ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Funny enough thats what we intend to do That's an unenviable task Jim. Take a look at the followers on twitter and you'l see a large amount of them are followers of other teams, journalists, advertisers... ... ... I wish they were all potential contributors. But i very much doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Will - this is a long term project - we are looking to have minimal running costs so its not in essence simply about revenue generation - as previously explained making Fans part of the Club is of equal importance - if we get to £300K either via TAG or increased Season Ticket Holders is a big win so not fussed which one it is. As there is nothing like it to base figures on the only indication I can give you is that to go from 14000 to 35000 registered Supporters took Espanyol 12 Years and constant hard graft - this was despite being in the bottom third of the league for most of those 12 years and missing relegation twice in the last 5 minutes of the final game of the Season. What we have to remember is that Swansea went from the brink of relegation to non league and Administration to the English Premier in less than a decade We also have to remember Portsmouth who went from the English Premier League to League Two in only 4 years. They are currently 19th and only 6 points above the relegation zone. Non-League football next season is a real possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 No it wasn't. What was it? I'd have thought that a different experience was part of the plan. But I don't know, so genuinely just interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 What was it? I'd have thought that a different experience was part of the plan. But I don't know, so genuinely just interested. Part of the plan, was to improve the experience that the singing section was having. But that makes it sound very selfish and solely about making it a better match day for those who were in the JHS singing section, whilst part of it, it certainly wasn't the whole point. The original post said... The WHOLE POINT of the setting up The North Stand was that it should be a different matchday experience. Put it this way, if someone asked, what was the whole point in the north stand. I wouldn't have answered... To give a different match day experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Part of the plan, was to improve the experience that the singing section was having. But that makes it sound very selfish and solely about making it a better match day for those who were in the JHS singing section, whilst part of it, it certainly wasn't the whole point. The original post said... The WHOLE POINT of the setting up The North Stand was that it should be a different matchday experience. Put it this way, if someone asked, what was the whole point in the north stand. I wouldn't have answered... To give a different match day experience. What was the point in the North stand PT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 What was the point in the North stand PT? The reason behind the North Stand move was one of acoustics - stuck up in the corner of the JHS the guys trying to make a bit of an atmosphere were on a hiding to nothing as the noise was never going to travel and get the rest of the support joining in - our initial aim was 50 people in the NS - we averaged 450 - 500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The reason behind the North Stand move was one of acoustics - stuck up in the corner of the JHS the guys trying to make a bit of an atmosphere were on a hiding to nothing as the noise was never going to travel and get the rest of the support joining in - our initial aim was 50 people in the NS - we averaged 450 - 500 Making everybody's matchday experience different right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 At no point has anyone ever stated that cost had been underestimated - what was said that promotion overtook events and that the resource associated with being in the top teir was more than we thought it would be - this in turn impacted on available resource to manage TAG - in addition the IT systems to support it were more complex than we had first thought. Any new concept or idea doesn't run smoothly - thats the problem with new - there is nothing to base your planning on - currently we have a project plan and are ensuring we are happy with our estimated timescales and resource required to deliver - the project plan identifies each element so we have a clear understanding of whats required in advance - as advised we will be in a better position to confirm a go live date over the next few weeks. Read all the different threads and all your replies and without being hypercritical they seem to seem to be getting vaguer and everyone seems to be putting a spin on the figures,the sums seem absolutely way out our reach £300,000 , your quoted figures or the clubs are talking in the region of 5000 TAG holders at £60.00 . I have no idea how we ever would get close to that , incorporating TAG into the season ticket is absolutely fine as it would give supporters a chance to see the quality of the product that's getting produced. You will get supporters taking a leap of faith on the TAG + but how many of them will do that I'm not so sure. I'm also worried that you never replied re costs, how much does the software cost ? , what are the marketing costs ? , staffing costs ? , IT costs on set up, as I said before any business plan would incorporate all of this and most business's because of this have got to carry debt before it evolves into a profit making organisation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Sorry Jim, but cost and workload go hand in hand. If your trying to say that cost has not been underestimated because no-one has actually said "we underestimated cost", then I have to point out that the, what has been recognised by the club as, insufficient communications would imply that cost has been a factor. The "resource" you refer to, that have been re-directed for whatever reason (and by the way to my mind using promotion as an excuse for the delay of a product launched in relation to season ticket sales is ridiculous even if forgiveable), is that a paid resource? Is it not the case that part reason for the delay is because the club have insufficient paid staff to cope with the current or additional workload? If there is a set budget for the scheme which has been the same since it's launch, and it has not been exceeded, why was it left until february to advertise for volunteer expertise to assist with I.T. set up? Why is it only now that it's admitted "there is no software package that can simply be purchased", ? Or was this always the plan? The delay alone must surely be costing the club money through the additional work and now meetings to co-ordinate, cummunicate a re-launch or going live date? It seems the reason for that delay is it was unforseen, and under-budgeted the level staff required to cope with promotion and launch this new venture. The question now is, are we certain that the level of work has abated to such a level, post promotion excess, that there is now sufficient available staff to run the project? We have 4... do we need, can we afford the 6 mentioned as the optimum in the Tag meeting report? I assume there was some level of contentment with the project plan before the morton game launch. There is no firm assurances that we are better placed now for Tag success, at the end of a season where what league we might be in next year is again uncertain, other than we've got through promotion complications and we are learning how to do it properly now. We operate the Club on a tight budget trying to ensure the maximum amount of the monies we receive go to the Football side - as TAG was a new product there was nothing put in the budget for it as a revenue therefore it hasn't impacted on our budget - all of the work carried out to date has been by people who are unpaid - you start off any new venture in effect "not knowing what you don't know", you then by a process find out "what you don't know" - this is largely the case with TAG - we are breaking new ground and hindsight is an exact science - regards IT we thought we could bolt on to what we had - that turned out to be a wrong assumption - as we have no IT experts on the Board we sought professional help. This as stated before is new - there is no off the shelf box of solutions - no new idea ever starts smoothly its part of the process.\\ The idea is sound ,the Launch was to a high standard - we have delayed delivery - not stopped delivery - does it make it harder to Market - Yes - does it make a bad idea - No - good ideas have a way of getting there in the end. There is a danger that you simply recruit for the sake of it - then end up with the wrong resource - as things evolve you find the gaps and fill them- this is the process we have gone through. No there are no firm assurances but we have a detailed project plan which has evolved and we are working towards ensuring any gaps are addressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Read all the different threads and all your replies and without being hypercritical they seem to seem to be getting vaguer and everyone seems to be putting a spin on the figures,the sums seem absolutely way out our reach £300,000 , your quoted figures or the clubs are talking in the region of 5000 TAG holders at £60.00 . I have no idea how we ever would get close to that , incorporating TAG into the season ticket is absolutely fine as it would give supporters a chance to see the quality of the product that's getting produced. You will get supporters taking a leap of faith on the TAG + but how many of them will do that I'm not so sure. I'm also worried that you never replied re costs, how much does the software cost ? , what are the marketing costs ? , staffing costs ? , IT costs on set up, as I said before any business plan would incorporate all of this and most business's because of this have got to carry debt before it evolves into a profit making organisation . If we were Dundee Utd would that figure seem impossible ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 We operate the Club on a tight budget trying to ensure the maximum amount of the monies we receive go to the Football side - as TAG was a new product there was nothing put in the budget for it as a revenue therefore it hasn't impacted on our budget - all of the work carried out to date has been by people who are unpaid - you start off any new venture in effect "not knowing what you don't know", you then by a process find out "what you don't know" - this is largely the case with TAG - we are breaking new ground and hindsight is an exact science - regards IT we thought we could bolt on to what we had - that turned out to be a wrong assumption - as we have no IT experts on the Board we sought professional help. This as stated before is new - there is no off the shelf box of solutions - no new idea ever starts smoothly its part of the process.\\ The idea is sound ,the Launch was to a high standard - we have delayed delivery - not stopped delivery - does it make it harder to Market - Yes - does it make a bad idea - No - good ideas have a way of getting there in the end. There is a danger that you simply recruit for the sake of it - then end up with the wrong resource - as things evolve you find the gaps and fill them- this is the process we have gone through. No there are no firm assurances but we have a detailed project plan which has evolved and we are working towards ensuring any gaps are addressed So basically we did the launch at the Morton game with all the laminates etc on an idea with no real knowledge on how to get TAG up and running. Unbelievable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 If we were Dundee Utd would that figure seem impossible ? Not sure if you're trying to apply like for like,they've probably got a core support of about 2500/3000 more than us, they've also been in the top league for 15 years , and would I like PTFC to aspire to that level ? Absolutely yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 What was the point in the North stand PT? Maybe this whole side track on the north stand and it's pricing would be best served in a different thread, I think it distracts from the OP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) So basically we did the launch at the Morton game with all the laminates etc on an idea with no real knowledge on how to get TAG up and running. Unbelievable I never said that - what Im saying that in any new product development you don't always know what the obstacles are going to be - thats the problem with new things you have nothing to base your plans on - so we had a new product then a new league set up to deal with which meant a lot of resource simply to get the Football side up and running - TAG unfortunately was a.A casualty of this and b.more complex than we first envisioned Edited March 2, 2014 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) Not sure if you're trying to apply like for like,they've probably got a core support of about 2500/3000 more than us, they've also been in the top league for 15 years , and would I like PTFC to aspire to that level ? Absolutely yes And they also have a City with a population of 180000 we have a City and surrounding area of five times that - no one ever said this was a quick fix or its going to be easy - turning round things like a declining fan base never was Edited March 2, 2014 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) I never said that - what Im saying that in any new product development you don't always know what the obstacles are going to be - thats the problem with new things you have nothing to base your plans on - so we had a new product then a new league set up to deal with which meant a lot of resource simply to get the Football side up and running - TAG unfortunately was a) A casualty of this and more complex than we first envisioned Surely if we're trying to promote a new concept and charge £60.00 for it, you should know everything about it, you've just said on a previous post that we didn't have the IT experience to basically get the template to get it up and running , as I said before absolutely unbelievable Edited March 2, 2014 by jlsarmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Come on lads, every great journey starts with one small step, we have made a few of them now. The club has identified a way to link us supporters together closer to the club, with add ons we can pay for if we wish. We (Well me in particular) have berated the club for not looking forward, engaging with the fans and attempting to maximize the revenue income out with matchdays. This ticks all the boxes on this, plus its different, its new, an alternative to what is already there, like Thistle themselves. This is out the box thinking, for a long term goal, what else do you want the club to come up with that can come close to what TAG has the possibility to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Come on lads, every great journey starts with one small step, we have made a few of them now. The club has identified a way to link us supporters together closer to the club, with add ons we can pay for if we wish. We (Well me in particular) have berated the club for not looking forward, engaging with the fans and attempting to maximize the revenue income out with matchdays. This ticks all the boxes on this, plus its different, its new, an alternative to what is already there, like Thistle themselves. This is out the box thinking, for a long term goal, what else do you want the club to come up with that can come close to what TAG has the possibility to do I agree with everything you say,all I'm disagreeing with is the business end of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kni Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Come on lads, every great journey starts with one small step, we have made a few of them now. The club has identified a way to link us supporters together closer to the club, with add ons we can pay for if we wish. We (Well me in particular) have berated the club for not looking forward, engaging with the fans and attempting to maximize the revenue income out with matchdays. This ticks all the boxes on this, plus its different, its new, an alternative to what is already there, like Thistle themselves. This is out the box thinking, for a long term goal, what else do you want the club to come up with that can come close to what TAG has the possibility to do How about keeping fans, especially season ticket holders, informed of TAG's progress (or, more accurately, lack of it) instead keeping them in the dark for nearly a year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 jlsarmy & kni I'm sure you mean well and have the clubs best interests at heart but JJ and others have been honest about the delay and long term aims. It's a project where quantifiable figures can't be set in the near future such is its nature. If you have skills to bring to the table to improve then I'm sure you will be welcome to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) Surely if we're trying to promote a new concept and charge £60.00 for it, you should know everything about it, you've just said on a previous post that we didn't have the IT experience to basically get the template to get it up and running , as I said before absolutely unbelievable Any new idea is a process as there is no template then you are in effect trying to estimate based on limited information - when it comes to IT very few organisations get it right first time e.g. the recent NHS record system - we are a relatively small Club ,recently promoted - we are trying to look forward and develop a concept that will grow the fan base - thats something thats been needing addressed for the last 20 years - the IT content was more complex than first thought - thats it - you could apply that to the vast majority of organisations who attempt to make change - sometimes it doesn't work the way you planned it - the worst accusation that can be made is that we are late - no money has changed hands - it wasn't budgeted as an income so the impact on the Club as it stands today is not critical - its a long term project that will take years to grow - we are late - the Club have apologised publicly for lateness and lack of communications. Of course we could take a large chunk of money out of the Football side and throw resource at it - but that impacts on the core thing we support -the team. So left with a choice of a limited income then you have to prioritise. Edited March 2, 2014 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Thanks for staying with us on this Jim. I honestly admire your personal dedication and greatly value yours and others volunteered time and availability to the club. I trust you appreciate that my scutiny and persistance on here is driven as much out of love and ambition for the jags as fear of failure. You say the launch was to a high standard. A big operation with lot's of coverage, but I think it left many unclear about the scheme and all that the club wanted to achieve from it. I may have missed something at the time but the plans to build a supporters federation in conjuction to the scheme were news to me after the launch. Was there no money put into it? Run by volunteers, lanyards and tag info cards printed free? If so great, but still it committed the club to more work, questions and promises at a time when we had a real chance of promotion on a shoestring. "W.T.F is this all about?" was the question i recall on the lips of my pals on launch night. The general first wave of opinion being was that it was "the trust re-branded, with benefits", an opinion that i beleive you may have had to correct several times since. Yes, starting a new project, it's hard to account for all eventualities, but launching on the assumption that a suitable software package is available, affordable, and workable without any time to learn it's nuances? That could and should have been checked. Indefensible. If what is alluded to as the original plan of purchasing a software pakage that could be bolted on to existing systems, was that cost not budgeted for out of club funds or was this project's infrastructure assumed available on Linux freeware? I'm glad that you are willing to admit that the history of Tag has made it a more difficult product to market. My fear is that the determination to push it through, on a learn as we go basis, whilst the concept apears to be growing arms and legs as opposed to refinement ( i.e.still no written prospectus of all that Tag is and therefore differing views on it's goals, contributions, commitments ) may lead to more unforseen problems arising and further negative P.R. with detriment to the club's credability. I've said from the start i like the idea of some kind of membership scheme that is a vehicle to connect and contribute to the club and possibly grow our number. However, I'm unconvinced Tag will do this, and after a year of failure or "delayed delivery" it is by your own admission harder to convince others to buy into it. I try to base my criticism on the facts or at least the information i can access and my honest interpretation of it. I do not carry an agenda of negativity where Thistle are concerned. However, on a matter of opinion, I think Tag has tried to do too much, too soon, and too quickly. I think linking it to season tickets sales and the creation of a supporters federation has over complicated the idea of a membership club where the supporters have a say running of the football club. Prospectively adding it to this years season ticket packaged as a free benefit or not certainly dis-credits your arguement no money has changed hands. It would have been a better idea to set up a club for those who can contribute a little more financially or with there time, on the basis free registration for those willing to volunteer and the creation of a fund generated by members who can afford it and the use of that fund being democratically decided by the members. An annual vote on a shortlist of projects to assist the club drawn up by the board and the club members. That would give the members and their membership real power, value, significance and influence and clarity on the direction and benefits of their contributions. The club would have to contribute the office space and possibly commit to staffing costs until it could fund itself. Current Tag prizes that would cost little to deliver, like team bus travel and e-mailed programes to Nomad fans are great, but the emphasis of such a club for a business running on a level such as the Jags Ltd. should be of the "ask not what your club can do for you, ask what you can do for your club" type. I think this is the general idea of tag. For fans to take some ownership and contribute what they can. But i think that much of that ideal has been lost on Tag and therefore it's potential or imediate benefits severely damaged. Badly sold, over complicated, rushed through and still no clear prospectus for future plans. I trust that will come. It has got to be concise, costed and ready to run. Edited March 3, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Any new idea is a process as there is no template then you are in effect trying to estimate based on limited information - when it comes to IT very few organisations get it right first time e.g. the recent NHS record system - we are a relatively small Club ,recently promoted - we are trying to look forward and develop a concept that will grow the fan base - thats something thats been needing addressed for the last 20 years - the IT content was more complex than first thought - thats it - you could apply that to the vast majority of organisations who attempt to make change - sometimes it doesn't work the way you planned it - the worst accusation that can be made is that we are late - no money has changed hands - it wasn't budgeted as an income so the impact on the Club as it stands today is not critical - its a long term project that will take years to grow - we are late - the Club have apologised publicly for lateness and lack of communications. Of course we could take a large chunk of money out of the Football side and throw resource at it - but that impacts on the core thing we support -the team. So left with a choice of a limited income then you have to prioritise. Only slight difference is the NHS aren't trying to charge us £60.00 for using it,not a great comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Tell you what. From some of the posts on here it would seem like jlsarmy and chewingum... could offer an awful lot to the club. They are certainly quick enough to point out what they think is wrong so I can only assume they are happy to get involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Do we honestly believe we should be getting TAG for free? Reduced prices for the NS? What else, read the programme for free on line? Cheaper seats in JHS as less singing? Free parent places to encourage more FREE kids? Edited March 3, 2014 by Norgethistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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