no specifc condition re Celtic fans when issuing a safety certificate. Their advice may, and again just may, have been very different. Edited January 9, 2014 by Tom Hosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 We all would but we would have preferred for the board to come and out say, " rather than have a 1000 empty seats in the north stand and to make segregation easier we are going to allow Celtic fans the use of the North stand and maximise our profit for the day. We do apologise to those fans in the North stand who have helped create a great atmosphere at Firhill over the last year but hope they would understand that to increase the finance available to Archie in the January window this is in the best interest of the club" or something similar. Spot on. And good work potty trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wragg Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Good work PT, but also fair enough points raised by Tom Hosie. Clarification from the BOD would be nice, especially as to why Motherwell, with a recent history of pyro abuse, were housed in the main stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted January 9, 2014 Members Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Understand what you are saying Tom, however, GCC would need proof that they advised PTFC not to house Celtic fans in that stand. According to PT they haven't got it "in writing" so I don't think they would have a leg to stand on. FWIW, I don't think David Beattie has been deliberately untruthful about this. I suspect it's more likely he's been misinformed or picked up what he's been told wrongly. I'd imagine running a Football Club is not something you could do single handed particularly when you have a business to run. I understand he has a holiday home abroad and was likely to have been away from home round about the time this was all happening. I think he's also been recovering from a serious illness in the past couple of years. All things that point to him just being a spokesman for the Club whilst others make decisions and then inform him/ask him for his input. I'm not sure if he is the Chairman of the Club as the official site doesn't indicate this, I imagine decisions are made by the vote rather than one person holding all the power in any case. There are lots of unknowns here although it doesn't look good from the Club's end. Better communication would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Good work PT, but also fair enough points raised by Tom Hosie. Clarification from the BOD would be nice, especially as to why Motherwell, with a recent history of pyro abuse, were housed in the main stand. Please, no. They don't do clarification, just dig deeper holes. Good points from Willjag. To broaden that too many decisions (or often more correctly indecisions) recently have all the hallmarks of emanating from a committee. Previously Board/Club statements appeared more decisive. Not always what I'd agree with but without all the dithering. I suspect delegation and/or chain of command is more than a tad faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scamps Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) If we take GGC at there word that leaves the question of segregation. If the police didn't want Celtic fans split between the main stand and a chunk of the JHS...and stated Thistle could not do it, then fair is fair. Personally would just have given them the main stand in that case but I'd cut my nose off to spite my face, think the board would be failing in their duties if they done that. Here's the thing tho, Celtic fans coming out of the JHS would be coming out a different way to fans in the north stand. The fans in the northy would be coming straight out into the throng coming out of the main stand...as happened, didn't it (Was in the JHS so not sure)? Thistle fans from the main stand mixing with Celtic fans from the northy...so why couldn't that have been reversed? That's why I have doubts over the police stating segregation would be an issue. So if the club misled us on that one, especially if we now consider the paltry number of tickets we got for parkhead, then we as fans have every right to feel very let down. A lot of ifs in that lot tho. Edited January 9, 2014 by Scamps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Tom Hosie makes very valid points. Even aside from issues around potential litigation if something went wrong, are some people niave enough to think that advice and guidance from police and council is limited to very formal legal advice in minuted meetings. Ofcourse not, discussions would take place and decisions made - sometimes the right ones and sometimes the wrong ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Tom Hosie makes very valid points. Even aside from issues around potential litigation if something went wrong, are some people niave enough to think that advice and guidance from police and council is limited to very formal legal advice in minuted meetings. Ofcourse not, discussions would take place and decisions made - sometimes the right ones and sometimes the wrong ones. hiya david, hiya pal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptfc87 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) . Edited January 10, 2014 by ptfc87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Potty trained please for the love of any god that may be above us get a f*cking life Must have took real courage to come out and write that under an anonymous name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel G Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 The lengths some people go to shit stir obviously knows no bounds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 The lengths some people go to shit stir obviously knows no bounds. Well if we'd stated from the start it was to maximize revenue instead of stating Celtic weren't allowed in the main stand by the council there would be no shit to stir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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