MerryHell Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 A few people on other forums are suggesting that the player embargo counts towards player sales as well as player purchases - does anyone know if this is true? If they can't even sell their assets, they truely do not have a paddle. I too wanted 30 points, but expected 10 so am pleasantly surprised by todays ruling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beep0608 Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 A few people on other forums are suggesting that the player embargo counts towards player sales as well as player purchases - does anyone know if this is true? If they can't even sell their assets, they truely do not have a paddle. I too wanted 30 points, but expected 10 so am pleasantly surprised by todays ruling. Apparently the talk amongst certain Premier clubs is not to worry about relegation this season. In other words there will be league reconstruction. That would, or could mean no relegation from the 1st. However, the SFL also said they will "reconsider the matter and deal with the club as it sees fit", if the Tayside club are still in administration by 31 March 2011. So....they could presumably then do what they did to Livvi. They're holding that back in reserve. By ra way, the administrator is trying to make the SFL feel guilty about putting them out of business. B*ll*cks. What difference would a season in the 2nd make if they're a viable investment at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson Towers Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Agree 100% I also have a real concern about how this will affect Thistle and the rest of the division. By virtually assuring automatic relegation for Dundee the SFL may have guaranteed half a season of meaningless games for many of the teams. Attendances are only going to decline. I haven't been all season as I just can't get excited enough to justify the money it costs, and I can see many people taking the same view. sigh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKennan Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I'm sure that in the midst of the high fives and hoots of derision over Dundee's catastrophic collapse our new best pals in the Thistle boardroom will be preparing a statement to reassure the fans all our club's financial affairs are in order and we can enjoy the meltdown at Dens Park with a sense of impoverished piety. You know it makes sense guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alx Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Given that the Dundee forums are full of really stupid people. I hate to use a fatuous insult but they really do talk the way old firm fans do.... lost their marbles. I had a couple of thoughts: -1- Where are their fans spokespeople, Dee for Life I think they're called? Someone needs to tell these numpties the truth. In particular they had better not blame the SFL if they can't get out of admin. What's the big deal about being in a lower division for a couple of years, it's got to be better than going bust? -2- Re: away boycott. Idiots! Who needs the money the most, the team in admin or the team that's not in admin? Doh! Also, if Dundee boycott a team for one game left this season, too bad. If everyone else boycotts all the games at Dens???? Doh! You couldn't slap sense into them with a plank of wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 It would be magic if we took up a massive bannner that read 'cheats never prosper' up to Dens on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Just as an alternative I suggested a standard 10 pt (arbitrary) penalty and a further penalty dependent on the pay out of the CVA to take effect the following season. I should add that the length of time spent in administration should also be punishable. I challenge anyone to explain why a 25 pt penalty. If for sake of an argument Raith went into admin today and were deducted 25 points there's a reasonable chance they'd avoid relegation. The only reason that would be a possibility was they had accrued so many points by cheating (financial) prior to deduction in the first place. If us or say Morton went into admin for less debt because in effect we had cheated less a 25 point deduction would relegate us. In other words if you're going to cheat financially make sure you do it on a big scale. In short the SFL is a most incompetent run organisation and to allow them to make arbitrary decisions is crazy. Dundee should have known the strictures of their punishment before announcing administration. I don't entirely disagree with you, but I think 25 pts is a pretty fair punishment. Personally, I'd make the punishment based on how much is paid back to creditors. Pay back 10p in the pound? Then their points total at the end of the season should be reduced by 90%. 25p? 75%, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I really don't get this argument that Dundee are coming out with that relegation to Div 2 will kill the club. It happened to us after Save the Jags and I don't remember us getting too much sympathy. It might actually be the best thing that could happen to them as a club as it might, finally, force them to wake up and live within their means, even if it means them having to go p/t for a couple of seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Apparently the talk amongst certain Premier clubs is not to worry about relegation this season. In other words there will be league reconstruction. That would, or could mean no relegation from the 1st. However, the SFL also said they will "reconsider the matter and deal with the club as it sees fit", if the Tayside club are still in administration by 31 March 2011. So....they could presumably then do what they did to Livvi. They're holding that back in reserve. By ra way, the administrator is trying to make the SFL feel guilty about putting them out of business. B*ll*cks. What difference would a season in the 2nd make if they're a viable investment at all? Excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alx Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 By coincidence someone asked me at the weekend 'would you still buy a season ticket if we went down to the second division. I said 'of course, it's not the end of the world'. I've got some good memories of the second division, ahem.... probably the winning it bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 By coincidence someone asked me at the weekend 'would you still buy a season ticket if we went down to the second division. I said 'of course, it's not the end of the world'. I've got some good memories of the second division, ahem.... probably the winning it bit. Jukka Santala, for one !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) Apparently the talk amongst certain Premier clubs is not to worry about relegation this season. In other words there will be league reconstruction. That would, or could mean no relegation from the 1st. However, the SFL also said they will "reconsider the matter and deal with the club as it sees fit", if the Tayside club are still in administration by 31 March 2011. So....they could presumably then do what they did to Livvi. They're holding that back in reserve. By ra way, the administrator is trying to make the SFL feel guilty about putting them out of business. B*ll*cks. What difference would a season in the 2nd make if they're a viable investment at all? The administrator seems to be acting like a supporter saying things like that - or at least he's in danger of sounding like it. His only remit is to see that creditors get as much as possible (OK if possible keeping the club from going out of business but his main remit is the creditors surely) for instance by selling on the likes of Harkins and Leigh Griffiths - and that would make relegation for Dundee likely so why as you say would them getting relegated come into what he is required to do. Dundee have a big support, they can survive in a lower division. That shouldn't come into his thoughts at all. Edited November 2, 2010 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I don't entirely disagree with you, but I think 25 pts is a pretty fair punishment. Personally, I'd make the punishment based on how much is paid back to creditors. Pay back 10p in the pound? Then their points total at the end of the season should be reduced by 90%. 25p? 75%, and so on. That's along the lines of what I posted elsewhere. I think you've got to take both the time in administration and the amount of the CVA into consideration. That's why I'd have say a 10pt penalty for going into admin then a further points deduction the following season based on above criteria. The SFL idiots by continuing to hand out arbitrary punishment are increasingly likely to stumble into a situation where they're open to litigation either from the offending club or past offenders like Dundee or Livi. The other thing that could of course happen is that appeals to the SFA are as often as not successful and the SFL are continually undermined. Going off on a tangent & rant now... Most of us agree that there's too many bodies running (or more correctly trying to run) Scottish Football. Of the three main bodies the SFA are necessary for obvious reasons and the SPL being a breakaway organisation are highly unlikely to return to the fold. So that leaves the SFL who seem happy to run a loss making cup, a league cup, which could just as easily be run by either of the other two bodies and the jewel in the SFL's crown three repetitive leagues of ten that nobody I've ever spoken to wants. Into the bargain one of the leagues has no relegation as the SFL refuse entry and run their leagues as a closed shop. The very fact that they've no statutory punishment in place to deal with financially offending clubs shows just how incompetent the SFL has become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas clark Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) I expect to get blown out of the water for this but football in general has become the plaything of the rich. Who amongst us would complain if the current Chelsea owner repeated the Ken Bates era at Firhill? It'd be chump change to him. I do not think that clubs should be allowed to live beyond the income they generate, and that includes every-one. It should be a point deductible matter if an owner spends a penny of their own money on buying a player, or giving the club a break financially. Harsh? Yes. But it is supposed to be a sport, not an ego trip. Edited November 2, 2010 by douglas clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I expect to get blown out of the water for this but football in general has become the plaything of the rich. Who amongst us would complain if the current Chelsea owner repeated the Ken Bates era at Firhill? It'd be chump change to him. I do not think that clubs should be allowed to live beyond the income they generate, and that includes every-one. It should be a point deductible matter if an owner spends a penny of their own money on buying a player, or giving the club a break financially. Harsh? Yes. But it is supposed to be a sport, not an ego trip. Along the same lines when Dundee went into administration the previous time I believe they were spending circa 150% of turnover on wages. Dunfermline, who avoided same fate by getting their players to tear up their contracts and reduce their wages, were paying something between 120-135%. I suppose it's open to abuse but I would think a cap on the percentage amount of wages to turnover (maybe 60% max )would be worth introducing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I too wanted 30 points, but expected 10 so am pleasantly surprised by todays ruling. I concur. Apparently the talk amongst certain Premier clubs is not to worry about relegation this season. In other words there will be league reconstruction. That would, or could mean no relegation from the 1st. However, the SFL also said they will "reconsider the matter and deal with the club as it sees fit", if the Tayside club are still in administration by 31 March 2011. So....they could presumably then do what they did to Livvi. They're holding that back in reserve. By ra way, the administrator is trying to make the SFL feel guilty about putting them out of business. B*ll*cks. What difference would a season in the 2nd make if they're a viable investment at all? Can't see league reconstruction happening this season, against the SPL rules it is, to make changes without minimum 12 month notification period (but stopped them in past, it hasn't ) A further league or two demotion would be well justified. The administrator is a tool. As Mr Bunny said quite eloquently, he is coming out with guff that makes him sound like a fan, and not someone there to do a specific job, first and foremost for the creditors. Given that the Dundee forums are full of really stupid people. I hate to use a fatuous insult but they really do talk the way old firm fans do.... lost their marbles. I had a couple of thoughts: -1- Where are their fans spokespeople, Dee for Life I think they're called? Someone needs to tell these numpties the truth. In particular they had better not blame the SFL if they can't get out of admin. What's the big deal about being in a lower division for a couple of years, it's got to be better than going bust? -2- Re: away boycott. Idiots! Who needs the money the most, the team in admin or the team that's not in admin? Doh! Also, if Dundee boycott a team for one game left this season, too bad. If everyone else boycotts all the games at Dens???? Doh! You couldn't slap sense into them with a plank of wood. Majority of Dundee fans are idiots, with hardly two braincells between them to rub together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Of The Month Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I just noticed we have Morton in the 3rd last week of the season and Dundee in the 2nd last week of the season. Looks like we could have a big say in who goes down, I just hope we're safe by that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuthejag Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I haven't seen anybody mention this but will the administrator drop Harkins & Grifiths to save Dundee's biggest assets from being injured and becoming worthless? now that the 30 point deduction is in place (appeal pending of course)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigesige00 Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 An automatic relegation to the SFL 3rd Division should be the rule. When PTFC relegated from the SPL, Dundee should have been relegated instead of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 An automatic relegation to the SFL 3rd Division should be the rule. When PTFC relegated from the SPL, Dundee should have been relegated instead of us. Ataboy, sigesige00 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 I haven't seen anybody mention this but will the administrator drop Harkins & Grifiths to save Dundee's biggest assets from being injured and becoming worthless? now that the 30 point deduction is in place (appeal pending of course)? Fair point but i'm not sure that they could afford to considering if they weren't playing then they're not 'in the shop window' so to speak. As an aside to that, i'm pretty sure that there will be a few knocking at their door enquiring about Griffiths but genuinely I wonder how many will be in for Harkins- at the money they will be looking for - as i'm assuming they'll want to recover what they paid us for him at least as sell on clause also there. Don't get me wrong I like Harkins as a player but wasn't too unhappy to see him go as was a bit of a luxury player if your team not doing so well and think this was evident when things started blowing up for Dungdee last season. Too often went missing in the middle of midfield for me and doesn't do the tracking back a wide m/f is required to do. Probably explains why with all the talent he possessed he ended up with us in the 1st place. Not really our problem I guess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incredible Adam Spark Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Statement from the Dee's fans' group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennythistle Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Statement from the Dee's fans' group. They just don't get it do they.......everyone else's fault but there own !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWM Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Murder? Time those muppets took it on the chin and accepted their punishment, some could even say they are lucky to avoid a bigger punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Statement from the Dee's fans' group. I just read their statement. That lot are barking mad. They talk about a conspiracy of Dee hating clubs + the SFL, collaborating in a plan to murder, (their word, not mine) their beloved club. Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees. Dundee FC is in the trouble it finds itself today purely as a result of its own actions. It promised to conduct itself in accordance with League rules but instead flouted those rules. The club is the maker of its own misfortune. It has not been "murdered" but it has come pretty near to committing suicide. I do not want Dundee to go out of business but let's not forget, their fans had representitives on the board who turned a blind eye while things were going well. It beggars belief that they are now pointing the finger of blame at anyone except themselves. We should all take a lesson from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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