ian_mac Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 You said 24K was waiting to get paid well maybe not. Perhaps people with be put off by the poor communication and disorganisation that now surrounds TAG and who would blame them? If you had read the whole thread and/or the report on the website you would realise that this point has well and truly been made. Thanks for clarifying though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Have read all the arguments and counter arguments, also read the outline of the TAG meeting on the website. Unless I'm picking it up wrong said they were looking for 5000 participants, not entirely sure where these 5000 supporters are coming from.think we've about 1000/1200 season tickets who would automatically get the Core package of TAG ( some of them I'm sure would go on to the Upgrade version ) where are we going to get the other 3500 participants ? Not sure if the 5000 participants is to make it commercially viable or what the break even membership is on it . Unfortunately though I see some merit in the TAG scheme, I think any scheme should include every supporter, if they can afford to upgrade absolutely fine but probably to disengage about half the support is total folly. No one has ever said we need 5000 Members to make TAG commercially viable - the figure of 5000 is to ensure we have a sustainable Club which can regularly play in Europe - for far too long our Supporters have had there expectations managed downwards - we should be a Club with ambition - we are based in Glasgow with a massive potential catchement area for Supporters - TAG ensures we get give everyone who calls themselves a Jags Fan a chance to be connected to the Club - for varying reasons - distance - Family or Work - Cost Fans cannot be Season Ticket Holders TAG allows all of our support to be an integral part of PTFC - as for numbers - 1500 Season Ticket Holders - 900 Under 16 Season Ticket Holders - who progressively will become TAG Members - Facbook Stats over 200 Fans living in England - you can safely say another 200 living abroad - our target should be 500 "Nomads" - most Fans who live a distance are desperate to have a proper connection to there Club - obviuosly we have a long long way to go - but to suggest we can never achieve the numbers or that it will disengage half the support has to have some sort of basis in fact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little_miss_jag Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 If you had read the whole thread and/or the report on the website you would realise that this point has well and truly been made. Thanks for clarifying though Sorry I don't have all the time in the world to read every patronising post you make. Do you always need to jump in for PT? Can he not have a discussion with someone without you jumping in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 With that in mind, Tag should have some level of basic registration, without the benefits of Tag Core or Plus, free of charge. Perhaps it would just mean being put on an e-mailing list or acces to an on-line forum similar to this, but would serve as a statistics gathering and maketing tool for the club and help make them feel a little more "connected". Would that not be signing up to the federation? Which means you are connected to the club, don't pay anything, and don't receive any TAG benefits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'm not against the "Tag" concept or proposed subscription. But, it is still just that, concept and proposals marketed and sold without even the basic infrastucture in place. It has clearly been poorly thought out from the start. Cost and workload admitted to have been underestimated and, I would suggest real demand overestimated. Goodwill and confidence has certainly been damaged and understanding of what the scheme actually provides, and what non-members might be missing out on or even loosing is vague. I am surprised that what appears to be from the club's website report another rallying call that there is now strong determination from the club to make it suceed and if we all support it, it'll work, has seemed to have convinced some folks that this project is worthwhile or even essential. It is remarkable, and to their credit that the board have finally turned the club around and have reportedly got it running on sustainable financial basis. However, is a club with a small budget well advised to attempt "unique" and "ground breaking" commercial projects, with little or no experience of the field and which have revealed unforseen costs prior proper implementation? would you equate tag to being asked to take a leap of faith on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 PTFC - as for numbers - 1500 Season Ticket Holders - 900 Under 16 Season Ticket Holders not too shabby. could (should) be better, but higher than i understood we had this season. to ensure we have a sustainable Club which can regularly play in Europe - for far too long our Supporters have had there expectations managed downwards - we should be a Club with ambition - we are based in Glasgow with a massive potential catchement area for Supporters 2021 champions league winners jim. written in the constellations agree completely about rest of the above. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 John Lambie Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'll be honest & say I'm not really sure if TAG will work or attract the members it is hoped it will. I hope it will, & I will happily sign up to it. Apart from the supporters federation thing, which I don't think the majority will be too fussed about, I don't see how it is much different to the CF. I think a properly marketed & advertised CF could/should make far more money & have far more members than it currently does, I would have put more weight behind that or re-launched that with some additional benefits. Realistically if TAG & CF run side by side, the CF will not get any new members, existing members will gradually withdraw & it will end up being a loss maker or being withdrawn before it reaches that stage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) would you equate tag to being asked to take a leap of faith on it? Given the scheme's history and still no clear evidence that it's potentially either commercially profitable or administratively viable...? To quote from the meeting report "The TAG scheme is seen as a vehicle, the only viable vehicle, from which to grow the Club’s fan base. Its aim is to allow for increased communication between the Club and the fan base, increased community involvement and, through the formation of the Supporters Federation, allow for increased fan input in the Club’s decision making." I strongly disagree that it is the "only" allegedly viable vehicle to grow our support. I doubt that the other aims cited above are achievable without at least one full time, specifically dedicated, employee who has some experience or aptitude of dealing with up to 5000 customers/clients/members. It is noted on the meeting report that there are currently 4 full time staff and the optimum is 6. Does that mean we can afford another 2? Would ideally like 2 more to cope with the current workload? or are hoping to generate money from Tag subs to fund 2 more to run it exclusively? Based on Jim's season ticket sales figures above of 2400 who get the core package free, and the target of 5000 members the revenue raised from Tag subs in the first year,if all upgrade to Tag plus, would be £547,200 ([2400 x 6, 2600 x 12]x12). No mean figure, but sufficient to run what has to be, considering that history of failure thus far, a highly professional club membership scheme offering further discounts, monthly draws and social events? Yup, still sceptical, so it would be a leap of faith for me to sign up or get right behind, right now. I repeat, the basic concept has got potential and promise. I see the point. I just think it's still some way off fruition. Edited February 28, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 From Age 16 - 18 A season Ticket is £50 - 18 - 20 - £75 that's a pretty reasonable for an SPFL Premier team That's excellent value. Didn't know that and neither did a couple of pals with kids. How have sales of these gone? Can they buy one now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 No one has ever said we need 5000 Members to make TAG commercially viable - the figure of 5000 is to ensure we have a sustainable Club which can regularly play in Europe - for far too long our Supporters have had there expectations managed downwards - we should be a Club with ambition - we are based in Glasgow with a massive potential catchement area for Supporters - TAG ensures we get give everyone who calls themselves a Jags Fan a chance to be connected to the Club - for varying reasons - distance - Family or Work - Cost Fans cannot be Season Ticket Holders TAG allows all of our support to be an integral part of PTFC - as for numbers - 1500 Season Ticket Holders - 900 Under 16 Season Ticket Holders - who progressively will become TAG Members - Facbook Stats over 200 Fans living in England - you can safely say another 200 living abroad - our target should be 500 "Nomads" - most Fans who live a distance are desperate to have a proper connection to there Club - obviuosly we have a long long way to go - but to suggest we can never achieve the numbers or that it will disengage half the support has to have some sort of basis in fact. Think most people like myself who are a little bit sceptical about the TAG scheme are just looking for a little bit of reassurance,working on any new business proposition there should be projections ,sometimes there is an ambiguity within that as nobody can be certain what figures they will return. As the initial launch for TAG never happened there should be some sort of clarity for the fans , for example 1st year membership 1500 fans , 2nd year 2300 fans and so on , The figures that you quote for season ticket holders are basically 1500 paid and 900 under 16 unpaid which you hope a proportion will go on to join the TAG scheme. Have we factored in we are a family club,so for instance a father with 2 kids isn't going to buy 3 TAG memberships . I really hope this is a success but to get all fans on board after the botched launch there should be a clarity about the costs and a reassurance we won't get into debt over this project 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Why should the club be varying gate prices?Because everyone has different budget and different priorities to spend their free cash. I understand that dicsounts can only be taken so far before they become financially unviable. However, I am trying to make the case that some of the current discounts should be reviewed and possibly diverted to other types of paying customers. Personally i think that £50 - 75 for under 20s seaon tickets is ridiculously low and could conceiveably be raised significantly without detriment to sales and still be marketed as very good value. 50quid for a season is about 3 quid a game? At £5 it would work out about £90. Still an attractive figure and one that could be reduced to £50 at christmas, for example, to attract a second round of sales? Is there a half season ticket for under 20s now? By slowly increasing from free U16s to full price paying adults helps to keep the kids once they turn 16 and helps keep the next generations of fans. I don't think dropping the price for the Notyh stand is a good one as you could end up with the full JHS moving there and costing the club We already have the best pricing across the ranges in the SPFL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 By slowly increasing from free U16s to full price paying adults helps to keep the kids once they turn 16 and helps keep the next generations of fans. I don't think dropping the price for the Notyh stand is a good one as you could end up with the full JHS moving there and costing the club We already have the best pricing across the ranges in the SPFL I did not suggest a free to full price season ticket for u16s to adult. All I said is I think we are selling ourselves short on that. The whole point of the setting up The North Stand was that it should be a different matchday experience. I think that idea would be strengthened by a differing pay at the gate price. If the original plan of making it an over 16s area was kept, and we have 900 u16s season tickets, plus all those who ahve sat in the same JHS seat since it was built, hospitality, and those who just prefer to watch the game from the side of the pitch without the restriction of someone encouraged to stand and sing infront of them, I doubt a £5 difference would leave the JHS empty. We may be top of the charts right now, but the best have to constantly look for ways to improve before they arfe caught upp or overtaken. Best in the SPFL is not necessarily such a great claim anyway. The bundesliga seems to be the promised land for fan value for money. Is it not better to take lessons from their lead rather then from our Scottish peers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) From Age 16 - 18 A season Ticket is £50 - 18 - 20 - £75 that's a pretty reasonable for an SPFL Premier team That's excellent value. Didn't know that and neither did a couple of pals with kids. How have sales of these gone? Can they buy one now? When were the 17s and the 18-21 prices lowered? http://ptfc.co.uk/do...cation_form.pdf Edited March 2, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) I'm not against the "Tag" concept or proposed subscription. But, it is still just that, concept and proposals marketed and sold without even the basic infrastucture in place. It has clearly been poorly thought out from the start. Cost and workload admitted to have been underestimated and, I would suggest real demand overestimated. Goodwill and confidence has certainly been damaged and understanding of what the scheme actually provides, and what non-members might be missing out on or even loosing is vague. I am surprised that what appears to be from the club's website report another rallying call that there is now strong determination from the club to make it suceed and if we all support it, it'll work, has seemed to have convinced some folks that this project is worthwhile or even essential. It is remarkable, and to their credit that the board have finally turned the club around and have reportedly got it running on sustainable financial basis. However, is a club with a small budget well advised to attempt "unique" and "ground breaking" commercial projects, with little or no experience of the field and which have revealed unforseen costs prior proper implementation? I beleive we have 1200 season ticket holders? 400 signed up to Tag alone? This site is free and has 2286 Members, how many "friends" does the club's facebook page have? How many subscribe to the centenary club? Is the trust not currently at 400ish membership. It's good to have ambitious targets but is it not fair to question the probability of "signing up" approximately an additional 3000 paying "members" to get them "more involved" in the club? I think we do have an untapped latent support. And many more with a "soft spot" for the jags. I think turnouts at the morton game or the cup final prove this. I question though, whether these supporters or sympathisers, want to become "more involved" or "have thier say" in running the club. I seriously doubt their interest in subscribing to Tag in it's current format .That, I think, is where fear of alienating some supprters comes from. That those with an unnurtured interest will be turned off if developing or even registering that interest starts to become costly. With that in mind, Tag should have some level of basic registration, without the benefits of Tag Core or Plus, free of charge. Perhaps it would just mean being put on an e-mailing list or acces to an on-line forum similar to this, but would serve as a statistics gathering and maketing tool for the club and help make them feel a little more "connected". I repeat, i've the utmost respect and gratitude to all who contribute to keeping the club going. They ought to be highly commended for getting the business to break even and it is not my intention to discourage them from their efforts. I dearly hope that Tag in whatever shape or form it takes is a success and helps keep the Jags going from strenght to strength. And, again, I don't think £5/6 a month for core or £12 for plus is unreasonable. I'm not against the "Tag" concept or proposed subscription. But, it is still just that, concept and proposals marketed and sold without even the basic infrastucture in place. It has clearly been poorly thought out from the start. Cost and workload admitted to have been underestimated and, I would suggest real demand overestimated. Goodwill and confidence has certainly been damaged and understanding of what the scheme actually provides, and what non-members might be missing out on or even loosing is vague. I am surprised that what appears to be from the club's website report another rallying call that there is now strong determination from the club to make it suceed and if we all support it, it'll work, has seemed to have convinced some folks that this project is worthwhile or even essential. It is remarkable, and to their credit that the board have finally turned the club around and have reportedly got it running on sustainable financial basis. However, is a club with a small budget well advised to attempt "unique" and "ground breaking" commercial projects, with little or no experience of the field and which have revealed unforseen costs prior proper implementation? I beleive we have 1200 season ticket holders? 400 signed up to Tag alone? This site is free and has 2286 Members, how many "friends" does the club's facebook page have? How many subscribe to the centenary club? Is the trust not currently at 400ish membership. It's good to have ambitious targets but is it not fair to question the probability of "signing up" approximately an additional 3000 paying "members" to get them "more involved" in the club? I think we do have an untapped latent support. And many more with a "soft spot" for the jags. I think turnouts at the morton game or the cup final prove this. I question though, whether these supporters or sympathisers, want to become "more involved" or "have thier say" in running the club. I seriously doubt their interest in subscribing to Tag in it's current format .That, I think, is where fear of alienating some supprters comes from. That those with an unnurtured interest will be turned off if developing or even registering that interest starts to become costly. With that in mind, Tag should have some level of basic registration, without the benefits of Tag Core or Plus, free of charge. Perhaps it would just mean being put on an e-mailing list or acces to an on-line forum similar to this, but would serve as a statistics gathering and maketing tool for the club and help make them feel a little more "connected". I repeat, i've the utmost respect and gratitude to all who contribute to keeping the club going. They ought to be highly commended for getting the business to break even and it is not my intention to discourage them from their efforts. I dearly hope that Tag in whatever shape or form it takes is a success and helps keep the Jags going from strenght to strength. And, again, I don't think £5/6 a month for core or £12 for plus is unreasonable. At no point has anyone ever stated that cost had been underestimated - what was said that promotion overtook events and that the resource associated with being in the top teir was more than we thought it would be - this in turn impacted on available resource to manage TAG - in addition the IT systems to support it were more complex than we had first thought. Any new concept or idea doesn't run smoothly - thats the problem with new - there is nothing to base your planning on - currently we have a project plan and are ensuring we are happy with our estimated timescales and resource required to deliver - the project plan identifies each element so we have a clear understanding of whats required in advance - as advised we will be in a better position to confirm a go live date over the next few weeks. Edited March 2, 2014 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 That's excellent value. Didn't know that and neither did a couple of pals with kids. How have sales of these gone? Can they buy one now? When were the 17s and the 18-21 prices lowered? http://ptfc.co.uk/do...cation_form.pdf That was an error on my part its £75 up to age 18 - all Kids Go Free Season Tickets and Youth Season Tickets end at Xmas as its half way through the Season - the idea is that U16 don't go from zero cost to £120 overnight as the are still likely to be at School up to age 18 we create in effect a soft landing from Kids Go Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted March 2, 2014 Members Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 But, one of the main stated objectives of the TAG scheme is to grow the support. Yep, and as I suggested elsewhere in the thread, let's not run before we learn to walk. Build a firm base, and grow it from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 if we get to a position of 5000 members thats 5000 x £60 = £300K revenue so its not likely to mean the Club gets into debt. Not based on anything more than a general rule of thumb of one employee for every 2500 members of any Web /IT Based Social Media System that still equates to revenues of £150K which more than supports any initial IT investment and ongoing support - the idea behind the concept is that running costs are kept to a minimum but we won't be going into debt by introducing TAG. As its a new concept the uptake per year is very difficult to forecast - this is not a short term project its a long term project and we will steadily work towards our targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The whole point of the setting up The North Stand was that it should be a different matchday experience. No it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Admirable numbers. Sell them Tag Membership and we're sorted. Funny enough thats what we intend to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted March 2, 2014 Members Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 if we get to a position of 5000 members thats 5000 x £60 = £300K revenue so its not likely to mean the Club gets into debt. Surely you have to factor in free membership with a Season Ticket though? Putting you on the spot here Jim, what is a realistic figure in your view that we can have initially. Or in other words, to tie it down further, what is the first month target of TAG (only counting those who will actually pay £60). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 if we get to a position of 5000 members thats 5000 x £60 = £300K revenue so its not likely to mean the Club gets into debt. Not based on anything more than a general rule of thumb of one employee for every 2500 members of any Web /IT Based Social Media System that still equates to revenues of £150K which more than supports any initial IT investment and ongoing support - the idea behind the concept is that running costs are kept to a minimum but we won't be going into debt by introducing TAG. As its a new concept the uptake per year is very difficult to forecast - this is not a short term project its a long term project and we will steadily work towards our targets. If we are able to increase our season ticket holders to say 2,000 then they will all be members of TAG without having to pay the £60. Clearly some will want to be in TAG+ and will pay the £60 for that plus those who are not season ticket holders but sign up for either package. I suppose what I am getting at is £300K per annum a target figure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 If we are able to increase our season ticket holders to say 2,000 then they will all be members of TAG without having to pay the £60. Clearly some will want to be in TAG+ and will pay the £60 for that plus those who are not season ticket holders but sign up for either package. I suppose what I am getting at is £300K per annum a target figure? The ultimate aim is to increase the Season Ticket Holders numbers as this has a massive impact on our playing budget but for many valid reasons not everyone can be a Season Ticket Holder - TAG isn't simply about revenue generation so there are no fixed budgets associated with it - we realise to get the Club to a sustainable level we need to grow the Fan Base - by doing so Season Ticket Holder numbers are more than likely to increase in proportion ( just think of your first £1000 50/50 draw prize if we increase fan numbers) , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) Surely you have to factor in free membership with a Season Ticket though? Putting you on the spot here Jim, what is a realistic figure in your view that we can have initially. Or in other words, to tie it down further, what is the first month target of TAG (only counting those who will actually pay £60). Will - this is a long term project - we are looking to have minimal running costs so its not in essence simply about revenue generation - as previously explained making Fans part of the Club is of equal importance - if we get to £300K either via TAG or increased Season Ticket Holders is a big win so not fussed which one it is. As there is nothing like it to base figures on the only indication I can give you is that to go from 14000 to 35000 registered Supporters took Espanyol 12 Years and constant hard graft - this was despite being in the bottom third of the league for most of those 12 years and missing relegation twice in the last 5 minutes of the final game of the Season. What we have to remember is that Swansea went from the brink of relegation to non league and Administration to the English Premier in less than a decade Edited March 2, 2014 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 At no point has anyone ever stated that cost had been underestimated - what was said that promotion overtook events and that the resource associated with being in the top teir was more than we thought it would be - this in turn impacted on available resource to manage TAG - in addition the IT systems to support it were more complex than we had first thought. Any new concept or idea doesn't run smoothly - thats the problem with new - there is nothing to base your planning on - currently we have a project plan and are ensuring we are happy with our estimated timescales and resource required to deliver - the project plan identifies each element so we have a clear understanding of whats required in advance - as advised we will be in a better position to confirm a go live date over the next few weeks. Sorry Jim, but cost and workload go hand in hand. If your trying to say that cost has not been underestimated because no-one has actually said "we underestimated cost", then I have to point out that the, what has been recognised by the club as, insufficient communications would imply that cost has been a factor. The "resource" you refer to, that have been re-directed for whatever reason (and by the way to my mind using promotion as an excuse for the delay of a product launched in relation to season ticket sales is ridiculous even if forgiveable), is that a paid resource? Is it not the case that part reason for the delay is because the club have insufficient paid staff to cope with the current or additional workload? If there is a set budget for the scheme which has been the same since it's launch, and it has not been exceeded, why was it left until february to advertise for volunteer expertise to assist with I.T. set up? Why is it only now that it's admitted "there is no software package that can simply be purchased", ? Or was this always the plan? The delay alone must surely be costing the club money through the additional work and now meetings to co-ordinate, cummunicate a re-launch or going live date? It seems the reason for that delay is it was unforseen, and under-budgeted the level staff required to cope with promotion and launch this new venture. The question now is, are we certain that the level of work has abated to such a level, post promotion excess, that there is now sufficient available staff to run the project? We have 4... do we need, can we afford the 6 mentioned as the optimum in the Tag meeting report? I assume there was some level of contentment with the project plan before the morton game launch. There is no firm assurances that we are better placed now for Tag success, at the end of a season where what league we might be in next year is again uncertain, other than we've got through promotion complications and we are learning how to do it properly now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 No it wasn't. Wasn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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