Defend The Indefensible

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

Off on a tangent or heading for the ropes? .. anyway, here goes..

 

Hope you're not one of those who have been saying that one's playing career should have no influence on one's reputation as a manager!

 

However, for sure cuntomarra will have made some good contacts during his illustrious career but as a manager he had won nothing, experienced only second tier scottish football at one club and got his big move after less than two years with a win% less than Archie achieved at that level. Johnston had a good career, play in the EPL but his international caps (i think) coincided with second tier english league football and inevitably "the rangers" a club he aw-weez wan-teed to play fur. Neil, did he play much above league1 in England with barnsley... i dunno... but again his rise in the managerial wanted list has been extremely swift.

 

Archie may not have been honoured with full caps, but he was voted player of the year by scumdee u-shited as they finished fifth in the league, played in a cup final and experienced top flight relegation battles for them. I don't know, ( McColl maybe swung it) but i imagine he had other offers before choosing a return to the at the time toiling jags. His later acceptance of management was no doubt a fortunate opportunity, but not without risk. And as you agree his stewardship and success during his first few months mean's "he's a hero". Although I agree that's a title easily lost, I'd say you'd be a harsh critic to argue that survival last year did anything other than cement that status.

 

A 2 club man, regardless of whether one questions his loyalty or whether it may be tested in the future, one has to agree that he must also have great affection for Thistle, a valuable understanding of how the club runs, a historic connection, an aquintance with the history and an aspiration to contribute to it's success.

 

Despite all this, sadly, but understandably given our financial shortfalls, all we can offer him in thanks is a one year rolling contract(?) ?

 

That's devotion for ya!

 

 

I'm not one of those who says that you should have a top class playing career to be a top class manager. However, more & more clubs are looking at going down that route, even in lower leagues, possibly because of contacts they have in the game & being able to attract players to their club? (I dunno)

 

Guys like Archibald & Canning have almost been in the right place at the right time with previous incumbents moving on then them being appointed caretaker then permanent.

 

As for the one year rolling contract, that's the way of it. Even the bigger clubs do it.

 

2 way thing. If he's a success we risk losing cheaply a la McNamara. If he's unsuccessful then it's not a fortune to pay him off.

[Dark Passenger]

I think it's inappropriate to mention Archie and Canning in the same breath. One improved his team's position while the other has (so far) overseen a dismal slump in results.

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I'm not one of those who says that you should have a top class playing career to be a top class manager. However, more & more clubs are looking at going down that route, even in lower leagues, possibly because of contacts they have in the game & being able to attract players to their club? (I dunno)

 

Guys like Archibald & Canning have almost been in the right place at the right time with previous incumbents moving on then them being appointed caretaker then permanent.

 

As for the one year rolling contract, that's the way of it. Even the bigger clubs do it.

 

2 way thing. If he's a success we risk losing cheaply a la McNamara. If he's unsuccessful then it's not a fortune to pay him off.

 

Given our unbeaten run to promotion it was the right place, right time and right man for us surely. I know, your arguement is more about, perhaps he's peaked, can take us no further, but there is at this time evidently continued ( though slower ) progress.

 

If the same were to happen now, who do we have waiting in the wings. Shaggy? he'd probably go with Archie... Stevenson? Gallagher? One of the thistle weir coaches ready for management and a relegation battle?

 

Truth is we'd probably have to get someone in. No doubt there'd be plenty applications. There always is. Maybe has something to do with clubs offering more job security to the talent than their managers.

 

Archie's not perfect, but right now I reckon he's a pretty good fit and has us in with a good chance of a third season of topflight football, something we haven't achieved for about 20 years. I wouldn't be so ready to dismiss Archie's status within the game and with Shaggy at his side, who started his pro-career in England, their network of contacts maybe not so unimpressive as to be totaly unfruitful in sourcing decent players for our level.

[allyo]

Put me down for automatic likes whenever CGMB posts on this thread

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

Given our unbeaten run to promotion it was the right place, right time and right man for us surely. I know, your arguement is more about, perhaps he's peaked, can take us no further, but there is at this time evidently continued ( though slower ) progress.

 

If the same were to happen now, who do we have waiting in the wings. Shaggy? he'd probably go with Archie... Stevenson? Gallagher? One of the thistle weir coaches ready for management and a relegation battle?

 

Truth is we'd probably have to get someone in. No doubt there'd be plenty applications. There always is. Maybe has something to do with clubs offering more job security to the talent than their managers.

 

Archie's not perfect, but right now I reckon he's a pretty good fit and has us in with a good chance of a third season of topflight football, something we haven't achieved for about 20 years. I wouldn't be so ready to dismiss Archie's status within the game and with Shaggy at his side, who started his pro-career in England, their network of contacts maybe not so unimpressive as to be totaly unfruitful in sourcing decent players for our level.

 

I'm unsure as to whether he has 'peaked' as you say but the football we played under McNamara & under his tenure last season has all but disappeared unless you're counting square balls in front of the opposition.

 

It also seems that teams have sussed us in terms of the way we will line up & how. More frustratingly, the manager is either unable or unwilling to change anything other than personnel from the start off one game to the other.

 

Anyone who suggests they would be quite happy playing first division football must be kidding themselves & others. It has been mentioned more than a few times over past few weeks on different threads.

 

We have the weakest top league for years (if not ever) & if, as we should do, stay up. Next season will be a major challenge with potentially Hearts & Hibs/Rangers coming up who will have bigger budgets than us.

 

So, next season we need the manager to potentially replace half the current team along with being savvy enough tactically to put points on the board, especially those who we'd consider being in our mini league.

 

The transfer debate is one thing but more importantly it's the results.

 

Do you think he knows his best 11 in current formation?

 

I guess with Taylor here it's him as starting CF but he had opportunity last week to play Stevenson in behind but chose not to.

 

Saturday's game potentially the biggest of season so far. I'll be interested to see team selection.

 

& for those who say about defence changing every other week & that's why lack of clean sheets etc, does the same not apply to forward/midfield combinations?

 

[Paulo]

Seems that there's almost a reasonable debate breaking out in this thread. Time to lock it?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I'm unsure as to whether he has 'peaked' as you say but the football we played under McNamara & under his tenure last season has all but disappeared unless you're counting square balls in front of the opposition.

 

It also seems that teams have sussed us in terms of the way we will line up & how. More frustratingly, the manager is either unable or unwilling to change anything other than personnel from the start off one game to the other.

 

Anyone who suggests they would be quite happy playing first division football must be kidding themselves & others. It has been mentioned more than a few times over past few weeks on different threads.

 

We have the weakest top league for years (if not ever) & if, as we should do, stay up. Next season will be a major challenge with potentially Hearts & Hibs/Rangers coming up who will have bigger budgets than us.

 

So, next season we need the manager to potentially replace half the current team along with being savvy enough tactically to put points on the board, especially those who we'd consider being in our mini league.

 

The transfer debate is one thing but more importantly it's the results.

 

Do you think he knows his best 11 in current formation?

 

I guess with Taylor here it's him as starting CF but he had opportunity last week to play Stevenson in behind but chose not to.

 

Saturday's game potentially the biggest of season so far. I'll be interested to see team selection.

 

& for those who say about defence changing every other week & that's why lack of clean sheets etc, does the same not apply to forward/midfield combinations?

 

The football we played under cuntomarra was in the first division, Archie continued with that, and whether it was purely confidence he added, he evidently improved it's effectiveness. Given his short tenure and small budget, it was understandable that the style of play was attempted to be continued last season. We survived on it but only by the skin of our teeth. Had hearts not had their points deduction we would only have escaped the play off by one goal and our tyncastle survival game may have been a totally different game.

 

We've lost some of the key players that contributed to promotion and the style we achieved it. Erskine, Paton, ATS and others have gone, Welsh has been long term injured and some have struggled with the step up a division, the pace and quality they now face. Last season there was criticism that the boss was too loyal to first div players, I thought it was more that he was to loyal to the formations and style. I think Archie recognises that now and is trying to shape the team to one that will be more effective, if perhaps not as attractive at this level. Given his budget, it is inevitable that this is a protracted process. That this has to happen in a perilious 12 team division where 2 teams can go down makes it all the harder for a manager to get the balance of style and entertainment over survival safely and effectively. Therefore, in consideration of injuries and suspensions, particularly in defensive areas (I might be wrong, but i think most managers will tend to build the team from the back), but also in midfield, it is admirable that we are not getting pumped more often.

 

I don't think our strongest starting 11 is obvious, which is no bad thing, as it does show some strength in depth. Though, I beleive Archie does, like we all might, have an idea of the team he would like to put out. I don't think this has been the case all season. For example, I said after the first few games, the problem with Stevenson was not that Archie was building the team around him but rather "shoe-horning" into the side and that he was being perhaps over reliant on Higgy. I think that the manager was maybe trying to force a plan onto a team to set in some consistency rather than experiment to find our best side. Perhaps, this is a problem, we'd all like to see a steady confident team playing "our way", taking control of games and bossing the opposition. I don't think, we got that sorted pre-season, and over the coarse of the season injuries and suspensions (and frustration in the transfer market) have ment constant adaptation of a plan that wasn't settled.

 

The Thistle job is not an easy one.

 

I could say more, I have like you alot of differences of opinion with how the gaffer sets out and plays the game. However, I do think the criticism of not changing things in game and ineffective subs is sometimes over-used. I agree that it is sometimes frustrating even baffling when he makes like for like subs, when one might think we have a chance to go on and win a game with more attacking changes or defend a lead with a more defensive change. BUT, as annoying as it is, and I know the game is 90 mins, the amount of late goals conceeded and the fact we tend to lose by the odd goal suggests that our squad is competitive.

 

This might be the "weakest" spl ever. But that does not make us giants. This is only our 4th year in the top flight in 20 or so and our competitors in the division are no less well equiped to takle the challenge. Next year, should we achieve the admirable success of avoiding relegation, there will be 2 more clubs with more auspicious reputations than ours ( if hibs beat sevco to the play-off and win it this time ). I think we are best placed to tackle that with some momentum of consistancy, and a manager who knows the Firhill job well, is familiar with its restrictions and limitations, and can continue to slowly and steadily build on what we have achieved so far.

 

Saturday's game is as important as the rest.

 

 

eta

Edited February 19, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[yoda-jag]

see this changing the manager argument?

 

in the past forty years (since the leagues reformed to a 10 in 76 then later a 12 team top league), not one of the managers that got us promoted to the top league has got us relegated ..... but every single one of their replacements have.

[read'n'yell]

I think the fundamental mistake by Archie since December, is putting out a team that you would describe as 'hard to beat'. He clearly thinks to avoid the play off's you need a solid team that can defend well. But actually, all this does is mean we never win games. We might only lose by one goal but we never win. I would much rather lose 3-0 then win 3-0 each week than what we have now.

 

You can't ignore defensive duties, but with four across the back as well as two sitting midfielders, we have more than enough cover. Put guys upfront that will create goals. Taylor, Higgy, Stevenson and one of Lawless or McDaid should be playing as our forward four. Not Elliot and Fraser. Fair enough sometimes Fraser if we want to tighten the game up, but not in games we want to go and win. This problem is arriving from Archie not dropping Banzo or Osman but seeing that Fraser really should be playing.

 

Back four, two sitting mids and four forwards please Archie - we would have such a higher points total, if perhaps a poorer goal difference.

 

Zero confidence of beating County, which will hopefully mean we win.

[Firhillista]

I think the fundamental mistake by Archie since December, is putting out a team that you would describe as 'hard to beat'. He clearly thinks to avoid the play off's you need a solid team that can defend well. But actually, all this does is mean we never win games. We might only lose by one goal but we never win. I would much rather lose 3-0 then win 3-0 each week than what we have now.

 

You can't ignore defensive duties, but with four across the back as well as two sitting midfielders, we have more than enough cover. Put guys upfront that will create goals. Taylor, Higgy, Stevenson and one of Lawless or McDaid should be playing as our forward four. Not Elliot and Fraser. Fair enough sometimes Fraser if we want to tighten the game up, but not in games we want to go and win. This problem is arriving from Archie not dropping Banzo or Osman but seeing that Fraser really should be playing.6

 

Back four, two sitting mids and four forwards please Archie - we would have such a higher points total, if perhaps a poorer goal difference.

 

We 'never win' games? Pardon? And have a look at our goals for record in comparison to the teams around us.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Firhillista

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

The football we played under cuntomarra was in the first division, Archie continued with that, and whether it was purely confidence he added, he evidently improved it's effectiveness. Given his short tenure and small budget, it was understandable that the style of play was attempted to be continued last season. We survived on it but only by the skin of our teeth. Had hearts not had their points deduction we would only have escaped the play off by one goal and our tyncastle survival game may have been a totally different game.

 

We've lost some of the key players that contributed to promotion and the style we achieved it. Erskine, Paton, ATS and others have gone, Welsh has been long term injured and some have struggled with the step up a division, the pace and quality they now face. Last season there was criticism that the boss was too loyal to first div players, I thought it was more that he was to loyal to the formations and style. I think Archie recognises that now and is trying to shape the team to one that will be more effective, if perhaps not as attractive at this level. Given his budget, it is inevitable that this is a protracted process. That this has to happen in a perilious 12 team division where 2 teams can go down makes it all the harder for a manager to get the balance of style and entertainment over survival safely and effectively. Therefore, in consideration of injuries and suspensions, particularly in defensive areas (I might be wrong, but i think most managers will tend to build the team from the back), but also in midfield, it is admirable that we are not getting pumped more often.

 

I don't think our strongest starting 11 is obvious, which is no bad thing, as it does show some strength in depth. Though, I beleive Archie does, like we all might, have an idea of the team he would like to put out. I don't think this has been the case all season. For example, I said after the first few games, the problem with Stevenson was not that Archie was building the team around him but rather "shoe-horning" into the side and that he was being perhaps over reliant on Higgy. I think that the manager was maybe trying to force a plan onto a team to set in some consistency rather than experiment to find our best side. Perhaps, this is a problem, we'd all like to see a steady confident team playing "our way", taking control of games and bossing the opposition. I don't think, we got that sorted pre-season, and over the coarse of the season injuries and suspensions (and frustration in the transfer market) have ment constant adaptation of a plan that wasn't settled.

 

The Thistle job is not an easy one.

 

I could say more, I have like you alot of differences of opinion with how the gaffer sets out and plays the game. However, I do think the criticism of not changing things in game and ineffective subs is sometimes over-used. I agree that it is sometimes frustrating even baffling when he makes like for like subs, when one might think we have a chance to go on and win a game with more attacking changes or defend a lead with a more defensive change. BUT, as annoying as it is, and I know the game is 90 mins, the amount of late goals conceeded and the fact we tend to lose by the odd goal suggests that our squad is competitive.

 

This might be the "weakest" spl ever. But that does not make us giants. This is only our 4th year in the top flight in 20 or so and our competitors in the division are no less well equiped to takle the challenge. Next year, should we achieve the admirable success of avoiding relegation, there will be 2 more clubs with more auspicious reputations than ours ( if hibs beat sevco to the play-off and win it this time ). I think we are best placed to tackle that with some momentum of consistancy, and a manager who knows the Firhill job well, is familiar with its restrictions and limitations, and can continue to slowly and steadily build on what we have achieved so far.

 

Saturday's game is as important as the rest.

 

 

eta

 

I don't buy this 'small budget so we shouldn't be surprised we're not playing as much football' arguement.

 

You only need to look at the club with the second biggest budget in the land & look how they're doing.

 

It starts at the top & you bring players in that you think will improve on what you've got.

 

The arguement that we survived by 'skin of our teeth' last season is different from those who argue that we were 90minscaway from 7th?!

 

As for Stevenson, if the manager is trying to 'shoehorn' him into the team then why did he sign him?

 

We're talking a guy who has been at the club since day 1 of pre season & yet you're suggesting the manager is almost unsure of where to play him?

 

The same for this so-called over reliance of Higgy. Good player? Certainly. As good as he thinks he is? Well, I'm not sure of that answer but if the fans think we have an over reliance on him then that'll come from the top then I'm also sure he believes that.

 

I'm getting from the rest of your post CGMB that you think next season is time to judge the manager. So if the same mistakes etc occur next season he's fair game but not now? The 6 months will see the end of his 'apprenticeship'?

 

& reason I say Saturday biggest game of season. Remember how poor Ross Co are. If we are made to look poor by them is it just another bad day at the office?

 

I doubt many of the support will see it like that especially given the results & performances in recent weeks.

 

It's not necessarily must win but if we lose then already poor crowds may become poorer.

 

Hopefully it won't come to that though.

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I think the fundamental mistake by Archie since December, is putting out a team that you would describe as 'hard to beat'. He clearly thinks to avoid the play off's you need a solid team that can defend well. But actually, all this does is mean we never win games. We might only lose by one goal but we never win. I would much rather lose 3-0 then win 3-0 each week than what we have now.

 

You can't ignore defensive duties, but with four across the back as well as two sitting midfielders, we have more than enough cover. Put guys upfront that will create goals. Taylor, Higgy, Stevenson and one of Lawless or McDaid should be playing as our forward four. Not Elliot and Fraser. Fair enough sometimes Fraser if we want to tighten the game up, but not in games we want to go and win. This problem is arriving from Archie not dropping Banzo or Osman but seeing that Fraser really should be playing.

 

Back four, two sitting mids and four forwards please Archie - we would have such a higher points total, if perhaps a poorer goal difference.

 

Zero confidence of beating County, which will hopefully mean we win.

 

Kinda agree on some of the personel, but I don't think 4-2-4 is the solution. 4-1-3-1 or 4-1-2-1-1 ( midfield diamond ) I think is where Archie and I almost agree. However, with the disruption to the back four over the season, and a history of flying full backs, (ATS gone but o'donnel still wants to attack) it has perhaps made midfielders less confident to push forward. Osman in front of a settled back four, i think is sufficient, and I'd also like to see Balatoni and BRE tried in his place for cover. (Did Aero muirhead not do it a parkhead in december? )

 

Early on there was much criticism of Craigen. But one thing I think it did tell us is that Archie wanted to play with one deep midfielder not 2. I don't really see Bannigan or Fraser as defensive midfielders. I think both lack some confidence and experience to play the roles Archie might want them to. I think both will improve. Bannigan in particluar has suffered because of his alleged versatility and has been somewhat denied finding a particular role to excell in.

 

I think your analyisis since december is a bit harsh. Of course we gotta be hard to beat, and I think we are given the late goals and odd goal defeats. I ain't gonna attempt to excuse every defeat nor am i happy with the run we are on. However, We beat caley away 4-0, Mcmillan plays silly buggers(allegedly) which forces us to play a midfielder at left back against 'well who promptly concedes a game deciding penalty bacause of poor positional play. First game this year and we have to play with a thread bare squad against a flying DU and make a creditable draw. Few would argue that it St.Mirren who parked the bus on us. Doolan scores 4 v Hamilton and we sign a striker..... In february! .... And Higgy's looses his finger up is 4r5e!!!!!

Edited February 19, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[yoda-jag]

Kinda agree on some of the personel, but I don't think 4-2-4 is the solution. 4-1-3-1 or 4-1-2-1-1 ( midfield diamond )

 

 

in a 4 2 4 we play with a keeper which equals eleven players.

 

if we are to play either 4 1 3 1 or 4 1 2 1 1, are you suggesting we field two goalies, or just play each game with ten men?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I don't buy this 'small budget so we shouldn't be surprised we're not playing as much football' arguement.

 

You only need to look at the club with the second biggest budget in the land & look how they're doing.

 

It starts at the top & you bring players in that you think will improve on what you've got.

 

The arguement that we survived by 'skin of our teeth' last season is different from those who argue that we were 90minscaway from 7th?!

 

As for Stevenson, if the manager is trying to 'shoehorn' him into the team then why did he sign him?

 

We're talking a guy who has been at the club since day 1 of pre season & yet you're suggesting the manager is almost unsure of where to play him?

 

The same for this so-called over reliance of Higgy. Good player? Certainly. As good as he thinks he is? Well, I'm not sure of that answer but if the fans think we have an over reliance on him then that'll come from the top then I'm also sure he believes that.

 

I'm getting from the rest of your post CGMB that you think next season is time to judge the manager. So if the same mistakes etc occur next season he's fair game but not now? The 6 months will see the end of his 'apprenticeship'?

 

& reason I say Saturday biggest game of season. Remember how poor Ross Co are. If we are made to look poor by them is it just another bad day at the office?

 

I doubt many of the support will see it like that especially given the results & performances in recent weeks.

 

It's not necessarily must win but if we lose then already poor crowds may become poorer.

 

Hopefully it won't come to that though.

 

Don't understand your logic regarding budgets. My point is that we are not so well off that we can afford players who might be our first choice or swift or ceratin replacements, and limits the scale, experience, security and proven quality of our squad. Regardless of how we play our competitors have budgets similar or better than ours with which to sign players of a similar or better quality to ours and/or take our best players away with more lucrative offers.

 

"Skin of the teeth" survival and 90mins from 7th are both true, not contradictory and only emphasises the point i've been making about the precarious nature of the 12 team league with potentially 2 for the drop.

 

Stevenson was signed because he is a good player, with much needed experience, I think. He is of a quality that most would say he deserves a starting spot but how he fits into the team, where he play's and how his skills are best used are i'd say although becoming clearer, still not fully resolved. This is not an uncommon problem. Fergusson and Van Gaal could probably spend hours debating where Rooney is best played or even left out.

 

Judging the manager is perpetual and should be of constant close scrutiny. The question is when is it appropriate to pass verdict? If the same mistakes continue over next year I'd say doubt over Archie's future with us is raised and questions over his ability may become more pertinant. However if he continues to avoid relegation, as frustrating as that is and though the ambition to climb higher must not be lost, given our league record over the last 20years, this would still be of definite worth and value to the club and the best platform on which to progress.

 

"Consolidation" as a premier league club is the main stated target. 2 years does not = consolidation.

 

Yes we may get a rise in attendence when the team plays well, but I'm convinced low crowds are more to do with the structure, inability and parochialism of Scottish football as a whole and the apathy and ritual it accepts, even takes for granted, from its audience.

 

Ross county might be sh1t3, but they have just beaten motherwell..... it's a tight league.... take nothing for granted.

 

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

in a 4 2 4 we play with a keeper which equals eleven players. if we are to play either 4 1 3 1 or 4 1 2 1 1, are you suggesting we field two goalies, or just play each game with ten men?

 

DOH!

 

4-1-4-1 or 4-1-3-1-1 .... I've posted too much already...

Edited February 19, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[allyo]

 

 

DOH!

 

4-1-4-1 or 4-1-3-1-1 .... I've posted too much already...

 

No you haven't. You're making my cocky one liners redundant. I'm finding myself cheering every line.

[Jaggernaut]

see this changing the manager argument?

 

in the past forty years (since the leagues reformed to a 10 in 76 then later a 12 team top league), not one of the managers that got us promoted to the top league has got us relegated ..... but every single one of their replacements have.

 

I'm intrigued by this. Any chance of providing the data (names etc.) to illustrate it?

[Tom Hosie]

I'm intrigued by this. Any chance of providing the data (names etc.) to illustrate it?

 

Promoted under Bertie Auld - Relegated under Peter Cormack

Promoted under John Lambie - Relegated under Murdo MacLeod

Promoted under John Lambie - Relegated under Gerry Britton and Derek Whyte (Gerry Collins had a wee hand in that as well)

Promoted under Alan Archibald - Relegated under a man who hasn't been born yet hopefully! :-)

[Barney Rubble]

So strictly speaking, John Lambie's replacement in 2003 did not get us relegated even though he was complicit in laying the groundwork for it.

[Jaggernaut]

Promoted under Bertie Auld - Relegated under Peter Cormack

Promoted under John Lambie - Relegated under Murdo MacLeod

Promoted under John Lambie - Relegated under Gerry Britton and Derek Whyte (Gerry Collins had a wee hand in that as well)

Promoted under Alan Archibald - Relegated under a man who hasn't been born yet hopefully! :-)

 

Thanks for that.

[BowenBoys]

Murdo F***ing MacLeod

[javeajag]

Dreadful today and could easily have been 5-1

Manager clueless

[Garscube Road End]

**** me! Didn't take you long did it?

[javeajag]

Well since I live near the stadium i would have said it took me ages

Were you at the game ?

[Dark Passenger]

I can't defend that anymore.