Third Lanark Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Norgethistle said: That’s maybe how business worked in the Victorian age, but not in the 21st century.. Every person at every level makes mistakes except 2 categories, liars and folk who do nothing. If a culture is bred where a mistake gets you booted, then mistakes are hidden, decisions never taken and you can’t keep staff or attract staff. Plus company basically stops as no one will make that call due to it potentially being their last. The encouragement to learn from mistakes and be open about them is written into the guiding policies for most businesses within their 9001/9100 systems, HR and ethical protocols. In all the businesses I deal with I have never seen a culture of make a mistake and be fired, continually make them yes, break cardinal rules yes, but not have a culture where folk are terrified to make a decision in case it’s wrong then they are gone. And as an ex Shop Steward the movement would never had allowed that to exist either. Not that he should be sacked currently but To be fair the mistakes made in the livi cup game have ended up costing the club several hundred thousands of pounds. That’s a very expensive mistake alone. That several hundred thousand pound’s could have been used for all manner of things to help the club 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 (edited) Given that the defensive set up is at the heart of our problems, would it not be possible for Doolan to get some advice and help from an experienced retired manager/player. I agree with those arguing that it is too soon to judge him, but the man is inexperienced and needs help. Edited February 28 by eljaggo ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: The Morton fans were wanting Imrie sacked before Xmas And look how, given time, he is improving things. Im for giving Dools time to get this right. Playoff position is the aim this year, I’d still give him another season in charge if we fall short. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Norgethistle said: That’s maybe how business worked in the Victorian age, but not in the 21st century.. Every person at every level makes mistakes except 2 categories, liars and folk who do nothing. If a culture is bred where a mistake gets you booted, then mistakes are hidden, decisions never taken and you can’t keep staff or attract staff. Plus company basically stops as no one will make that call due to it potentially being their last. The encouragement to learn from mistakes and be open about them is written into the guiding policies for most businesses within their 9001/9100 systems, HR and ethical protocols. In all the businesses I deal with I have never seen a culture of make a mistake and be fired, continually make them yes, break cardinal rules yes, but not have a culture where folk are terrified to make a decision in case it’s wrong then they are gone. And as an ex Shop Steward the movement would never had allowed that to exist either. Nope - that's perfectly normal in todays Corporate World - and even more so in Companies Owned by Venture Capitalists ( which is a fair share of Companies ) These are not "mistakes" these are decisions -and management are there to make decisions - you make the wrong ones - it cost someone there job due to these "decisions" normally the Manager - it costs the Company ( Club) Money in lost Revenue So as the Directors are neither Employees NOR Shareholders - then they can be replaced as there decisions are not Meeting the expectations - there are No Unique SkillSets on our Board that we cannot get in a Heartbeat from our Fanbase Otherwise rather than have a Club run along Commercial Lines - you have a Bowling Club Committee (and in our case funded by selling off Shares in the Club ) Now people will have views on how we are run off the Park However our Core Objective is Success on it Third in the League is the stated Objective - Make the Playoffs - acceptable - 6 Points off the Playoffs - Manager & Directors who appointed him get replaced - this is Football not a Corporate Multi National we don't have ISO 9001 nor Trade Unions - TJF played hardball in removing the Chairman - they played hardball in looking to remove the previous Board - they don't get to operate an Old Pals Act with people they happen to like - otherwise we are a Bowling Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Lenziejag said: Analysing our defensive performances recently I think the common denominator unfortunately has been Luke McBeth. He wasn’t playing in the Livingston game but the error Doolan made there was the subs made right after the 2nd goal. Prior to that we had played 5 games in 2024 and only conceded 4 goals. It seems to me that the two changes to make for Saturday are the keeper and McBeth. The error was giving Bannigan a 2 Year Contract - that tells you everything you need to know We assemble a Squad Round the Midfield Weaknesses ( and it was glaring in the Ross County Game ) that's the core issue Stop blaming McBeth the issues were there long before he was signed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 24 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The error was giving Bannigan a 2 Year Contract - that tells you everything you need to know We assemble a Squad Round the Midfield Weaknesses ( and it was glaring in the Ross County Game ) that's the core issue Stop blaming McBeth the issues were there long before he was signed I don’t think I should. From November until the Livingston game we had lost more than 1 goal in a game only 3 times out of 13 games. Since McBeths introduction it’s 3 times in 3 games. You can’t ignore the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 16 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: I don’t think I should. From November until the Livingston game we had lost more than 1 goal in a game only 3 times out of 13 games. Since McBeths introduction it’s 3 times in 3 games. You can’t ignore the facts. The reason we signed Mcbeth is because we had no Midfield worth talking about so we drop Mcbeth - its his fault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: I don’t think I should. From November until the Livingston game we had lost more than 1 goal in a game only 3 times out of 13 games. Since McBeths introduction it’s 3 times in 3 games. You can’t ignore the facts. Ah good old Socratic logic ……that’s not a casual relationship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarciaBlaine Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 14 minutes ago, javeajag said: Ah good old Socratic logic ……that’s not a casual relationship Right, who had "Socratic logic" on their Thistle Patter bingo cards? 😁 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenski Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, Third Lanark said: A weakness of Doolan was last year’s transfer window. Starting early is useful if you know what you are doing. If we go about resigning Jamie Sneddon, Muirhead (though rumours he has already triggered an extension)and sign more bombscare supposedly well scouted players like Williams on undeserved 2 year deals or injury prone players, or Bannigan an undeserved contract extension then he will have learned absolutely nothing Though it will have been an absolutely appalling run of form if we miss out on playoffs which will also bring questions He got the job mid-season, it was his first managerial role, the club was in a mess, his dad died, he had limited backroom staff, he was wholly occupied on managing the team into and through an extended set of play-offs games, he lost the services of arguably the club's four best players. There was uncertainty over budget/funds available. Then he had a shorter close season once he knew what division we'd be in, to sort out contracts for remaining players and recruit. How can you possibly conclude that Doolan doesn't know what he's doing recruitment wise based on last summer? There isn't a manager out there who gets recruitment 100% right. It is unfair not to take the context in to account. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 9 minutes ago, fenski said: He got the job mid-season, it was his first managerial role, the club was in a mess, his dad died, he had limited backroom staff, he was wholly occupied on managing the team into and through an extended set of play-offs games, he lost the services of arguably the club's four best players. There was uncertainty over budget/funds available. Then he had a shorter close season once he knew what division we'd be in, to sort out contracts for remaining players and recruit. How can you possibly conclude that Doolan doesn't know what he's doing recruitment wise based on last summer? There isn't a manager out there who gets recruitment 100% right. It is unfair not to take the context in to account. I didn’t once criticise the games he managed last season you brought that in. He has got plenty of things right. I criticised his signings solely last summer. He got the majority of the signings wrong- we could have signed a decent signings like Euan East who were still available and would have been a big improvement on the likes of Muirhead, Williams etc. Too many average players like Sneddon and Bannigan were rewarded with new deals, undeservedly in my opinion. Plenty of others signed were not good enough. Hopefully he has learned The arguments about us being weeks behind everyone is overused. We only found out one week after Airdrie what division we were in and the likes of Morton etc had barely made any signings before us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenski Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: How many “ transition seasons “ do you want ? Perhaps 'transition season' implies acceptance that we are not likely to be promoted, perhaps even some acceptance that we are not ready to compete in the division above, recognising that sustainable improvements in performance takes time. So if we're accepting that, then the sooner we know conclusively we'll be in the Championship next year, the sooner plans for next season can be executed. Contracts extended, list of transfer targets identified etc, so we can mount a 'serious title challenge' next season. So no, I don't want another 'transition season'. I want to use this one, just this one, to ensure in whatever way that next season is not another 'transition season'. If we expect more of this season and sack management team, ask for board to step down, release players en masse, etc, then I think you're virtually guaranteeing another 'transition season'. I realise that this is a pointless argument to make to some - it will be perceived as weak and defeatist. Ho-hum... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenski Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, Third Lanark said: I didn’t once criticise the games he managed last season you brought that in. He has got plenty of things right. I criticised his signings solely last summer. He got the majority of the signings wrong- we could have signed a decent signings like Euan East who were still available and would have been a big improvement on the likes of Muirhead, Williams etc. Too many average players like Sneddon and Bannigan were rewarded with new deals, undeservedly in my opinion. Plenty of others signed were not good enough. Hopefully he has learned The arguments about us being weeks behind everyone is overused. We only found out one week after Airdrie what division we were in and the likes of Morton etc had barely made any signings before us. I didn't say you did. But you did imply Doolan doesn't know what he's doing recruitment wise. And I offered a list of extenuating circumstances for why recruitment last summer was not indicative of how it might be in the future. Assuming he stays in management I guess we'll find out one way or the other in the future. I have a suspicion that he won't though. Which is another subject entirely... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 9 minutes ago, fenski said: Perhaps 'transition season' implies acceptance that we are not likely to be promoted, perhaps even some acceptance that we are not ready to compete in the division above, recognising that sustainable improvements in performance takes time. So if we're accepting that, then the sooner we know conclusively we'll be in the Championship next year, the sooner plans for next season can be executed. Contracts extended, list of transfer targets identified etc, so we can mount a 'serious title challenge' next season. So no, I don't want another 'transition season'. I want to use this one, just this one, to ensure in whatever way that next season is not another 'transition season'. If we expect more of this season and sack management team, ask for board to step down, release players en masse, etc, then I think you're virtually guaranteeing another 'transition season'. I realise that this is a pointless argument to make to some - it will be perceived as weak and defeatist. Ho-hum... You deal the hand you get in Football McCall was sacked because he was not going to get us promoted according the the Board No one said - look at the turmoil of the previous Board - Look at the Fan Protests - look at the Club Going Bust - look at the lack of experience in Running a Football Club of the New Board Nope the New Board were in the Job a few Weeks - first item on the Agenda - sack the Manager So sorry - there is not a Set of Rules for certain people and a different Set by others If McCalls Target was Promotion and they deemed him to be failing against that Target in February - this Years Target is 3rd - if we fail both the Manager & those who set the objective go - as it was done jointly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, fenski said: I didn't say you did. But you did imply Doolan doesn't know what he's doing recruitment wise. And I offered a list of extenuating circumstances for why recruitment last summer was not indicative of how it might be in the future. Assuming he stays in management I guess we'll find out one way or the other in the future. I have a suspicion that he won't though. Which is another subject entirely... And your extenuating circumstances are very fair points. The only exception I felt was that too many were quick to jump on the we were weeks behind everyone else. As you say we will see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: You deal the hand you get in Football - Dools knew what he was taking over and he actually took over a in far better position than McCall got from Caldwell - Dools inherited a decent squad McCall was sacked because he was not going to get us promoted according the the Board No one said - look at the turmoil of the previous Board - Look at the Fan Protests - look at the Club Going Bust - look at the lack of experience in Running a Football Club of the New Board Nope the New Board were in the Job a few Weeks - first item on the Agenda - sack the Manager So sorry - there is not a Set of Rules for certain people and a different Set by others If McCalls Target was Promotion and they deemed him to be failing against that Target in February - this Years Target is 3rd - if we fail both the Manager & those who set the objective go - as it was done jointly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 18 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: You deal the hand you get in Football McCall was sacked because he was not going to get us promoted according the the Board No one said - look at the turmoil of the previous Board - Look at the Fan Protests - look at the Club Going Bust - look at the lack of experience in Running a Football Club of the New Board Nope the New Board were in the Job a few Weeks - first item on the Agenda - sack the Manager So sorry - there is not a Set of Rules for certain people and a different Set by others If McCalls Target was Promotion and they deemed him to be failing against that Target in February - this Years Target is 3rd - if we fail both the Manager & those who set the objective go - as it was done jointly Do you feel that should be how it works going forward? Set the target at the beginning of the year, and if the target isn’t met, then sack the manager/board and replace? Seems a fairly untenable strategy to me, unless your argument is, “well then, set the target really low.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 I had no illusions that we would go up this season. To my mind this season was always about building for next season. My issues is that I see no sign that we are building for next season. We have an aging squad, recruitment has been poor and on field performances are getting worse. We would need a miraculous turnaround to be in contention next season even in a more open league. Agree we have no money to attract a new manager from another club or pay big wages for more experience thats why if Doolan goes Graham may well be worth a try. I think at this level having a manager with a chip on the shoulder that doesn't suffer fools can get you a long way. Alternatively Doolan needs to show he has that nasty/win at all costs mentality by dropping players and altering his coaching/recruitment team. I know we all think Williams can make a mistake or two and Doolan may not get on with Mitchell but what does he have to lose by playing them when he is conceding 13 goals in 4 games. How much worse would a defence with those two in it be? At the very least he would be saying to the others that your position isn't safe I'm not sure what is getting coached on the training field but last season we became a lot more solid team when Doolan took over and indeed hardly conceded any goals during the end of the season run by doing basic things like not having both fullbacks attack at the same time and by switching to 4-4-2. Having McBeth should open up other formations like 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-4-1 etc but we are still playing 4-2-3-1. At what point does is going to try something different to address issues that have been there since day 1 of this season? I hope Doolan can turn this around but another few games of losing 3 goals or more surely suggest its time to go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The reason we signed Mcbeth is because we had no Midfield worth talking about so we drop Mcbeth - its his fault Until Doolan works out how to get the rest of the team to work better with McBeth in the team, he should be dropped. He wasn’t slow to drop Stanway and McKenzie after the Arbroath game. The facts remain that from November in that 13 game period we won 8 and drew 3 games. If it’s not broke don’t fix it, comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 13 minutes ago, ChiThistle said: Do you feel that should be how it works going forward? Set the target at the beginning of the year, and if the target isn’t met, then sack the manager/board and replace? Seems a fairly untenable strategy to me, unless your argument is, “well then, set the target really low.” Well that Strategy has been set by the Board - our previous Manager got a Target of Promotion by the JLo Board ( we have no idea how realistic it was - or the conditions surrounding it ) he was sacked because the New Board felt that the target was not going to be met- last February Soo the same Board have Set Dools a Target of 3rd Pace - they therefore have to apply the same consistency they measured ( & fired ) the previous Manager on - they have set the Modus Operandi - and by extension - they need to apply the same logic to there own positions The Figure Set by the Jlo Board was Promotion outright ( win the league ) - now given the resources of Dundee & QP at the time - that would seem highly ambitious - now even more bizarre is the fact the replacement Board ( whilst finding carcrashes all over the place in finances etc ) uniquely took this Promotion Target by the previous Board - as 100 % accurate & deliverable - few weeks into the Job - sacked the Manager as they did not believe he would achieve it Sooo - the current Board have to apply the same standards -otherwise people will conclude it was more than just results for sacking the previous Manager Yes - what your saying is correct - its a ridiculous strategy - but Hey Ho- that's the rules they made up so they can follow them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 28 minutes ago, laukat said: I had no illusions that we would go up this season. To my mind this season was always about building for next season. My issues is that I see no sign that we are building for next season. We have an aging squad, recruitment has been poor and on field performances are getting worse. We would need a miraculous turnaround to be in contention next season even in a more open league. Agree we have no money to attract a new manager from another club or pay big wages for more experience thats why if Doolan goes Graham may well be worth a try. I think at this level having a manager with a chip on the shoulder that doesn't suffer fools can get you a long way. Alternatively Doolan needs to show he has that nasty/win at all costs mentality by dropping players and altering his coaching/recruitment team. I know we all think Williams can make a mistake or two and Doolan may not get on with Mitchell but what does he have to lose by playing them when he is conceding 13 goals in 4 games. How much worse would a defence with those two in it be? At the very least he would be saying to the others that your position isn't safe I'm not sure what is getting coached on the training field but last season we became a lot more solid team when Doolan took over and indeed hardly conceded any goals during the end of the season run by doing basic things like not having both fullbacks attack at the same time and by switching to 4-4-2. Having McBeth should open up other formations like 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-1-4-1 etc but we are still playing 4-2-3-1. At what point does is going to try something different to address issues that have been there since day 1 of this season? I hope Doolan can turn this around but another few games of losing 3 goals or more surely suggest its time to go We got £500K Investment - we are forcasting a £150K loss - we got a very positive report at the AGM on Finances - so its not correct that we have "No Money" according to the AGM ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, Third Lanark said: Not that he should be sacked currently but To be fair the mistakes made in the livi cup game have ended up costing the club several hundred thousands of pounds. That’s a very expensive mistake alone. That several hundred thousand pound’s could have been used for all manner of things to help the club I’m not sure where the several hundreds of thousands comes from. We got around £200k against Rangers because Ibrox was full and game was on TV. Parkhead is rarely half full for cup games against lower league opposition and game may not have been selected for TV. Yes it cost us money, but all managers make mistakes or get outfoxed by opposition managers which makes their decision the wrong one. Sacking a manager every time they made a decision would have teams changing managers fortnightly. He got it spot on against County, did we offer him a rise? We can’t go calling for his head in one cup game as decisions cost us money, where the previous cup game his decisions made us money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle88 Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 We signed one of the best rated defenders in the league on a 18 month contract and didn’t rest Muirhead who has played every game this season im sure. Lawless and Fitzpatrick have started nearly every single game and we don’t have and one to fill in for them. So if you want to talk about strategy and mistakes, Alston has been absolutely shocking bar 2 decent goals.. McDonald got released after, what 5 months ? Williamson signed for a lower league team than we are in. We have Williams who was apparently a great player and Doolan hyped up having a scouting team in place because we got him? But we used our Budget in January to bring in Oreilly. What’s our options for the way he plays ? We only have 2 wide players at the club. At least mix it up a bit. Biggest shock to me at this point is Milne and Fitz signed new deals. Useless recruitment. Best work we have done is keeping players McCall signed big ******* shock ! Fed up with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 11 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: We got £500K Investment - we are forcasting a £150K loss - we got a very positive report at the AGM on Finances - so its not correct that we have "No Money" according to the AGM ? Jim we are trying to build up cash reserves of which we had none. We may have money but none available to spend. Cash income isn’t steady over the season it’s front end loaded (Season tickets and sponsorship) and tail end loaded (prize money). Our outgoings though are continual, and we can get unexpected hits to this via postponements due to weather etc, or game’s getting moved to Fridays to suit TV (which we get nothing extra for except less hospitality and less walk up fans especially away fans). The building of reserves builds us a safety net for the peaks and troughs of income vs expenditure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Norgethistle said: Jim we are trying to build up cash reserves of which we had none. We may have money but none available to spend. Cash income isn’t steady over the season it’s front end loaded (Season tickets and sponsorship) and tail end loaded (prize money). Our outgoings though are continual, and we can get unexpected hits to this via postponements due to weather etc, or game’s getting moved to Fridays to suit TV (which we get nothing extra for except less hospitality and less walk up fans especially away fans). The building of reserves builds us a safety net for the peaks and troughs of income vs expenditure. So as previously stated the options are a) Stick with Dools no matter what b) or appoint another "Legend" with zero management experience How come other Championship Teams manage to sack Managers and not have to appiont inexperienced "legends" ? Are there finances so much better than Thistles ? Maybe the Manager isn't the Core Problem ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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