The Bertie Years

[beep0608]

The Bertie Years. Sounds a bit like The Wonder Years. In some ways they were...

 

Missing out of the first Premier was painful but the promotion next season was fantastic, especially beating Killie 2-0 at Firhill in what was a virtual decider. I can still remember Joe Craig smashing that point blank shot into the roof of the net from almost on the line. There's a great pic of it in Ian Archer's Jags book.

 

We were successful then, as successful as a club our size could ever get really, but I was at school and took the "boring Thistle" jibes to heart. It was a bit like Rangers a couple of seasons ago, maybe a bit anyway, sitting back and hitting on the break, but it wasn't exactly playing the game. I remember Motherwell getting that accusation a few years later, but it wasn't fun when we were doing that. In fact I all but stopped going for a while.

 

Confession done. Thoughts?

[JeanieD]

The Joe Craig goal in the picture was actually from the League Cup match earlier in the season (won 2-0) but played in August. The League game was played in January and the weather/light/crowd wouldn't have been the same.

 

As for Auld's tactics - well they were effective and certainly kept us in the Premier League but for me the problem was that when you look at the players he has at his disposal the team was perhaps far more capable of winning games through attacking rather than the rather sterile "not losing" (or stealing goals at places such as Tynecastle) tactics that were employed.

 

Having said that, Auld was, for me, probably the second best manager I have been witness to at Firhill - although he was a considerable way behind McParland.

[Martin]

Having said that, Auld was, for me, probably the second best manager I have been witness to at Firhill - although he was a considerable way behind McParland.

 

Where would you place Lambie?

[gianlucatoni]

Having said that, Auld was, for me, probably the second best manager I have been witness to at Firhill - although he was a considerable way behind McParland.

 

My abiding memory of the bold Bertie was getting called up to his office and told that and I was out as I wasn't good enough - chewed on a stubbed cigar while he spat out the words, picked up the phone and pointed to the door. Molly mopped up my tears and made me a cup of tea. Only hay fever has made my eyes water since then.

[Barney Rubble]

My abiding memory of the bold Bertie was getting called up to his office and told that and I was out as I wasn't good enough - chewed on a stubbed cigar while he spat out the words, picked up the phone and pointed to the door. Molly mopped up my tears and made me a cup of tea. Only hay fever has made my eyes water since then.

 

Hey Gianluca!!

 

Whya you so sadda?

 

Bertie had to sacka you because Dougie Somner wassa de man atta the time!! And he hadda better hairstyle too!!

 

Disclaimer for Admin - this message is a bit of humour with my friend Gianluca............honest!!

[lady-isobel-barnett]

As for Auld's tactics - well they were effective and certainly kept us in the Premier League but for me the problem was that when you look at the players he has at his disposal the team was perhaps far more capable of winning games through attacking rather than the rather sterile "not losing" (or stealing goals at places such as Tynecastle) tactics that were employed.

My long held view was similar. I felt we were relatively successful in spite ofBertie or put another way I thought with the players we had we would have been relatively successful regardless of the manager. I admired Auld for his signings and his man management but less for his tactics. I know I was far from alone with those views.

Over the years and in hindsight I've had to re-evaluate my opinion about Bertie. Just about any lower/mid placed SPL side for years now has played to tactics no more positive than Auld's. I wouldn't go so far to say Bertie was a tactical genius but I would say he was ahead of his time and a realist. Undoubtedly an excellent manager.

[gianlucatoni]

Hey Gianluca!!

 

Whya you so sadda?

 

Bertie had to sacka you because Dougie Somner wassa de man atta the time!! And he hadda better hairstyle too!!

 

Disclaimer for Admin - this message is a bit of humour with my friend Gianluca............honest!!

 

 

hey welcome back barney boy - mamma mia!! - you outta your huff with admin and izza your toffee apple back in the pram?

p.s. - now we wait on a bollocking from admin tick...tock...

[nylo]

Met Bertie in Morrisons in EastKilbride on wednesday. he seemed disappointed in hearing how shite things were at the moment at Firhill.

[Winter of '63]

I have mixed feelings about The Bertie Years.

 

Although we were not a cavalier attacking side, I never thought we were quite as negative as we were made out to be...we just had a brilliant keeper & some outstanding defenders - Alan Rough,Jackie Campbell,Andy Anderson, Alan Hansen

 

In Bertie's early years, Thistle were a very good side with a combination of home-grown talent (nurtured by David McParland) and some shrewd signings - Doug Somner,Dave McKinnon,John Craig,Colin McAdam. We won the First Division easily, survived comfortably for several seasons in the Premier League(10 teams, 2 relegated)and reached Cup Semi-Finals in successive years.

 

However, latterly Bertie seemed more concerned with promoting himself as a "character" - good players were transferred and replaced by journeymen professionals and the supply of good youngsters dried up. Blackpool Jags has posted about Thistle missing out on a young Frank McDougall and my recollection is that Auld also rejected Frank McAvennie and Peter Weir after trials. All three went on to have great careers while Thistle slid towards mediocrity.

 

Towards the end of his term, Bertie was pretty unpopular - I distinctly remember Opposition Supporters singing "If you hate Bertie Auld, clap your hands" and Thistle fans enthusiastically joining in.

 

Bertie's Legacy? Some good times but for me Auld's time marked the change from Thistle being a genuinely well-liked top-flight club known for entertaining football and producing great young players to a near-anonymous "difficult-to-beat" lower league team, with players who hadn't made the grade with other clubs.

[jaggy]

Having said that, Auld was, for me, probably the second best manager I have been witness to at Firhill - although he was a considerable way behind McParland.

McParland had only 2 good seasons (one of which was in the old 2nd division) which included of course an unbelievable cup final. I think in the modern era (60's onwards) he is 3rd behind Bertie & Lambie

[JeanieD]

McParland had only 2 good seasons (one of which was in the old 2nd division) which included of course an unbelievable cup final. I think in the modern era (60's onwards) he is 3rd behind Bertie & Lambie

 

 

The beauty of football, and especially Thistle, is that it encourages a wide range of disparate opinion - for me McParland was, and always will be, the finest Thistle manager. As you say his tenure was relatively short but in that time he took over a relegation bound team, dismantled it, rebuilt, won promotion, won a national trophy and played some hugely attractive football - he also signed the backbone of the Auld team. Furthermore he left when he was effectively betrayed by the Board and perhaps his work was left unfinished.

 

I will admit that Auld, and later Lambie, were far more "showmen" (crypto-"characters") than McParland ever was so perhaps the force of their "personalities" has carried a longer lasting legacy, but for me the team managed by McParland from 1970 - 1974 has never been, and will never be, surpassed.

[Lindau]

The beauty of football, and especially Thistle, is that it encourages a wide range of disparate opinion - for me McParland was, and always will be, the finest Thistle manager. As you say his tenure was relatively short but in that time he took over a relegation bound team, dismantled it, rebuilt, won promotion, won a national trophy and played some hugely attractive football - he also signed the backbone of the Auld team. Furthermore he left when he was effectively betrayed by the Board and perhaps his work was left unfinished.

 

I will admit that Auld, and later Lambie, were far more "showmen" (crypto-"characters") than McParland ever was so perhaps the force of their "personalities" has carried a longer lasting legacy, but for me the team managed by McParland from 1970 - 1974 has never been, and will never be, surpassed.

 

Totally agree. The team Davie built in such a short period of time was fantastic and I doubt we will ever reach those heights ever again

[jaggy]

The beauty of football, and especially Thistle, is that it encourages a wide range of disparate opinion - for me McParland was, and always will be, the finest Thistle manager. As you say his tenure was relatively short but in that time he took over a relegation bound team, dismantled it, rebuilt, won promotion, won a national trophy and played some hugely attractive football - he also signed the backbone of the Auld team. Furthermore he left when he was effectively betrayed by the Board and perhaps his work was left unfinished.

 

I will admit that Auld, and later Lambie, were far more "showmen" (crypto-"characters") than McParland ever was so perhaps the force of their "personalities" has carried a longer lasting legacy, but for me the team managed by McParland from 1970 - 1974 has never been, and will never be, surpassed.

Maybe I was just a little bit young to appreciate the McParland era, but I don't remember us being particularly great during 72/73 & 73/74 seasons (I have to be honest and say I can remember exactly when Auld took over) Football is a bit like music in that we all remember certain periods as being better than others and for me it is the Auld era I remember best from that time

[Blackpool Jags]

Some really insightful posts on this thread all of which I at least part agree with.

 

For me, and after a long think about it, I'd go with Davie McP just ahead of the other two. This is largely based on the fact that I was in my early teens and can vividly remember the 'tingle' I felt at so many improbable results that we pulled off under Davie.

 

Under Bertie, as is mentioned above, we had become a more settled and consistently difficult team to beat. This represented a new and welcome state of affairs at Firhill and I have very fond memories of the up-and-at-'em, fear no-one approach that Bertie instilled in his teams.

 

Lambie, again, a totally different kettle of fish, is responsible for rekindling my 'Thistleness', whatever that is.

 

In a nutshell, I'd take any one of them right now over what we've been served up since Lambie's farewell.

 

Monni Thistle.

[Meister Jag]

 

In a nutshell, I'd take any one of them right now over what we've been served up since Lambie's farewell.

 

Monni Thistle.

 

Agree totally... I look back on the Auld years as being a lot of great away days when I really didn't didn't care if we didn't take all of the points; but I always set off knowing we were capable of at least one. I was off the leash and allowed to go to away games. Happy days.

 

I guess Bertie's passion for defence came from the part of the game he thought he understood, but with some of the players mentioned, he could have been a little more adventurous. McParland achieved more and then Lambie again later on, but Bertie didn't let the club down; not when compare to some of the warmers who were then allowed to manage the club. When you look at the records of one or two e.g. Derek Johnstone and more recently Dick Campbell, you wonder how we ever survived!

 

In conclusion and IMO, certainly not the worst and defo' a character and a half. 7 out of 10?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Maybe I was just a little bit young to appreciate the McParland era, but I don't remember us being particularly great during 72/73 & 73/74 seasons (I have to be honest and say I can remember exactly when Auld took over) Football is a bit like music in that we all remember certain periods as being better than others and for me it is the Auld era I remember best from that time

I feel that Davie McP has to be given a bit more latitude as he played so many younger players. Bertie A definitely benefited from McParland from that either from those youngsters themselves maturing into steady players or indirectly from the proceeds of their sale.

Something tho' that's just occurred to me (or certainly long forgotten) has to do with league reconstruction back in the seventies. I wonder if Davie McParland would have been, for want of a more appropriate word, as cavalier in his management style had the top league been only 10 teams. More realistically had Bertie managed us in a top league of 18 teams would he have had us playing a bit more gung ho? Genuinely like to know the consensus of opinion re that.

Edited December 4, 2010 by lady-isobel-barnett

[JeanieD]

 

Something tho' that's just occurred to me (or certainly long forgotten) has to do with league reconstruction back in the seventies. I wonder if Davie McParland would have been, for want of a more appropriate word, as cavalier in his management style had the top league been only 10 teams. More realistically had Bertie managed us in a top league of 18 teams would he have had us playing a bit more gung ho? Genuinely like to know the consensus of opinion re that.

 

Now that is a very good point - the circumstances a manager finds himself in almost certainly dictate the manner in which his teams are "forced" to play.

 

I seem to remember that the season we failed to get into the new set up Auld had a fairly attacking philosophy - and certainly his 1st Division winning team was attractive to watch (mind you he had Rough, Anderson, A Hansen, Joe Craig and Somner as the spine of the team). Once we got into the "Premier League" the philosophy did change (as did some of the personnel) so perhaps Bertie wouldn't have been so cautious had circumstances permitted.

[Mr Bunny]

Now that is a very good point - the circumstances a manager finds himself in almost certainly dictate the manner in which his teams are "forced" to play.

 

I seem to remember that the season we failed to get into the new set up Auld had a fairly attacking philosophy - and certainly his 1st Division winning team was attractive to watch (mind you he had Rough, Anderson, A Hansen, Joe Craig and Somner as the spine of the team). Once we got into the "Premier League" the philosophy did change (as did some of the personnel) so perhaps Bertie wouldn't have been so cautious had circumstances permitted.

 

Agree with a lot that's been said. I'd also like to add that to my mind (and my admittedly feeble memory) all of the teams outside the Old Firm and and Aberdeen (who were very strong back then) played defensively away from home, even at Firhill. I seem to recall Morton sitting back in their own half against us and other teams did too. It wasn't that they feared us more than anyone else, just seemed the way the game was played then.

 

It may have been as a couple of posts have suggested the fear caused by the 10-team league. I don't honestly think we were more defensive than any other team outside the top 3 teams. If anyone wants to bring up Dundee Utd by the way, they were defensive away but they had such a lot of pace up front they were devastating on the break - I seem to remember a few hammerings from them.

[crazy davie]

Under Bertie, as is mentioned above, we had become a more settled and consistently difficult team to beat. This represented a new and welcome state of affairs at Firhill and I have very fond memories of the up-and-at-'em, fear no-one approach that Bertie instilled in his teams.

Exactly how I remember the Auld days (see what I did there?). Bertie's teams were so in-yer-face, particularly the forwards for some reason...

[Jaggernaut]

Excellent thread.

[jaggy]

I wonder if only 2 points for a win in those days made a difference away? a point away from home was more valuable then (maybe?)

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I wonder if only 2 points for a win in those days made a difference away? a point away from home was more valuable then (maybe?)

Hadn't thought about that. Very valid.

[stuthejag]

My abiding memory of the bold Bertie was getting called up to his office and told that and I was out as I wasn't good enough - chewed on a stubbed cigar while he spat out the words, picked up the phone and pointed to the door. Molly mopped up my tears and made me a cup of tea. Only hay fever has made my eyes water since then.

 

So was Bertie right or did you continue your career elsewhere?

[beep0608]

The Joe Craig goal in the picture was actually from the League Cup match earlier in the season (won 2-0) but played in August. The League game was played in January and the weather/light/crowd wouldn't have been the same.

 

As for Auld's tactics - well they were effective and certainly kept us in the Premier League but for me the problem was that when you look at the players he has at his disposal the team was perhaps far more capable of winning games through attacking rather than the rather sterile "not losing" (or stealing goals at places such as Tynecastle) tactics that were employed.

 

Having said that, Auld was, for me, probably the second best manager I have been witness to at Firhill - although he was a considerable way behind McParland.

 

Yes, turned into a good thread. I do remember some great matches, like the time we beat Rangers 3-2 midweek, or was it 4-3? I think Alan Hansen scored 2, one of them a cracker from outside the box, or are my memories wrong about that like they were of the Joe Craig goal v Killie? I remember the goal clearly so must have been at both games. At one point as I walked behind the goal we were attacking towards the end of the game, with us well on top, I heard 2 Killie fans pointing out how we were passing the ball around them, as in, that's the way to do it. A fine memory alright.

 

My 2 Jags heroes remain Denis McQuade, who was gone by then I think, but especially......Jackie Campbell, not least because he played right through all of my early Jags years. I'll not be satisfied till he has his own place in the Hall Of Fame, and I'll keep going on about that till he does.

Edited December 7, 2010 by beep0608

[gianlucatoni]

So was Bertie right or did you continue your career elsewhere?

 

 

The s-form went down the pan that day - he was probably right as I hated training with a passion (no specialist keeper trainers back then) and enjoyed messing around more than anything - played for college, university, a number of the crappier juniors and a variety of amateur teams for the following 24 years after being shown the door - retired in the summer as I couldn't face another feckin pre-season ... had intended to chuck it 3 years ago but answered a call from Third Lanark and then had final 2 years at Robslee. Bertie was however much more polite than another old boy who grabbed me by the collar after one game in the early 90's and told me "f**k off and don't come back" for showing up without the club tie on!

 

The best thing is I don't miss it a bit.

I'd still rip off your hand for a chance to stand betweeen the sticks for the Jags though!