Attendances Again

[yoda-jag]

If we had more variation (bigger leagues, regionalised league cup mini-leagues (as we've had in the past), scrapped or revamped challenge cup) it wouldn't guarantee better (technically or pleasing) football. What it would ensure is that clubs playing each other 4 times or more a season would be the exception not the norm. Such change may not bring the fans flooding back but imo would more than stem the haemorrhaging.

 

In agreement, 100%, with the good Lady, I am.

[Fearchar]

Wish it was that simple.

 

Once household bills are paid, fuel for car sorted for the month, finances paid to ex wife, finances paid to current wife, finances paid for kid with ex wife, finances paid for kid with current wife, small contribution made to credit card, car loan paid, money put aside to take wife out (current one not the ex !!!) then................OH BUGGER I'M WORSE OFF THAN DUNDEE !!!!!

So polygamy is undermining Scottish football?

[Jaggernaut]

If we had more variation (bigger leagues, regionalised league cup mini-leagues (as we've had in the past), scrapped or revamped challenge cup) it wouldn't guarantee better (technically or pleasing) football. What it would ensure is that clubs playing each other 4 times or more a season would be the exception not the norm. Such change may not bring the fans flooding back but imo would more than stem the haemorrhaging.

I'd love those changes to take place (heck, I'd even love to go back to the old 18-league 1st Division). And I hope they come to pass. But I don't think crowds will go up much at all. If you know your team isn't going to get relegated but isn't going to get above 10th or 11th, what's the big attraction to going to see another team in the same position?

 

Yes, I guess the first thing to try to do is stop the haemorrhaging (had to copy and paste that!), then we can try to cure the patient.

[Jaggernaut]

Wish it was that simple.

 

Once household bills are paid, fuel for car sorted for the month, finances paid to ex wife, finances paid to current wife, finances paid for kid with ex wife, finances paid for kid with current wife, small contribution made to credit card, car loan paid, money put aside to take wife out (current one not the ex !!!) then................OH BUGGER I'M WORSE OFF THAN DUNDEE !!!!!

Did you forget the current girlfriend?

[The Terminator]

So what would do it? As you talk about "Scottish football" in general it's not just us. Apart from the h u n s, tims, tarts, dons and hibees, other SPL clubs' gates struggle to make 5,000, 3-4,000 is probably average. Do you think that even "major" tweaks would double those figures? Somehow I don't. And yet, the football itself is surviving, and it will survive. The shape of it, the amount of money being borrowed etc may change, but it'll survive.

It is easily arguable that those bigger clubs aren't exactly escaping either though. All those clubs are suffering crowds-wise. Pittodrie in particular looks dreadful, 7000 or 8000 at the last game in a stadium capable of holding around 22,000. Rangers down to the low 40,000s now, Celtic down to who knows what and Hibs, fresh from expanding their ground, only get around 10,000 now. It's clear as day that everyone feels that what's on offer is mince, even those at the very top of our scale. Unfortunately it's far easier to lose support than it is to gain it.

[Uncle Psychosis]

Scottish football is struggling because it can't cope with the competition anymore. Cinema, Spanish/Italian/English football on the TV, other sports on TV, live music, home cinema, going out for a meal, etc etc. There are millions of alternative ways to spend your saturdays and pretty much all of them are better value for money than watching Thistle against Cowdenbeath. Imagine you were a neutral and just wanted to watch a game of footballl---why would you pay £17 to watch the Jags against Cowden when you can sit in the pub and watch much better games for free?

[Jaggernaut]

Scottish football is struggling because it can't cope with the competition anymore. Cinema, Spanish/Italian/English football on the TV, other sports on TV, live music, home cinema, going out for a meal, etc etc. There are millions of alternative ways to spend your saturdays and pretty much all of them are better value for money than watching Thistle against Cowdenbeath. Imagine you were a neutral and just wanted to watch a game of footballl---why would you pay £17 to watch the Jags against Cowden when you can sit in the pub and watch much better games for free?

Well, if that's what somebody chose to do regularly without giving any other kind of financial support to the Jags, I would call that person a pub/alcohol/tv supporter, not a Jags supporter.

[Blackpool Jags]

If we had more variation (bigger leagues, regionalised league cup mini-leagues (as we've had in the past), scrapped or revamped challenge cup) it wouldn't guarantee better (technically or pleasing) football. What it would ensure is that clubs playing each other 4 times or more a season would be the exception not the norm. Such change may not bring the fans flooding back but imo would more than stem the haemorrhaging.

 

Spot on.

 

Also, as I recall, a certain Thistle achievement, at a point in time not unadjacent to 39 years ago, came on the back of a qualifying mini-league or group.

[uberteeb]

So what would do it? As you talk about "Scottish football" in general it's not just us. Apart from the h u n s, tims, tarts, dons and hibees, other SPL clubs' gates struggle to make 5,000, 3-4,000 is probably average. Do you think that even "major" tweaks would double those figures? Somehow I don't. And yet, the football itself is surviving, and it will survive. The shape of it, the amount of money being borrowed etc may change, but it'll survive.

 

Thats the thing, I don't know and I don't pretend to know.

 

Personally I'm of the opinion that football in general (up to and including the Premiership) is going to go tits up this season. It's been done to death. There is too much of it. For example how long are Bolton fans going to keep interested for the way things are, they don't go up, they don't go down, they don't play particularly entertaining football, they don't have a good atmosphere in the stadium, etc.

 

Basically I'm not particularly excited about going to watch Thistle right now, I've been opting for overtime over a few away games this season (finalising a flat deposit). I couldn't be arsed with the Challenge Cup game against Ayr so didn't go to that. I didn't go to Stirling at home because I stayed in the pub, a mates dad who is a good laugh and who I hardly ever see was there, he wasn't going to the game, I opted to stay and drink with him while the others went. That was my lowest ebb, being in a pub in Maryhill with my scarf beside me and not going, although crucially my season ticket remained in my pocket so the club didn't lose money.

 

Do I want to go and watch us play poorly at Dundee for the priveledge of £19 and the ********* stewards at Dens? Not really. I'm normally the organiser of our away trips, unless someone is keen to go and sends round all the texts, checks the train times, etc then there is a fair chance I'll opt for overtime again.

 

Ultimately going to the football isn't particularly fun this season. Winning would help but there is much much much more to it than that.

[Jagtastic]

Scottish football is struggling because it can't cope with the competition anymore. Cinema, Spanish/Italian/English football on the TV, other sports on TV, live music, home cinema, going out for a meal, etc etc. There are millions of alternative ways to spend your saturdays and pretty much all of them are better value for money than watching Thistle against Cowdenbeath. Imagine you were a neutral and just wanted to watch a game of footballl---why would you pay £17 to watch the Jags against Cowden when you can sit in the pub and watch much better games for free?

 

There is very rarely live football on tv anywhere at 3pm on a Saturday. If anything you can go to the Jags game and make it back to the pub in time for the start of the evening matches.

[Jaggernaut]

Thats the thing, I don't know and I don't pretend to know.

 

Personally I'm of the opinion that football in general (up to and including the Premiership) is going to go tits up this season. It's been done to death. There is too much of it. For example how long are Bolton fans going to keep interested for the way things are, they don't go up, they don't go down, they don't play particularly entertaining football, they don't have a good atmosphere in the stadium, etc.

 

Basically I'm not particularly excited about going to watch Thistle right now, I've been opting for overtime over a few away games this season (finalising a flat deposit). I couldn't be arsed with the Challenge Cup game against Ayr so didn't go to that. I didn't go to Stirling at home because I stayed in the pub, a mates dad who is a good laugh and who I hardly ever see was there, he wasn't going to the game, I opted to stay and drink with him while the others went. That was my lowest ebb, being in a pub in Maryhill with my scarf beside me and not going, although crucially my season ticket remained in my pocket so the club didn't lose money.

 

Do I want to go and watch us play poorly at Dundee for the priveledge of £19 and the ********* stewards at Dens? Not really. I'm normally the organiser of our away trips, unless someone is keen to go and sends round all the texts, checks the train times, etc then there is a fair chance I'll opt for overtime again.

 

Ultimately going to the football isn't particularly fun this season. Winning would help but there is much much much more to it than that.

Of course I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying your (live) football this season. Although Thistle's performances have at times been dire, there are also some chinks of light, and I still enjoy some of the looney/funny comments from the punters. Agreed that there is too much football on tv, of the overhyped variety. As a season ticket-holder, you cannot be blamed if other things turn up that you prefer doing, at least you've given the club your support up front. What's more worrying is the pay-as-you-go punters that find more and more reasons (excuses) for actively deciding to spend their money on other things; and here I'm not talking about financial obligations such as family, rent, food etc. I'm talking about money that is available to spend, but goes to the pub, for example. Those are the punters that we really need to worry about.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Jaggernaut

[allyo]

The biggest problem for me is definitely the cost. You have to ask where First Division football sits in the big scheme of things. It cost me £25 to see Scotland playing Spain and it would cost me £5 to watch my local team, Arthurlie. In both cases the atmosphere would be better as you'd have a ground which is appropriate for the crowd. Thistle and Arthulie players are interchangable, it wouldn't be unusual for a player to move from one club to the other. Thistle and Spain players are not. Yet it costs £17 to see Thistle play Cowdenbeath.

Scottish club football as a whole has been so seriously mis-managed by the authorities and the clubs that we now have expensive facilities and overpaid players and the ever decreasing number of fans are being asked to pay vastly over the odds in the name of loyalty, but not value. The way things are now, with people trying to reduce their outgoings, this is not sustainable. It's no wonder crowds are down.

I don't think there is any place for full-time football outside of the top 5 or six clubs. I hope the clubs all wake up to this together, before they individually go under. I can't see that part-time football across the board would significantly reduce the quality, and if lower costs brought the fans back it could improve atmospheres and start to encourage more people to return. I think it'll happen eventually, the question is whether the clubs wait for a few more to go out of business and their own debts to mount before they start acting.

[Jaggernaut]

 

I don't think there is any place for full-time football outside of the top 5 or six clubs. I hope the clubs all wake up to this together, before they individually go under. I can't see that part-time football across the board would significantly reduce the quality, and if lower costs brought the fans back it could improve atmospheres and start to encourage more people to return. I think it'll happen eventually, the question is whether the clubs wait for a few more to go out of business and their own debts to mount before they start acting.

Several problems here. So do you see a top division of 5 or 6 full-time teams and the rest all part-timers, even more doomed to an inevitable relegation zone seasons before a ball gets kicked than we currently see? And why would that be attractive for those teams' fans that would bring them rolling back? As you indicate, there is already plenty of part-time football in the junior leagues, and they have lots of cup competitions, yet their crowds are usually no more than a hundred or two.

 

But you're definitely right about the way the price of getting into the football is rising, especially these days since almost everybody is noticing that money goes less far. Clubs are in real danger of losing more fans through rising admission costs.

[mrD]

the rememdy of league reconstruction is no longer sufficient for bringing scottish football back to life. society has moved on as stated eloquently elsewhere. and scottish football is incapable of reforming itself anyway. so we are left with utopian visions that would be ineffectual even if activated. so whats the alternative for us. I'd say to think as an independant agent (which is all we can do) and try to move to a context that is more fitting for our development. The english league.

 

The old firm were the first to realise this - i suspect in a few years we will see many clubs starting to explore this option. it would be great if we were the first to give it a go.

[Mr Bunny]

The solution (IMO of course) is to change the set up from a league of clubs as lots of individual businesses to a league which is just one big business. Resources of all clubs (gate money, TV money, sponsorship, advertising, etc) are doled out between clubs based on league position (I don't mean with the big gap between the Old Firm and the rest we get now, just enough to make getting to or near to the top would be worthwhile) and a cap on wages is imposed - allowing gate prices to be reduced slightly or at least frozen for a few years. This would have to start at the top and if spread to lower leagues would have to be combined with smaller divisions and a pyramid system.

 

I believe this would lead to more competition, more interest in the game and bigger crowds. The argument against is that standards would drop but in fact our league is already crap. In fact in a league where non-old-firm teams had much more chance of success, teams could improve as they'd see it would be worthwhile having a real go. It would in fact encourage more home bred players to be developed as over-paid foreigners would leave. So too would the very small number of really good Scottish players but they tend to end up at Rantic at the moment so no great loss.

 

Of course you don't have to tell me there isn't a chance of them even considering the above.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Mr Bunny

[Jaggernaut]

the rememdy of league reconstruction is no longer sufficient for bringing scottish football back to life. society has moved on as stated eloquently elsewhere. and scottish football is incapable of reforming itself anyway. so we are left with utopian visions that would be ineffectual even if activated. so whats the alternative for us. I'd say to think as an independant agent (which is all we can do) and try to move to a context that is more fitting for our development. The english league.

 

The old firm were the first to realise this - i suspect in a few years we will see many clubs starting to explore this option. it would be great if we were the first to give it a go.

You mean we should play in the English League?

 

Who would be able to afford to follow the team to matches (in terms of time and money)?

 

Here's my suggestion for a laugh (honestly coming into my head for the first time as I type): two regional leagues in Scotland (central and southern, eastern and Highland). Each has 10 teams, and they each play each other twice (18 games). Top five and bottom five from each then merge (another 18 games each). At the end of the season, bottom team from lower league automatically relegated. If lowest team from the other regional league is 2nd bottom, also automatically relegated; if not will play against highest-placed team from same region in the division below.

 

That would allow the OF (and us?) to play each other the usual number of times, the east-coast mobs would get their derby matches and the OF, there'd be more variety........ Hmm, not a bad idea if I say so myself.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Jaggernaut

[uberteeb]

I don't blame any stay away fan for not going to Firhill to watch pish football in a pish environment with a pish atmosphere for an absolutely horrendous price.

 

If you can go and watch a blockbuster film in the cinema for £12 would you be happy to pay £4 to sit in a bus stop and watch home made videos of me and my mates larking around on holiday on my mobile phone? You might be sitting somewhere to watch a film but the quality is vastly different.

 

We are charging a third of what it costs to go and watch the big teams in England play in their big stadiums with good players and loud atmospheres. For the money you are getting comparitive dog turds at Firhill.

 

That is why I think football is going to go tits up, delusions of granduer. Why do we have so many polis on match days? Why do the stewards do their bizarre choreographed sweep up and down the stairs? We don't need any of that crap, we are going down the toilet like everyone else.

[lennythistle]

I don't blame any stay away fan for not going to Firhill to watch pish football in a pish environment with a pish atmosphere for an absolutely horrendous price.

 

If you can go and watch a blockbuster film in the cinema for £12 would you be happy to pay £4 to sit in a bus stop and watch home made videos of me and my mates larking around on holiday on my mobile phone? You might be sitting somewhere to watch a film but the quality is vastly different.

 

We are charging a third of what it costs to go and watch the big teams in England play in their big stadiums with good players and loud atmospheres. For the money you are getting comparitive dog turds at Firhill.

 

That is why I think football is going to go tits up, delusions of granduer. Why do we have so many polis on match days? Why do the stewards do their bizarre choreographed sweep up and down the stairs? We don't need any of that crap, we are going down the toilet like everyone else.

 

I understand you have lost your desire to go to games just now, must admit after stirling I had no desire to go to any matches for the foreseeable future. Thing is, if the club is in your blood then you do go along , or at the very least when you can....Sure there are other alternatives and times are hard for everyone just now. Sure the ground isn't as good as it should be but it sure isn't as bad as you suggest. Yeah the atmosphere isn't the best, but again been a damn site worse over the years. sure, we don't have the best Partick thistle team there has been but again no where near the worst. Not the best manager but again, no where near the worst.

 

There are a good few things at Firhill to be optimistic about, Youth set up probably being the highlight at the moment.....Fact it, for better or worse we all became Partick Thistle supporters....we don't always have to be happy with our lot but fact we are Partick Thistle supporters should still make us proud and happy.

 

I'll be at the John Bishop gig on Friday night. I've seen him before and i expect to have an outstanding nights entertainment on Friday. Should jags beat dundee on Saturday....my gig on Friday will come no where near making me feel as happy as i will do on saturday night.

 

MON THE JAGS

[Jaggernaut]

I don't blame any stay away fan for not going to Firhill to watch pish football in a pish environment with a pish atmosphere for an absolutely horrendous price.

 

If you can go and watch a blockbuster film in the cinema for £12 would you be happy to pay £4 to sit in a bus stop and watch home made videos of me and my mates larking around on holiday on my mobile phone? You might be sitting somewhere to watch a film but the quality is vastly different.

 

We are charging a third of what it costs to go and watch the big teams in England play in their big stadiums with good players and loud atmospheres. For the money you are getting comparitive dog turds at Firhill.

 

That is why I think football is going to go tits up, delusions of granduer. Why do we have so many polis on match days? Why do the stewards do their bizarre choreographed sweep up and down the stairs? We don't need any of that crap, we are going down the toilet like everyone else.

Jeez, are you Red Monkey in disguise?

[Steven H]

I'd love those changes to take place (heck, I'd even love to go back to the old 18-league 1st Division). And I hope they come to pass. But I don't think crowds will go up much at all. If you know your team isn't going to get relegated but isn't going to get above 10th or 11th, what's the big attraction to going to see another team in the same position?

 

Yes, I guess the first thing to try to do is stop the haemorrhaging (had to copy and paste that!), then we can try to cure the patient.

 

There's the problem right there, this change in attitude is what's led to dwindling crowds. Although when you check the crowds during the 80s when mid-table was virtually gauranteed for Thistle at the start of every season there isn't really much difference. It seems to me tho that the pride of following your Club through thick and thin far outweighed final league positions....that attitude has changed imo.

 

One for those who are into this sorta thing, but I wonder how 'average crowds through the decades' would pan out. If someone can be bothered to check, would we see much difference over the years? I'd guess the 80s would be lowest but then we didn't have the benefit of a few years in the Premier League/SPL during that decade

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I can't really believe that reducing prices will have that much of a positive effect on attendances. Most fans have to travel to home games, they'll have some grub and a couple of pints etc as part of their day at the football. These costs are never going to come down. So say the additional costs are £20-£25 that would make a day at Firhill £37-£42. Reduce the gate price to £10-£12 it's still going to cost the punter £30-£37. A considerable reduction but still quite a cost.

Same goes for Dens Pk, whether it's average gate prices instead of £19 it's not going to make a trip up there significantly cheaper. I'm sure most folk view the £19 charge from the principle point of view and not because they couldn't afford to fork out an extra £2-£3.

Reducing gate prices and serving up the same old tosh won't work. Putting a better product on the park just might.

[northernsoul]

Jeez, are you Red Monkey in disguise?

 

Just the type of poster (including others) that it was made pretty clear folk didn't want on here?

[uberteeb]

Jeez, are you Red Monkey in disguise?

 

No. Just someone who has been going to virtually every Thistle game home or away for a considerable time who for a reason he can't quite understand doesn't really have much passion for it at the minute.

 

It can't be the quality on the park, thats been far worse and not put me off before.

[Jaggernaut]

No. Just someone who has been going to virtually every Thistle game home or away for a considerable time who for a reason he can't quite understand doesn't really have much passion for it at the minute.

 

It can't be the quality on the park, thats been far worse and not put me off before.

Seasonal Affective Disorder?

[Muscat Jag]

The product is rubbish (not just by us) & it will take a hell of an improvement to make me go regularly again. I don't expect world class football, but I do expect some kind entertainment when I go & see the Jags. The feeling by some that 'we played well' & 'there were good performances' by some players shows how low the level of expectation has become. We were poor & Cowdenbeath were worse, how many shots did we actually have on target?

 

Right, that's it. I've had enough of this. It is exactly this type of negative drivel that is killing Thistle. Well stay away then Mr so-called Jaggy; stay in your EK ivory tower. I hope you get bloody well snowed in all winter!!!!

 

I'll tell what, I challenge you turn up in the Aitken Suite at the next Thistle home game and repeat your negative bile to my face. Aye, not feeling so big now are you Mr Jaggy.

 

Oh, and another thing, the weather here is absolutely wonderful. Will be sitting out in the Dolphin Club tomorrow and Thursday night drinking ice cold beer, watching the sun disappear over the mountains. Missing it? And finally in addition to Firhill on the 13th, you will be at the Stirling cup game, no excuses entertained. Keep the faith!