Fawlty Towers Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) The only thing that I can add to Norgethistle's excellent post is the link for signing up to TJF: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/sign-up/ Edited March 7, 2022 by Fawlty Towers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Norgethistle said: 1. Fan numbers to prove the organization is fit and proper, they are making in roads to that and working (very hard) to improve engagement. 2. Due diligence, fans need to know exactly what they are taking over whether good, bad or indifferent. On point 1…..I took from the meeting that we need to get as many as possible joining to enhance the organization and fan engagement ( and cash ) not that if we only have 500 members the shares will not be transferred or that the Foundation would not be a considered a fit and proper organization ….so for various reasons getting new members is important on point 2 ….I get the general point that we need to understand the situation the club is in and what obligations are being handed over but the current fan directors should basically know all that detail….eg is there a deficit between income and expenditure, was there a loan from 3BC and if so what are the terms etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 10 hours ago, javeajag said: On point 1…..I took from the meeting that we need to get as many as possible joining to enhance the organization and fan engagement ( and cash ) not that if we only have 500 members the shares will not be transferred or that the Foundation would not be a considered a fit and proper organization ….so for various reasons getting new members is important on point 2 ….I get the general point that we need to understand the situation the club is in and what obligations are being handed over but the current fan directors should basically know all that detail….eg is there a deficit between income and expenditure, was there a loan from 3BC and if so what are the terms etc etc Why are some people so fearful of professional due diligence? It seems bizarre that something that would be done in any transaction is an apparent major issue here. In terms of Directors having access to all the detail, firstly they might and they might not. As I understand it, the Chair of TJF who is also on the PTFC Board now (*conflict of interest klaxon*) is not a financial professional and may not have the expertise to ask the right questions and interrogate the financial position. Overall, it just seems remarkable to me that the PTFC Board and its acolytes are so desperate to avoid a professional process that assures the fans of what they are taking on. Due Diligence protects the seller as well as the buyer in a transaction and I would have thought that in this case, if I were handing over stewardship of the club to the fans, I would want that to happen so that I can demonstrate that the club is being handed over in good health. The trouble is, there seems to be certain individuals who are forcefully against professional due diligence without any explanation as to why. The result is that we can only speculate on their reasons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 10 hours ago, javeajag said: On point 1…..I took from the meeting that we need to get as many as possible joining to enhance the organization and fan engagement ( and cash ) not that if we only have 500 members the shares will not be transferred or that the Foundation would not be a considered a fit and proper organization ….so for various reasons getting new members is important on point 2 ….I get the general point that we need to understand the situation the club is in and what obligations are being handed over but the current fan directors should basically know all that detail….eg is there a deficit between income and expenditure, was there a loan from 3BC and if so what are the terms etc etc there are no "current fan directors" there are appiontees to the Board - Fan Directors are elected from the Fan Base - therefore the due dilligence is crucial and is standard practice when there is a takeover of a Company - we cannot simply say that it will be fine - whatismore the current appiontees are conflicted -and cannot give out key financial information Regards the fact it only has 500 Members out of a Core Support of around 3000 - there was never at any point any Groundswell for Fan Ownership - this was pushed by a relatively small Group of People - the Numbers simply reflect the lack of interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 19 hours ago, javeajag said: So let’s assume they did …. So what ? Only a thistle fan could turn getting £500k as a bad thing the club will be handed over debt free which is a positive except to you Not if the £500K is a Loan ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 On 3/6/2022 at 7:17 PM, javeajag said: They there is no legal obligation on the shares to transfer to a fans group but that was Colin weirs express wish…..the land would transfer after the share transfer for tax reasons …..nothing was said about anything else Im not sure that an "Express Wish" is legally binding and it leaves an awful lot to interpitation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Maybe would not make much of a difference with sign ups but I feel things like this is where we are missing a match programme. Not everyone reads forums or is on social media and to have info, contact details and membership applications in black and white on paper in something that was previously sold to the punters and distributed free in hospitality can only have been a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Not if the £500K is a Loan ? Depends as always on the terms of the loan which can of course be written off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, The Ghost said: Why are some people so fearful of professional due diligence? It seems bizarre that something that would be done in any transaction is an apparent major issue here. In terms of Directors having access to all the detail, firstly they might and they might not. As I understand it, the Chair of TJF who is also on the PTFC Board now (*conflict of interest klaxon*) is not a financial professional and may not have the expertise to ask the right questions and interrogate the financial position. Overall, it just seems remarkable to me that the PTFC Board and its acolytes are so desperate to avoid a professional process that assures the fans of what they are taking on. Due Diligence protects the seller as well as the buyer in a transaction and I would have thought that in this case, if I were handing over stewardship of the club to the fans, I would want that to happen so that I can demonstrate that the club is being handed over in good health. The trouble is, there seems to be certain individuals who are forcefully against professional due diligence without any explanation as to why. The result is that we can only speculate on their reasons. I’m not fearful of DD …if directors don’t have access to the company information they are entitled to, then the the club is breaking company law and any director would be personally liable if they knowingly did that. So that’s not very likely. PTFC is a very small and very simple business and on this forum we could identify the few real questions about 10 and 20….. but if someone wants to pay someone to do it fine. My point is that all that information is currently available to the directors. Eg the terms of the loan from 3BC ( if that’s what it is ) as the club ie the directors had to agree to it. but we should not treat this as though fans are buying some multi national …..yes we need to know the financial situation of the club and any obligations if you want to call that DD fine by me its just tedious that the underlying assumption is always that somebody somewhere is trying to pull a fast one on a company with a turnover of c£1.5m ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: there are no "current fan directors" there are appiontees to the Board - Fan Directors are elected from the Fan Base - therefore the due dilligence is crucial and is standard practice when there is a takeover of a Company - we cannot simply say that it will be fine - whatismore the current appiontees are conflicted -and cannot give out key financial information Regards the fact it only has 500 Members out of a Core Support of around 3000 - there was never at any point any Groundswell for Fan Ownership - this was pushed by a relatively small Group of People - the Numbers simply reflect the lack of interest The appointees to the board are fans and lack of interest could kill the club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Im not sure that an "Express Wish" is legally binding and it leaves an awful lot to interpitation ? Sure but if they don’t transfer then 3BC own the club ie Jacqui low but if that’s what you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 11 minutes ago, javeajag said: The appointees to the board are fans and lack of interest could kill the club Yes - But they are not Fan Directors - until recently pretty much every Director of the Club has been a Thistle Fan However a Fans Director is someone elected by the Fans - therefore they are answerable to the Fans - unlike an Appointee We therefore have No "Fans Directors" on our Board as you stated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 27 minutes ago, javeajag said: Depends as always on the terms of the loan which can of course be written off Exactly - and it could of course be payment on demand - hence why Due Diligence is very very important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 16 minutes ago, javeajag said: I’m not fearful of DD …if directors don’t have access to the company information they are entitled to, then the the club is breaking company law and any director would be personally liable if they knowingly did that. So that’s not very likely. PTFC is a very small and very simple business and on this forum we could identify the few real questions about 10 and 20….. but if someone wants to pay someone to do it fine. My point is that all that information is currently available to the directors. Eg the terms of the loan from 3BC ( if that’s what it is ) as the club ie the directors had to agree to it. but we should not treat this as though fans are buying some multi national …..yes we need to know the financial situation of the club and any obligations if you want to call that DD fine by me its just tedious that the underlying assumption is always that somebody somewhere is trying to pull a fast one on a company with a turnover of c£1.5m ! No One is Suggesting anyone is trying to pull " A Fast One" however given that our Finances have always been on a Knife Edge and we have faced very critical Financial Pressures over the Years - doing Due Diligence is simply a requirement and No one should be arguing against it that has the Clubs Best Interests at Heart It as has been stated by another Poster Protects all Parties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 18 minutes ago, javeajag said: The appointees to the board are fans and lack of interest could kill the club On this we agree - Apathy Kills Clubs and currently that is my Fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yes - But they are not Fan Directors - until recently pretty much every Director of the Club has been a Thistle Fan However a Fans Director is someone elected by the Fans - therefore they are answerable to the Fans - unlike an Appointee We therefore have No "Fans Directors" on our Board as you stated I know but your perennial tediousness knows no bounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 19 minutes ago, javeajag said: Sure but if they don’t transfer then 3BC own the club ie Jacqui low but if that’s what you want No idea why you are stating "thats what I want" - Ive simply pointed out the fact there is No requirement to Transfer anything to the Fans ( assuming the statements ref Colin Weir Will is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, javeajag said: I know but your perennial tediousness knows no bounds If Stating Facts is Tedious - Im 100% Guilty as Charged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Exactly - and it could of course be payment on demand - hence why Due Diligence is very very important You don’t need DD which is my point….just ask that very simple question as the directors some of whom are in the jags foundation should be able to answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Due Diligence is just mechanism for gathering information …..should the Jags Foundation know the financial situation of the club and any obligations that come with ownership ? Yes of course. The mechanism for getting that information you can call what you like but what information do we want that is not already known to the directors of the club , I’d be astonished if it’s anything at all. but to be constructive let’s start compiling our own due diligence information gathering …. 1. Has there been a loan from 3BC to the club 2. If yes, what are the terms of that loan 3. is there a monthly operating deficit 4. what is 3BCs relationship with the club after the share transfer 5. Who was involved in appointing Gary Caldwell 6. What is the ‘big announcement’ that’s been hinted at and how does that affect the club 7. Has the club any debts 8 Has the club any unstated liabilities etc etc feel free to add yours in , it can be sent to the Jags Foundation to answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 3 hours ago, javeajag said: Due Diligence is just mechanism for gathering information …..should the Jags Foundation know the financial situation of the club and any obligations that come with ownership ? Yes of course. The mechanism for getting that information you can call what you like but what information do we want that is not already known to the directors of the club , I’d be astonished if it’s anything at all. but to be constructive let’s start compiling our own due diligence information gathering …. 1. Has there been a loan from 3BC to the club 2. If yes, what are the terms of that loan 3. is there a monthly operating deficit 4. what is 3BCs relationship with the club after the share transfer 5. Who was involved in appointing Gary Caldwell 6. What is the ‘big announcement’ that’s been hinted at and how does that affect the club 7. Has the club any debts 8 Has the club any unstated liabilities etc etc feel free to add yours in , it can be sent to the Jags Foundation to answer Due diligence is not merely a mechanism for gathering information. It is professional It is impartial It is conventional It is formal Hence “conventional formal professional independent due diligence” is the bare minimum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted March 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 31 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Due diligence is not merely a mechanism for gathering information. It is professional It is impartial It is conventional It is formal Hence “conventional formal professional independent due diligence” is the bare minimum You are describing how you think it should be done not the what which is simply getting information So get it done then should take a couple of hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 7 hours ago, javeajag said: Due Diligence is just mechanism for gathering information …..should the Jags Foundation know the financial situation of the club and any obligations that come with ownership ? Yes of course. The mechanism for getting that information you can call what you like but what information do we want that is not already known to the directors of the club , I’d be astonished if it’s anything at all. but to be constructive let’s start compiling our own due diligence information gathering …. 1. Has there been a loan from 3BC to the club 2. If yes, what are the terms of that loan 3. is there a monthly operating deficit 4. what is 3BCs relationship with the club after the share transfer 5. Who was involved in appointing Gary Caldwell 6. What is the ‘big announcement’ that’s been hinted at and how does that affect the club 7. Has the club any debts 8 Has the club any unstated liabilities etc etc feel free to add yours in , it can be sent to the Jags Foundation to answer Now I know he was a crap manager, but what had Caldwell to do with the transfer of club ownership? ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Just now, sandy said: Now I know he was a crap manager, but what had Caldwell to do with the transfer of club ownership? ! Don't you know? JL will only allow the shares to transfer if he comes back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 9 hours ago, javeajag said: I’m not fearful of DD …if directors don’t have access to the company information they are entitled to, then the the club is breaking company law and any director would be personally liable if they knowingly did that. So that’s not very likely. PTFC is a very small and very simple business and on this forum we could identify the few real questions about 10 and 20….. but if someone wants to pay someone to do it fine. My point is that all that information is currently available to the directors. Eg the terms of the loan from 3BC ( if that’s what it is ) as the club ie the directors had to agree to it. but we should not treat this as though fans are buying some multi national …..yes we need to know the financial situation of the club and any obligations if you want to call that DD fine by me its just tedious that the underlying assumption is always that somebody somewhere is trying to pull a fast one on a company with a turnover of c£1.5m ! It’s not about “pulling a fast one “ tjf need to stand up and say what fan ownership will mean to get sign ups ; they need to sell the benefits to potential members What fan ownership means depends on the current financial position if they get it wrong, fan ownership will have been sold on a false prospectus. I thought you of all people knew the dangers of NOT doing due diligence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.