Meet the Manager - Tuesday 6pm

[Auld Jag]

20 minutes ago, allyo said:

Nothing at all wrong with a bit of belief. I admire you for it. I wouldn't argue against it either, we need to have that belief. And I'm not arguing that form wasn't generally poor before he arrived. What I am arguing is that he didn't inherit a hopeless case, he inherited something with potential to be far better than it was showing. And therefore I don't think there are excuses and I don't think there has been progress, and there has to be soon.

Agree. As I have said he didn't turn up  at the interview saying he would not be able to do anything with our current squad. Remember he was very impressive at his interview. Yet only a few weeks back he was quoted as saying he cant just snap his fingers and get a result.3Big games coming up this month at Firhill. Everyone of them is winnable imo.

[Jag]

1 hour ago, allyo said:

Nothing at all wrong with a bit of belief. I admire you for it. I wouldn't argue against it either, we need to have that belief. And I'm not arguing that form wasn't generally poor before he arrived. What I am arguing is that he didn't inherit a hopeless case, he inherited something with potential to be far better than it was showing. And therefore I don't think there are excuses and I don't think there has been progress, and there has to be soon.

At no point, even though you used the word earlier with inverted commas, did I state that one point out of eighteen is progress.  Did anybody?

Caldwell inherited a team that had just lost five out their last six games. Of the five losses we deserved to lose every one of them and they looked pretty hopeless to me. It is taking longer than anybody had hoped for him to turn things round but performances in the last few weeks have given me encouragement and I don't think it will be long before we start to climb the table. 

[allyo]

4 hours ago, Jag said:

31 minutes ago, Jag said:

At no point, even though you used the word earlier with inverted commas, did I state that one point out of eighteen is progress.  Did anybody?

Caldwell inherited a team that had just lost five out their last six games. Of the five losses we deserved to lose every one of them and they looked pretty hopeless to me. It is taking longer than anybody had hoped for him to turn things round but performances in the last few weeks have given me encouragement and I don't think it will be long before we start to climb the table. 

Sorry Jag, I know I copied your post, but I really wasn't meaning to get at you. My only point is that there seems to be an angle, not necessarily from you, that Caldwell inherited such a mess that what is happening now is inevitable. I don't believe that; I think we are now in a bigger mess than before he started.

This doesn't mean he can't sort it it out. I really hope he can. It's early days.

i stand by everything I said in the last couple of posts, but I shouldn't have done it by quoting you.

 

[allyo]

Ps, weird stuff happening with the post above. To clarify... I wrote it. (Pretty obvious really, given its content)

[Fawlty Towers]

Report from the Trust from the meeting plus their update after the Club Board Meeting:

https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/ptfc-trust-update-december-2018/

[KemoAvdiu]

I was at the meet the manager night and don’t remember anything about the requested funds being released in full etc. Apologies if I missed that, but if I didn’t it begs a number of questions:

- Why is that information being made public by the fans trust rather than the club itself?

- Why is that information being made public AT ALL (whether through this statement or, if I missed it on the night, at the meet the manager event)? All it does is alert every agent and club in Scotland and across the UK to the fact we have money to spend. 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by KemoAvdiu

[Auld Jag]

7 minutes ago, KemoAvdiu said:

I was at the meet the manager night and don’t remember anything about the requested funds being released in full etc. Apologies if I missed that, but if I didn’t it begs a number of questions:

- Why is that information being made public by the fans trust rather than the club itself?

- Why is that information being made public AT ALL (whether through this statement or, if I missed it on the night, at the meet the manager event)? All it does is alert every agent and club in Scotland and across the UK to the fact we have money to spend. 

 

Agree with you. Is it maybe the board letting the fans know they are backing Caldwell ?

[Fawlty Towers]

Remember at the meeting the Trust through Pauline explained that they now meet the Club Board after they (the club) have their meetings as the club want to be open with fans - surely a good thing?

The club in the chairman's first monthly update stated that there would be funds available to the manager so it has been put out there by the club.

Do you honestly think that agents/clubs can't figure out for themselves that we would be looking to make additions in the transfer window? Have we given out details of how much we are spending or what their player's will be on per week? Falkirk, St Mirren & Dundee have all stated they will be supporting their managers so I don't think we are doing anything wildly different from other clubs.

You are entitled to your opinions on the Trust but all I can say is I have actually interacted with them over some issues and these have all been resolved quickly and effectively.

[1 John Lambie]

1 hour ago, KemoAvdiu said:

I was at the meet the manager night and don’t remember anything about the requested funds being released in full etc. Apologies if I missed that, but if I didn’t it begs a number of questions:

- Why is that information being made public by the fans trust rather than the club itself?

- Why is that information being made public AT ALL (whether through this statement or, if I missed it on the night, at the meet the manager event)? All it does is alert every agent and club in Scotland and across the UK to the fact we have money to spend. 

 

As covered by FT, the update & the minutes from the meeting are 2 separate things altogether.

Also as covered by FT, where possible, the PTFC Trust Trustees will meet with the PTFC Board after Board meetings & the details discussed at this point are then shared with supporters shortly after.

[KemoAvdiu]

30 minutes ago, 1 John Lambie said:

As covered by FT, the update & the minutes from the meeting are 2 separate things altogether.

Also as covered by FT, where possible, the PTFC Trust Trustees will meet with the PTFC Board after Board meetings & the details discussed at this point are then shared with supporters shortly after.

Thanks for the clarity, I should have read it more thoroughly. My two questions still stand though.

Edited December 18, 2018 by KemoAvdiu

[Guest]

Just now, 1 John Lambie said:

As covered by FT, the update & the minutes from the meeting are 2 separate things altogether.

Also as covered by FT, where possible, the PTFC Trust Trustees will meet with the PTFC Board after Board meetings & the details discussed at this point are then shared with supporters shortly after.

This has to be positive. More engagement with fans has to be a step in the right direction. Still doesn't mean the board will listen to what the fans say back to them tho.

It's unthinkable that the board would be considering not giving their appointed manager funds in january. Even tho i'm not convinced and many of us aren't convinced caldwell is the man to take us forward, it's clear the board will back their man. Even if it results in relegation again or narrow escape.

Financially we will be secure but at what cost. I have zero faith in this board. None so blind as those who will not see (greatest of respect to those of our number who have sight issues). 

It's going to be a hard slog 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Guest
Shooking spooling........

[jlsarmy]

On 12/18/2018 at 10:26 PM, Thistleberight said:

This has to be positive. More engagement with fans has to be a step in the right direction. Still doesn't mean the board will listen to what the fans say back to them tho.

It's unthinkable that the board would be considering not giving their appointed manager funds in january. Even tho i'm not convinced and many of us aren't convinced caldwell is the man to take us forward, it's clear the board will back their man. Even if it results in relegation again or narrow escape.

Financially we will be secure but at what cost. I have zero faith in this board. None so blind as those who will not see (greatest of respect to those of our number who have sight issues). 

It's going to be a hard slog 

As I said in a previous thread , we don’t know if we’ve got a weak Board of Directors or not , but I’m sure we’ll soon find out in the next few weeks .

I’m sure they will be well aware of the financial implications of another relegation and that can’t be allowed to happen . I’m also sure  Jaqui Lowe will be aware of the lack of confidence a lot of supporters have in Gary Caldwell and also the style of play that he is adopting which isn’t producing results.

I’m also concerned that Caldwell isn’t involved more with the Academy, either being about the Academy and showing an interest or even attending some games . At a Club of our level , in my opinion everything should be joined up Academy-   U 18s - reserve team - first team , that would show a natural progression and young players would see a pathway to hopefully the first team

 

I personally think they made the wrong choice and I’m sure the Board will have to make a call on it in the next few weeks if results don’t improve.

 

[AndyMac]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

As I said in a previous thread , we don’t know if we’ve got a weak Board of Directors or not , but I’m sure we’ll soon find out in the next few weeks .

I’m sure they will be well aware of the financial implications of another relegation and that can’t be allowed to happen . I’m also sure  Jaqui Lowe will be aware of the lack of confidence a lot of supporters have in Gary Caldwell and also the style of play that he is adopting which isn’t producing results.

I’m also concerned that Caldwell isn’t involved more with the Academy, either being about the Academy and showing an interest or even attending some games . At a Club of our level , in my opinion everything should be joined up Academy-   U 18s - reserve team - first team , that would show a natural progression and young players would see a pathway to hopefully the first team

 

I personally think they made the wrong choice and I’m sure the Board will have to make a call on it in the next few weeks if results don’t improve.

 

One of the bothersome things about this board is the manner of Archie's departure. Poster after poster on this forum, myself included, lined up to state that the board made the tough but correct call in the termination of Archie's contract.

Let's be frank; we were in little danger of being relegated with Archie at the helm, we had mid table mediocracy written all over us.  However, the game was up, the bar had been set at promotion, a level that Archie was never realistically going to meet in one season.

The board then panicked, buckled and pandered to the supporter demands. They then somewhat unbelievably fired Archie without a single candidate being lined up as a replacement!

This board are weak and incompetent in equal measures.

Edited December 23, 2018 by AndyMac

[Pinhead]

20 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

One of the bothersome things about this board is the manner of Archie's departure. Poster after poster on this forum, myself included, lined up to state that the board made the tough but correct call in the termination of Archie's contract.

Let's be frank; we were in little danger of being relegated with Archie at the helm, we had mid table mediocracy written all over us.  However, the game was up, the bar had been set at promotion, a level that Archie was never realistically going to meet in one season.

The board then panicked, buckled and pandered to the supporter demands. They then somewhat unbelievably fired Archie without a single candidate being lined up as a replacement!

This board are weak and incompetent in equal measures.

sorry but thats nonsense

[jlsarmy]

4 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

One of the bothersome things about this board is the manner of Archie's departure. Poster after poster on this forum, myself included, lined up to state that the board made the tough but correct call in the termination of Archie's contract.

Let's be frank; we were in little danger of being relegated with Archie at the helm, we had mid table mediocracy written all over us.  However, the game was up up, the bar had been set at promotion, a level that Archie was never realistically going to meet in one season.

The board then panicked, buckled and pandered to the supporter demands. They somewhat unbelievably fired Archie without a single candidate being lined up as a replacement!

This board are weak and incompetent in equal measures.

Not sure I agree with that , I’m pretty sure if David Beattie had been at the helm with Ian Maxwell as chief executive they would possibly have held on for a little bit longer , they were far more culpable than Jaqui Lowe in terms of residing over the decline over the last 18 months and not doing anything about it which resulted in our relegation. Jaquie Lowe and the Board of Directors made the call to try something different, that is not weak Board management but shows a realisation that it wasn’t working with Alan Archibald.

I’ve got a feeling that Jaquie Lowe isn’t as weak as some of us perceive her to be , she’s been In business for a long time ,the one grey area is whether there was a probationary clause in Caldwell ‘s contract , if there wasn’t there is obviously a big financial concern to paying him off as we are still paying up Archie’s contract.

Clubs call it wrong in terms of recruitment of managers and believe me we should know Derek Johnstone, Murdo McLeod , Dick Campbell to name but a few.

A strong board will recognise it’s not working and try to sort it.

Fingers Crossed 

 

 

 

[AndyMac]

3 minutes ago, Pinhead said:

sorry but thats nonsense

We were mid table when Archie got sacked. We are now second bottom.

[AndyMac]

2 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Not sure I agree with that , I’m pretty sure if David Beattie had been at the helm with Ian Maxwell as chief executive they would possibly have held on for a little bit longer , they were far more culpable than Jaqui Lowe in terms of residing over the decline over the last 18 months and not doing anything about it which resulted in our relegation. Jaquie Lowe and the Board of Directors made the call to try something different, that is not weak Board management but shows a realisation that it wasn’t working with Alan Archibald.

I’ve got a feeling that Jaquie Lowe isn’t as weak as some of us perceive her to be , she’s been In business for a long time ,the one grey area is whether there was a probationary clause in Caldwell ‘s contract , if there wasn’t there is obviously a big financial concern to paying him off as we are still paying up Archie’s contract.

Clubs call it wrong in terms of recruitment of managers and believe me we should know Derek Johnstone, Murdo McLeod , Dick Campbell to name but a few.

A strong board will recognise it’s not working and try to sort it.

Fingers Crossed 

 

 

 

I agree that Archie's time was up. Should have been away at the end of last season and you're right regarding the new board, as that decision resides with David Beattie's and Ian Maxwell's reign.

Nevertheless, I believe that the present board are weak. They bumped Archie claiming that they were "listening to the fans", some would say the board were "listening", others would say that they folded under moderate pressure.

We were in no real danger of relegation, nevertheless we sacked our long term manager mid season, with not one single replacement lined up.

I hope for the best, but to be honest, I have little faith.

 

 

[jlsarmy]

2 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

I agree that Archie's time was up. Should have been away at the end of last season and you're right regarding the new board, as that decision resides with David Beattie's and Ian Maxwell's reign.

Nevertheless, I believe that the present board are weak. They bumped Archie claiming that they were "listening to the fans", some would say the board were "listening", others would say that they folded under moderate pressure.

We were in no real danger of relegation, nevertheless we sacked our long term manager mid season, with not one single replacement lined up.

I hope for the best, but to be honest, I have little faith.

 

 

Are you really saying that the Board were wrong to sack Alan Archibald , he was bringing nothing to the table at that moment and the recruitment which we’re left with is there for all to see .

[AndyMac]

18 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Are you really saying that the Board were wrong to sack Alan Archibald , he was bringing nothing to the table at that moment and the recruitment which we’re left with is there for all to see .

Archie's time was well up. Nevertheless, it was early season and we were not deep in the mire. The board had the luxury to research and sound out suitable replacements before they sacked Archie.

The board made a knee jerk reaction to sack Archie. It was not planned. They were bounced into it. They should of had a suitable manager lined up to replace him.

That is why I think they are weak and incompetent.

Edited December 23, 2018 by AndyMac

[allyo]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

Are you really saying that the Board were wrong to sack Alan Archibald , he was bringing nothing to the table at that moment and the recruitment which we’re left with is there for all to see .

How can you reply to a message that starts... "I agree that Archie's time was up.", with "Are you really saying that the Board were wrong to sack Alan Archibald "?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

As I said in a previous thread , we don’t know if we’ve got a weak Board of Directors or not , but I’m sure we’ll soon find out in the next few weeks .

I’m sure they will be well aware of the financial implications of another relegation and that can’t be allowed to happen . I’m also sure  Jaqui Lowe will be aware of the lack of confidence a lot of supporters have in Gary Caldwell and also the style of play that he is adopting which isn’t producing results.

I’m also concerned that Caldwell isn’t involved more with the Academy, either being about the Academy and showing an interest or even attending some games . At a Club of our level , in my opinion everything should be joined up Academy-   U 18s - reserve team - first team , that would show a natural progression and young players would see a pathway to hopefully the first team

 

I personally think they made the wrong choice and I’m sure the Board will have to make a call on it in the next few weeks if results don’t improve.

 

I hope you're right jls. Interesting and disappointed in equal measure to hear of the mamagers apparent lack if attendance at that level. I would have expected that a manager would want to be all over all aspects of the playing side of the club. Every day i become more concerned with what's going on at our club.

 

He needs to take control. I'm again left wondering about the level of commitment and is his not living near the club impacting on his day to day attendance.

We are in the sh1te and he needs to be here 24/7. That's what is expected of me in my work place when things are hitting the fan. 20/24/36 hour shifts are not unusual. I'm not expecting that of him and if i'm wrong i'll apologise but there's way too many anecdotes about his commitment time wise. I dispair and hope you are right about the board acting. The past 2 years suggests otherwise though. Again i hope we pump the ton on saturday and he turns us around but i fear the worst

[jlsarmy]

6 minutes ago, allyo said:

How can you reply to a message that starts... "I agree that Archie's time was up.", with "Are you really saying that the Board were wrong to sack Alan Archibald "?

The rest of Andy Macs reply was full of contradictions after that , stating that the Board folded under moderate pressure , indicated Archie was sacked mid season, in no danger of relegation etc  , and it wasn’t mid season it was after the first 6 games , it wasn’t a knee jerk reaction at all it was a culmination of the 18 months prior 

[AndyMac]

3 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

The rest of Andy Macs reply was full of contradictions after that , stating that the Board folded under moderate pressure , indicated Archie was sacked mid season, in no danger of relegation etc  , and it wasn’t mid season it was after the first 6 games , it wasn’t a knee jerk reaction at all it was a culmination of the 18 months prior 

Sorry for any confusion JLS;

My own view of Archie is that he and Shaggy had given everything they had to give. I think they were totally burnt out having won the Championship and keeping us up in the top flight for four seasons, which in itself is no mean feat. I believe that it would of been better for the club to have paid off their contracts in full at the end of last season, as a thank you for their service and achievements.

However, it has to be said that Archie never had a moment in charge when he wasn't under severe pressure, he was never given the luxury of time to rebuild or develop with the resources of being a big fish in a small pond. Gary Caldwell's one success was with Wigan, when they were the biggest and richest fish in the pond, bankrolled with the largesse of Dave Wheelan's millions to gain promotion.

When the board sacked Archie we were mid table. We were not relegation fodder. IMO, in these circumstances, the board had a duty to have suitable replacements in mind/lined up before giving Archie the bullet.

The board hired Gary Caldwell on the strength of an interview. Hire in haste, repent at leisure.

Yes, Archie's firing was a culmination of 18 months of failure, it was no surprise. Nevertheless, I do believe that the board were not planning to fire Archie and when it finally came to it, the sacking was a knee jerk reaction. You may be right JLS and I might be wrong. But those are my thoughts on the matter

 

 

 

[Auld Jag]

I said at the time and I will say it again. Sacking Archibald was the easier bit as his record was so bad over the previous 18 months. The difficult bit was getting in the right manager to take the team forward. So far our results suggest they have not done that. If he has a 2 year contract with no clauses at all about league position, results or a probation period our board has failed our club and dropped it in the brown stuff.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

14 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Not sure I agree with that , I’m pretty sure if David Beattie had been at the helm with Ian Maxwell as chief executive they would possibly have held on for a little bit longer , they were far more culpable than Jaqui Lowe in terms of residing over the decline over the last 18 months and not doing anything about it which resulted in our relegation. Jaquie Lowe and the Board of Directors made the call to try something different, that is not weak Board management but shows a realisation that it wasn’t working with Alan Archibald.

Yes, I think in criticising (valid) the present Chair & Chief Exec there could be a tendency to stick Bettie & Maxwell up in a pedestal as role models. They both left at a convenient time. Just cos they didn't appoint Caldwell doesn't let them off the hook. What happened to the contingency plans for Archie leaving? Were they scrapped when he didn't move down South or did they ever really exist?