Diego Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Firstly, there's no way we could avoid the whole winter The team I watch here in Denmark played their last game on December 3rd and aren't in action again until March 8th, so it is possible. Byes for the Euro 4. Surely the League Cup would be better July prep for them than friendlies? St Johnstone were too busy getting pumped by Alashkert this July to have taken part in an early League Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Tho' I can see the value in the bonus point it's widely agreed that penalty shoot outs are very much a lottery. It's generally accepted as the best or perhaps only realistic way to have a tie breaker but that's purely for expediency. If they want to play around with points then they could give 2 pts for a score draw and 1pt for a goalless draw. Tho' not always the case goalless draws are usually poor entertainment and in mini leagues can be "played out" without exactly cheating. I'd contend score draws are more difficult to "arrange" and at least mean there's been some football played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 St Johnstone were too busy getting pumped by Alashkert this July to have taken part in an early League Cup. No matter how they fare, all of our Euro teams have every weekend in July free. They can play their second string if they wish, that's up to them. No team should simply be parachuted into the last 16 in any circumstances. In St Johnstone's case, they should look upon their 2 European matches as the ideal preparation for their forthcoming League Cup adventures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Diego, I already acknowledged the success of the Scandinavian model. But what's possible in Denmark doesn't necessarily means it's possible here. The clubs in Scotland have been ran a certain way for over a century, and during that time they've only had to go 2/3 months max without a steady income stream coming in. I don't think any clubs in Scotland would be happy about going 5 months without a game. I very much doubt the fans would be happy about that aspect either. That's a hell of a lot of trips to Silverburn! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p12tfc Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm assuming straight to penalties is because teams will be playing 5 games in less than 2 weeks at the start of the season. Imagine a team drew all 5 games and had to play extra time every game.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blues Brother Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Might well be the solution but you could end up in solvent. You have an eye for a typo M'Lady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Tho' I can see the value in the bonus point it's widely agreed that penalty shoot outs are very much a lottery. There was a study conducted on penalty shoot outs in (I think) German cup competitions and found that the higher ranked team won more often than not. Shoot outs are not a lottery, it's down to the skill and composure of the players partaking. These may not be the attributes that will best win a game over ninety minutes, but calling it a lottery is doing a disservice to quality goalkeepers and penalty takers who can put the ball in the corner or send the keeper the wrong way while under great pressure. That said, as we haven't taken a penalty in anger for a year and a half, I'm not sure it's the best way of awarding a bonus point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm not overjoyed at he prospect of penalty shoot outs and am particularly reluctant to take seriously anything that emanates from Doncaster the mans a joke, albeit a well paid one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 This sounds interesting, but I worry when our esteemed leaders say stupid things like: "...the ground-breaking bonus point system should add incentive to teams...." said Doncaster. The bonus point system offers no incentive. You either win or lose a penalty shoot out, there is no added incentive in a bonus point. It's not like teams can hold on for the draw. This statement is incredibly stupid. I must be missing something. The bonus point means you get 2 points instead of 1. How is that not an incentive ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I must be missing something. The bonus point means you get 2 points instead of 1. How is that not an incentive ? But what are they incentivising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 So it used to be 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw. The change was made, universally, to 3/1 to encourage attacking football, to make a draw a less rewarding outcome. In a ground breaking move, Scotland is making 2 points for a draw a possibility, encouraging what exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't know whether it will promote attacking football or not, but what is "ground breaking" about an idea that has been tried in USA and Japan ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't know whether it will promote attacking football or not, but what is "ground breaking" about an idea that has been tried in USA and Japan ? Interesting. Wasn't aware of that, DD. Was it used in the same way, i.e. to give one team in a drawn game an extra point? Or was it a way of forcing a positive result from the game? Is either country still using the system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sick in the basin Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 There was a study conducted on penalty shoot outs in (I think) German cup competitions and found that the higher ranked team won more often than not. Shoot outs are not a lottery, it's down to the skill and composure of the players partaking. These may not be the attributes that will best win a game over ninety minutes, but calling it a lottery is doing a disservice to quality goalkeepers and penalty takers who can put the ball in the corner or send the keeper the wrong way while under great pressure. That said, as we haven't taken a penalty in anger for a year and a half, I'm not sure it's the best way of awarding a bonus point. Worthy of a thread on its own - one of the most overused cliches in fitba is the penalties are a lottery - utter nonsense as you've more eloquently pointed out ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Interesting. Wasn't aware of that, DD. Was it used in the same way, i.e. to give one team in a drawn game an extra point? Or was it a way of forcing a positive result from the game? Is either country still using the system? Japan adopted the Win=3 pts, Draw=1 pt, Loss=0 pts format in 2003: no penalties, no extra-time, no golden goal for league games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 The incentive is to get a point more than your opponent which gives your team a better chance of qualifying from the group. At least that is what I take from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Interesting. Wasn't aware of that, DD. Was it used in the same way, i.e. to give one team in a drawn game an extra point? Or was it a way of forcing a positive result from the game? Is either country still using the system? This is from wikipedia Several leagues, such as the J-League,[5] have experimented with penalty shoot-outs immediately following a drawn league match, with the winner being awarded an extra point. In the United States, Major League Soccer initially also had a shoot-out immediately following the end of full-time, even during league matches, although these shoot-outs differed from standard penalty shoot-outs (see below). The MLS was slightly different in that they started from about 30 yards out and had 7 seconds to score. The J-League was similar to what is being proposed here, but with extra time first. 3 pts for regulation win, 2 pts for extra-time win, 1 pt for PK win, and 0 pts for any loss. Interesting that both have abandoned the idea. Not like Doncaster to flog a dead horse though. Edited December 9, 2015 by Dick Dastardly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Japan adopted the Win=3 pts, Draw=1 pt, Loss=0 pts format in 2003: no penalties, no extra-time, no golden goal for league games. I thought it was the late 90's. Then they went to Golden Goal extra time in league games, but abolished that around 2003. Prety sure it is now 90 minutes with 3 points for a win and 1 point for a draw now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I thought it was the late 90's. Then they went to Golden Goal extra time in league games, but abolished that around 2003. Prety sure it is now 90 minutes with 3 points for a win and 1 point for a draw now. I'm not entirely sure about dates (I never am), but absolutely sure about your last part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I don't know whether it will promote attacking football or not, but what is "ground breaking" about an idea that has been tried in USA and Japan ? I do Doncaster an injustice. What he proposes is truelly grondbreaking .... The meaningless penalty shootout ! Going into the final game, Team A lead Team B by 2 points and they meet head to head. Team A hold out for the draw, to win the group, but still we have the penalty shoot out for absolutely nothing ! This is brilliant ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I do Doncaster an injustice. What he proposes is truelly grondbreaking .... The meaningless penalty shootout ! Going into the final game, Team A lead Team B by 2 points and they meet head to head. Team A hold out for the draw, to win the group, but still we have the penalty shoot out for absolutely nothing ! This is brilliant ! I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact details, but I think it is/was in Europe's second tier ice hockey competition that they conducted a penalty shout out at the end of every group stage match, regardless of result, in case it was needed as a tie breaker at the end of the round robin. It's a bit strange seeing a penalty shoot out after a 6-0 pumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I remember when the MLS was formed they had the Ice Hockey style shootouts rather than spot kicks to decide the game. Players running with the ball from the half way line for a one on one with the keeper. They scrapped it because it was gash. This is a novelty idea to spark a bit of interest in the competition. It will be gone after 1 or 2 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Worthy of a thread on its own - one of the most overused cliches in fitba is the penalties are a lottery - utter nonsense as you've more eloquently pointed out ! So you're saying that penalty shoot outs aren't largely random? Just about any shoot out I watch I haven't a clue who is going to win. I'd be interested to see bookies live odds. Unless there's some extenuating circumstances like one team subbed some of their likely penalty takers then I'd suggest the odds will be close to evens apiece. It's akin to settling a tied golf major on the putting green. Yes, a test of skill but only a small part of the overall game. I'm fairly convinced that it is far more a test of nerves than ability. Look at the guys that have scored in shoot outs that have never been considered their team's first choice penalty taker. Look at the regular first choices that have missed in shoot outs. So I'd say it's as much about who is least nervous at the time than who plays for the more deserving or better team on the night. That to me is verging on random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 in complete agreement with every word old lady issy says above on this. football is a team game. that's eleven against eleven. penalties is ultimately five against one for two teams for ten kicks. yes penalties are part of the game, but predominantly their purpose is for when a foul inside the box is made. never been a fan of them to decide a match. nerves, luck, keeper guessing right way to go, amongst plenty other factors, means penalties IS a lottery. particularly over ten kicks. why not do tossing a coin ten times, and giving five supporters of each club the chance to call heads or tails ..... wouldn't be far off being as equally accurate and fair as penalties to decide the outcome of a match. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Remember when corners used to be a decider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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