Hearts Viaplay Cup - Sunday 20 August

[Woodstock Jag]

6 minutes ago, javeajag said:

To be honest the pin head here is quite small for dancing…..so there were attempts to get investment but the details couldn’t be agreed and it fell through  ….I think that’s what I said.

There is a very important difference between saying that attempts to get an investment group to agree terms was not successful and giving the impression that terms were agreed within an investment group but then rejected by either the PTFC Trust or the Club Board.

It’s not “head of a pin” stuff. Those are fundamentally different situations.

6 minutes ago, javeajag said:

on disclosure I think here’s the issue …..who asked for a running commentary?who asked for all the details to be splashed over the internet? No one but aunt sally is alive and well. That approach is often used to tell people nothing in these situations which in a fan owned club can lead to other problems.

The fans haven’t been told nothing. What we are seeing on this thread is someone giving a misleading and incomplete account of what happened. There were many reasons the TJF efforts to pull together an investment group did not bear fruit. Animosity towards Ian McCall, Jim’s personal good friend, was not one of them.

6 minutes ago, javeajag said:

maybe it could be framed this way ….

who in a fan owned club should decide if potential investment is acceptable or not ? And who should know the broad outlines of what’s being proposed? And how should this shared with nominal fan owners?

That depends entirely on what stage of the investment process you’re at.

At the facilitator stage, that was an assessment that had to be made by those in the negotiating room.

At decision-making stage (which, to emphasise, was never reached) that would be a separate matter for the majority shareholder, and then the Club Board.

If we never get to the decision stage, it’s not clear to me that there is anything to tell the fan owners.

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Tom Hosie said:

I wondered why a thread about the Hearts game was still going. I now know. 

JJ has always enjoyed a good conspiracy theory. The Ibrox Rush, boy he's like a dog with a bone with that. 

FWIW I think annoucing the McCall sacking the evening of the Rangers game was an error. It could have kept a day, or even two, and made no significant difference. 

That there was some personal agenda against McCall though, a guy I've a lot of time for incidentally, is IMO, well wide of the mark. 

Football is ruthless. As much as I have a lot if time for McCall personally if it had been my responsibility to make the call (and thankfully these things never will be) I'd have made a change after the 3-0 defeat at Raith Rovers. 

Perhaps the turmoil at the Club at the time actually kept McCall in post. I wonder what would d have happened had Sneddon not headed an injury time winner at Cove? 

Anyway, I suspect the notion that there was any personal agenda, in resoinse to outside influences against McCall belongs firmly alongside the notion that 9/11 was an inside job. 

My guess, and we are all guessing, is the new board came in and saw that there was a massive financial crisis lying waiting to swallow the club up. 

One (only?) way to address/resolve that impending crisis was to win promotion. 

We were outside the play-offs, had just lost at home to Cove and Hamilton and the Board took the call that McCall could not win the club promotion. 

It's inconceivable to me that that decision wasn't made well in advance of Ibrox. The decent showing in defeat was immaterial. 

It was both a financial and football decision. To address the incoming financial crisis we had to win promotion. McCall wasn't going to achieve that therefore a change was required. 

I thought at the time the McCall out Doolan in, roll of the dice was a massive gamble. The dice came agonisingly close to rolling our way. 

From the outside I think the current Board are doing a fair job. Certainly those I know have my trust. Time, league positions and scrutiny of the accounts will determine if they are. 

Those of us that pretty much just see 90 minutes of football don't know what internal 'non essential', for want of a better phrase have phrase, cuts have been made in terms of internal restructuring. 

They certainly appear to have provided the manager with a more competitive budget than I suspected he might have ve able to spend. He'll live and die in football terms on how he spends it. 

That suggests that the Board have been doing anything but ignoring the finances of the football club and have addressed some not insignificant issues .

I think this season will be challenging in many ways, both on and off the pitch, but we look to be headed in the right direction, boosted by a good three points yesterday that typically I missed. 

You do not know in any shape or form wither there was a personal agenda or not - no matter how well written the response is 

What we do know is that they couldn't wait to sack him - no one has a logical explanation and it leaves a question mark 

What we do know is that there was discussions on significant investment and McCall returning was part of at least one of the packages 

So it all may be a “ conspiracy theory” 

but they are reasonable questions to ask - if it was personal then we have a serious problem 

[Woodstock Jag]

14 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

All sensible - but so we are clear all those they were speaking to had previously in various forms put money into the Club and were connected to the Club so it wasn’t a group of strangers 

Correct. No one suggested otherwise.

14 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We also know that one of the offers involved McCall coming back as Director of Football ( it’s not a Commercial secret as it’s “ out there” 

I’m not going to comment on that because the content of those discussions were confidential. That you are putting that claim in the public domain is on you Jim!

14 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Meantime seperate from the Investment discussions various Fans are being approached to put in £50- £70k into the Club - no strings attached - meantime they are in detailed discussions to bring onto the Board a high profile Celtic Fan - but no cash

Again, I’m not going to comment on conversations the Club may or may not have had with third parties.

What I can say, because Sandy mentioned it in TJF‘s AGM chair remarks, is that the Club was proactively pursuing investment opportunities with other parties and continued to do so once the TJF-coordinated efforts failed to yield fruit.

Are you suggesting the Club shouldn’t have been seeking investment from a variety of different potential sources in case, as transpired, the lead efforts fell through?

14 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And as for “ conspiracy theories “ what we are being asked to believe is that in the January when it was very clear we were going bust is that rather than make drastic cuts - Non Football Staff  - Woman’s Team funding etc etc - instead we decided not to strengthen the squad - then decided the solution to our finances was promotion and for that we needed someone who had only ever ran Kids Soccer Camps in a Coaching Capacity

As the Club Board intimated in its various statements, the off-pitch overspend was brought about by precommited income and spending issues. Therefore it wasn’t a problem that could simply be solved by cutting core services without which the Club doesn’t function.

Dismissing staff costs money. It doesn’t address a cashflow issue overnight. The priority pursued was therefore new inward investment. Very sensibly.

Still, I find it very interesting that your own solution would have been, in effect, to fold the Women’s team mid-way through their best ever season, when that wouldn’t even have touched the sides of the size of the deficit.

It’s also plainly false that the Club Board decided not to strengthen the squad. The position was simply that any changes had to be cost neutral. Which, thanks to additional contributions from a fan who matched TJF’s January donation to the Club, led to the signing of an extra experienced first team player, who provided important cover in several positions during periods of injury to first team starters. It is nothing but revisionism on your part to suggest that Ian McCall was not backed in terms of his budget last year.

The decision to bring in Doolan was informed, in part, by the fact that he was already employed by the Club and therefore asking him to take on first team duties would be cost neutral.

Please, Jim, for the sake of everyone, take your rose tinted spectacles off here and accept that you’re not an impartial commentator here. The picture you are presenting is misleading.

[Woodstock Jag]

2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

You do not know in any shape or form wither there was a personal agenda or not - no matter how well written the response is 

What we do know is that they couldn't wait to sack him - no one has a logical explanation and it leaves a question mark 

If they couldn’t wait to sack him he wouldn’t have been manager in January Jim.

2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

What we do know is that there was discussions on significant investment and McCall returning was part of at least one of the packages 

So it all may be a “ conspiracy theory” 

but they are reasonable questions to ask - if it was personal then we have a serious problem 

You’re a wild conspiracy theorist.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

I do have a lot of respect for the anonymous fans who put in big amounts of cash in these times and others. 

[Tom Hosie]

34 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

You do not know in any shape or form wither there was a personal agenda or not - no matter how well written the response is 

What we do know is that they couldn't wait to sack him - no one has a logical explanation and it leaves a question mark 

What we do know is that there was discussions on significant investment and McCall returning was part of at least one of the packages 

So it all may be a “ conspiracy theory” 

but they are reasonable questions to ask - if it was personal then we have a serious problem 

And you have no idea if there was a personal agenda no matter how often, or badly written, you suggest there is. 

You are absolutely a conspiracy theorist. Always have been. You revel in crisis and are rarely heard of otherwise. 

And btw seeing as you are clearly fishing, I'll bite. If PTWFC were binned as being "non essential" as suggested the impact on the Club's budget would be neglible to the point of non existent. And that I say with some knowledge. 

[jaf]

Hi all

I thought I should contribute here from a position of certain knowledge. 
 

1. There were investment discussions which TJF were part of and central to. Two of us including myself were subject to NDAs in respect of this.  IF these discussions had progressed to a successful conclusion, there would have been full transparent disclosure / consultation with members given TJFs involvement in the process and the consortium of investors. 
 

2. Those particular investment discussions did not proceed to an investment.  For various reasons but it is entirely wrong to say it was rejected by the club nor anything to do with Ian McCall. Completely wrong. 
 

3. The club needs investment.  That remains the case as we have mentioned previously. The process was useful as it showed that fan ownership and private capital / investment could Co-exist with the right investor.  

4.  I am very happy to privately discuss further @javeajag if there is any specific questions that remain unanswered.  
 

Sandy Fyfe 

 

[jagfox]

Duncan Smillie did not like McCall.

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

If they couldn’t wait to sack him he wouldn’t have been manager in January Jim.

You’re a wild conspiracy theorist.

Ok Im a Conspiracy theorist 

So indulge me and shut me up with rationale responses ( not comments ) but actual replies 

1.Why did the Board Rush back from Ibrox to sack McCall ( I know you disagreed with the timing etc etc ) my question is why they choose to do so 

2.In the middle of a Major Financial Crisis - why was the Board trying to recruit a high profile Celtic Fan onto the Board - it wasn't an Investor - just another Director - Im not asking you to comment of the who etc - but Im asking you for an explanation as to why 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, jagfox said:

Duncan Smillie did not like McCall.

Never - wonder why that was ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, Tom Hosie said:

And you have no idea if there was a personal agenda no matter how often, or badly written, you suggest there is. 

You are absolutely a conspiracy theorist. Always have been. You revel in crisis and are rarely heard of otherwise. 

And btw seeing as you are clearly fishing, I'll bite. If PTWFC were binned as being "non essential" as suggested the impact on the Club's budget would be neglible to the point of non existent. And that I say with some knowledge. 

And you have no idea if there was not one ? However actions speak louder than words and until there is a rationale explanation as to why they rushed back to sack him - I will hold my own Council 

Your also being selective - I said cut All aspects of the Club that were not related to the First Team - not just the Woman's Team - in a Financial Crisis you cut all costs 

[Tom Hosie]

6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And you have no idea if there was not one ? However actions speak louder than words and until there is a rationale explanation as to why they rushed back to sack him - I will hold my own Council 

Your also being selective - I said cut All aspects of the Club that were not related to the First Team - not just the Woman's Team - in a Financial Crisis you cut all costs 

I never said I did. 

Rational explaination. You are actually looking for something make sophisticated than club change well backed manager when failing in a promotion challenge with the financial implications of not going up? 

You mentioned PTWFC several times. I replied on a subject that I happen to know something about. 

You like rationale (sic) explanations. Perhaps you can explain then the value in axing something when the financial impact of doing so is negligible to the point of non existent? 

Finally, making the same point time and time again doesn't make more valid. 

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok Im a Conspiracy theorist 

So indulge me and shut me up with rationale responses ( not comments ) but actual replies 

1.Why did the Board Rush back from Ibrox to sack McCall ( I know you disagreed with the timing etc etc ) my question is why they choose to do so 

Ask them Jim.

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

2.In the middle of a Major Financial Crisis - why was the Board trying to recruit a high profile Celtic Fan onto the Board - it wasn't an Investor - just another Director - Im not asking you to comment of the who etc - but Im asking you for an explanation as to why 

I literally don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Jordanhill Jag]

10 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Ask them Jim.

I literally don’t know what you’re talking about.

Ok so you have stated Im a conspiracy theorist 

Ive asked two straightforward questions on actions that shall we say are odd for a Board looking down the barrel of Bankruptcy

TJF have regular contact with the Club - they have two Directors

But they never thought to ask for an explanation ? Never Questioned the Why ? 

Im just a Fan - Im not connected to the Board

I have no idea to the answers - so I will draw my own conclusions ( conspiracy theory or not ) 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Tom Hosie said:

I never said I did. 

Rational explaination. You are actually looking for something make sophisticated than club change well backed manager when failing in a promotion challenge with the financial implications of not going up? 

You mentioned PTWFC several times. I replied on a subject that I happen to know something about. 

You like rationale (sic) explanations. Perhaps you can explain then the value in axing something when the financial impact of doing so is negligible to the point of non existent? 

Finally, making the same point time and time again doesn't make more valid. 

Ok - so we are agreed neither of us have any idea if there was anything beyond Football 

However what is being linked that failure to get promoted meant we were in Financial Trouble - by extension - failure to be top of the league is McCalls fault and by extension the financial future is in jeopardy so he has to be sacked ? 
 

But Im the conspiracy theorist - Aye very good 

[Barney Rubble]

For heaven's sake Jim, give it a rest.

Regurgitating the same stuff about the timing of McCall's sacking doesn't change a thing because none of us know what happened or have answers as to the rationale.

Please let it go, you aren't convincing anyone on here, and you never will when you are repeating the same tired rhetoric.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Barney Rubble said:

For heaven's sake Jim, give it a rest.

Regurgitating the same stuff about the timing of McCall's sacking doesn't change a thing because none of us know what happened or have answers as to the rationale.

Please let it go, you aren't convincing anyone on here, and you never will when you are repeating the same tired rhetoric.

Fair enough 

but lets just say the optics of how it was done -and those involved -should not be swept under the carpet 

 

[javeajag]

29 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

For heaven's sake Jim, give it a rest.

Regurgitating the same stuff about the timing of McCall's sacking doesn't change a thing because none of us know what happened or have answers as to the rationale.

Please let it go, you aren't convincing anyone on here, and you never will when you are repeating the same tired rhetoric.

I’ll make one comment …. I watched the new owner of Bournemouth explain on tv yesterday before their game explain why they sacked Gary O’Neill …. You might expect a fan owned club to at least explain such decisions to their fellow owners 

[Woodstock Jag]

34 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I’ll make one comment …. I watched the new owner of Bournemouth explain on tv yesterday before their game explain why they sacked Gary O’Neill …. You might expect a fan owned club to at least explain such decisions to their fellow owners 

The Club Board issued a statement explaining their decision the following day. It’s on the website. Right here: https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/club-update-13th-february-2023/

[javeajag]

6 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

The Club Board issued a statement explaining their decision the following day. It’s on the website. Right here: https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/club-update-13th-february-2023/

If you read that as I did at the time it explained very little actually ( probably what wasn’t said was more important )  and in hindsight they failed in their own set objective   ….we replaced an experienced manager with an inexperienced manager and then failed to get promoted and of course no one is accountable for that failure.

[jlsarmy]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

If you read that as I did at the time it explained very little actually ( probably what wasn’t said was more important )  and in hindsight they failed in their own set objective   ….we replaced an experienced manager with an inexperienced manager and then failed to get promoted and of course no one is accountable for that failure.

In the overall context from the start of last season it was failure as we  overspent and didn’t get promotion .

Think in the grand scheme of things the inexperienced manager turned around the Club which was on a downward spiral 

The people who made that decision should be congratulated for their foresight or who knows where we would have ended up .

[javeajag]

5 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

In the overall context from the start of last season it was failure as we  overspent and didn’t get promotion .

Think in the grand scheme of things the inexperienced manager turned around the Club which was on a downward spiral 

The people who made that decision should be congratulated for their foresight or who knows where we would have ended up .

So who was accountable for overspending and not getting promotion ?

We were not on a downward spiral unless you consider being one point off fourth spot before the rangers game a potentially turnaround performance ( we just made fourth spot due to other results going our way at the end of the season - hardly over achieving) so we failed in our stated objective to get promoted.

where we ended up was where we started ffs hardly brilliant 

[jlsarmy]

7 minutes ago, javeajag said:

So who was accountable for overspending and not getting promotion ?

We were not on a downward spiral unless you consider being one point off fourth spot before the rangers game a potentially turnaround performance ( we just made fourth spot due to other results going our way at the end of the season - hardly over achieving) so we failed in our stated objective to get promoted.

where we ended up was where we started ffs hardly brilliant 

We had just lost 6 games in a row  including Cove and Hamilton at home 

Is that not a downward spiral ?

If the change hadn’t been made IMO it would have been a relegation battle .

The change in management turned that around absolutely no doubt 

[javeajag]

3 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

We had just lost 6 games in a row  including Cove and Hamilton at home 

Is that not a downward spiral ?

If the change hadn’t been made IMO it would have been a relegation battle .

The change in management turned that around absolutely no doubt 

It may have been …..but your predictive ability is unproven unless you know the lottery numbers this week?

to be clear we changed manager apparently to get promotion …..we failed in that objective …..who carried the can ? 

[jlsarmy]

6 minutes ago, javeajag said:

It may have been …..but your predictive ability is unproven unless you know the lottery numbers this week?

to be clear we changed manager apparently to get promotion …..we failed in that objective …..who carried the can ? 

It’s football Javejag , no BOD carries the can .

Today Lee Johnson at Hibs was sacked after 3 games , you won’t see any mass resignations of directors because they chose the wrong manager

Re McCall , I think the aspirations when he was sacked had changed, we had lost a lot of games and you were right we were a point of 4th but we had started well and were top of the League at one point.

The timing was wrong but it was the correct decision.