The Cup Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Don't speak too soon about not shipping 11 goals in the last few games, we have aberdeen, Motherwell, dundee united and celtix coming up again. The last 3 games were our chance to move off 11th place. We failed badly and now the teams around us have easier games and a game hand. Disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I was going to say there had been an awful lot of rubbish posted in this thread, but if I hit the ignore button on one poster, it actually becomes a lot more reasonable and even the posts I don't agree with have at least been thought out. We lack any sort of battling quality at the moment, and that is plain to see. A few have pointed out the main reason, if any of the 3 missing guys were available they'd walk into a defensive midfield position and make a difference. Bannigan proved as much on Saturday. Wouldn't totally excuse the manager, he has to take responsibility for his decisions, but the players need to get to a place where they're willing to do the dirty work and just battle for every ball as a team. We're a different team when we take the decision to press higher up the park, together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 ^ ^ ^ Spot on, Paulo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLightningUK Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't get to many games due to work commitments but was lucky enough to make it along last night. A few random observations.... Chris Erskine for me is a very Samaras-esque player. He played sideways a lot of the time last night, as did a lot of the team. Some displays of skill with the ball at his feet yes, but he had his head down and wasn't heading for goal. Lyle Taylor is a workhorse of a player. Higginbotham just seemed to play scrappy for most of the night. Not really any substance to what he was doing with the ball, 90% of the time he lost possession and St Johnstone went on the break. Gallagher seems like a better choice in goal just now due to experience and seems like he has a wiser head to try and control the defence. Gary Fraser is a bombscare, and played Thistle into trouble in their own half several times. Some of the plays being made in the central defensive midfield area, again sideways, were putting the ball right into the hands of Saints in a dangerous area. People are blaming Archie and yes, he brought those players in but at the same time he worked with what he had and has produced a decent squad from his resources. Unfortunately a few of the starting 11 for me personally aren't up to scratch with this level of football. Archie can't be held responsible for the individual decisions the players are making on the pitch. The tactics themselves are good, but the players aren't clicking on the pitch as individuals and in turn we are becoming a liability as a team. Saints were rotten last night and they produced a goal out of bugger all. The stand out thing for me last night was that Erskine didn't seem interested and isn't the Erskine we all know and love. Maybe this is down to match fitness or motivation. Some fans have these guys on a pedestal. Again similar to the Celtic fans' evaluation of Samaras. Erskine ran from one side of the park to the other with the ball at his feet, with his head down, with the ball a yard or two in front of him, and eventually he lost the ball and that was the play over. Yet he was applauded for it. Apologies this is all in one paragraph, for some reason it wouldn't let me start a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Over the course of this dreadful run of form it's been said often that St Mirren, Killie, Ross County, etc. are all rotten. That may be so, but they are winning games, and we are not; haven't done so at Firhill since spring last year. Doesn't that make us pretty rotten, in the big picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proudjag Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't get to many games due to work commitments but was lucky enough to make it along last night. A few random observations.... Chris Erskine for me is a very Samaras-esque player. He played sideways a lot of the time last night, as did a lot of the team. Some displays of skill with the ball at his feet yes, but he had his head down and wasn't heading for goal. Lyle Taylor is a workhorse of a player. Higginbotham just seemed to play scrappy for most of the night. Not really any substance to what he was doing with the ball, 90% of the time he lost possession and St Johnstone went on the break. Gallagher seems like a better choice in goal just now due to experience and seems like he has a wiser head to try and control the defence. Gary Fraser is a bombscare, and played Thistle into trouble in their own half several times. Some of the plays being made in the central defensive midfield area, again sideways, were putting the ball right into the hands of Saints in a dangerous area. People are blaming Archie and yes, he brought those players in but at the same time he worked with what he had and has produced a decent squad from his resources. Unfortunately a few of the starting 11 for me personally aren't up to scratch with this level of football. Archie can't be held responsible for the individual decisions the players are making on the pitch. The tactics themselves are good, but the players aren't clicking on the pitch as individuals and in turn we are becoming a liability as a team. Saints were rotten last night and they produced a goal out of bugger all. The stand out thing for me last night was that Erskine didn't seem interested and isn't the Erskine we all know and love. Maybe this is down to match fitness or motivation. Some fans have these guys on a pedestal. Again similar to the Celtic fans' evaluation of Samaras. Erskine ran from one side of the park to the other with the ball at his feet, with his head down, with the ball a yard or two in front of him, and eventually he lost the ball and that was the play over. Yet he was applauded for it. Apologies this is all in one paragraph, for some reason it wouldn't let me start a new one. Judging by your post its clear to see you don't make many games. Tactics are good, really? How do you reach that conclusion when our manager refuses to change the formation when it's clearly not getting points? I nearly fell of my seat with the erskine comments you are honestly having a laugh there. The guy slotted back in last night and it was clear for all to see that he was our only hope for a goal with his creativity, not his fault he was surrounded by muppets like odonnell n Craigen n Fraser last night. Put him on a pedestal?!?! Are you forgetting his contribution last season? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't get to many games due to work commitments but was lucky enough to make it along last night. A few random observations.... Chris Erskine for me is a very Samaras-esque player. He played sideways a lot of the time last night, as did a lot of the team. Some displays of skill with the ball at his feet yes, but he had his head down and wasn't heading for goal. Lyle Taylor is a workhorse of a player. Higginbotham just seemed to play scrappy for most of the night. Not really any substance to what he was doing with the ball, 90% of the time he lost possession and St Johnstone went on the break. Gallagher seems like a better choice in goal just now due to experience and seems like he has a wiser head to try and control the defence. Gary Fraser is a bombscare, and played Thistle into trouble in their own half several times. Some of the plays being made in the central defensive midfield area, again sideways, were putting the ball right into the hands of Saints in a dangerous area. People are blaming Archie and yes, he brought those players in but at the same time he worked with what he had and has produced a decent squad from his resources. Unfortunately a few of the starting 11 for me personally aren't up to scratch with this level of football. Archie can't be held responsible for the individual decisions the players are making on the pitch. The tactics themselves are good, but the players aren't clicking on the pitch as individuals and in turn we are becoming a liability as a team. Saints were rotten last night and they produced a goal out of bugger all. The stand out thing for me last night was that Erskine didn't seem interested and isn't the Erskine we all know and love. Maybe this is down to match fitness or motivation. Some fans have these guys on a pedestal. Again similar to the Celtic fans' evaluation of Samaras. Erskine ran from one side of the park to the other with the ball at his feet, with his head down, with the ball a yard or two in front of him, and eventually he lost the ball and that was the play over. Yet he was applauded for it. Apologies this is all in one paragraph, for some reason it wouldn't let me start a new one. Disagree totally, thought our best chances came from Erskine and for me was our best player. I would have cut him some slack if he had played poorly since it was his first game of the season for us and he only joined on monday but the fact is he did not play poorly in fact the exact opposite. As for the not interested comment - think your talking rubbish, took him a wee bit to get into the game - in his case not surprising as he wont have played with some fo the lads etc - but you could say it took out whole team at least 30 minutes to get into it and some were possibly not in it by 90 minutes. If anyone can get us through the play offs it will be Erskine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proudjag Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Disagree totally, thought our best chances came from Erskine and for me was our best player. I would have cut him some slack if he had played poorly since it was his first game of the season for us and he only joined on monday but the fact is he did not play poorly in fact the exact opposite. As for the not interested comment - think your talking rubbish, took him a wee bit to get into the game - in his case not surprising as he wont have played with some fo the lads etc - but you could say it took out whole team at least 30 minutes to get into it and some were possibly not in it by 90 minutes. If anyone can get us through the play offs it will be Erskine. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLightningUK Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Disagree if you want. I thought Erskine was sh*te last night. I'm not forgetting his contribution last season at all. But this isn't last season and this isn't the 1st Division. As for the formation comments. What I saw last night was an abundance of individual errors and not necessarily tactical errors. St Johnstone were garbage aswell. With most of the TV games I have seen Thistle match these teams but they have players who can create a chance out of thin air and we don't really. I stand by it just now that I don't think he is the answer but finger crossed come May everyone can come back here and get it up me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I too thought Erskine had a very good game. Linked up well with Higgy and Taylor (without having played with them before), and latterly Doolan. I thought his attitude was summed up by his burst into the box in the 2nd half. He beat his man, changed direction, got to the line and tried to cut it back. It was blocked. The first thing he did was apologise to Taylor for not being able to get it to him. That link up play, along with the return of Bannigan and ATS, actually has me kindling yet another little spark of optimism for Saturday. Yes, I'm mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinKelvin Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Disagree if you want. I thought Erskine was sh*te last night. I'm not forgetting his contribution last season at all. But this isn't last season and this isn't the 1st Division. As for the formation comments. What I saw last night was an abundance of individual errors and not necessarily tactical errors. St Johnstone were garbage aswell. With most of the TV games I have seen Thistle match these teams but they have players who can create a chance out of thin air and we don't really. I stand by it just now that I don't think he is the answer but finger crossed come May everyone can come back here and get it up me. You must have been the only one in the stadium who didn't see Erskine controlling the ball in difficult situations, gaining possession, and powering forward - while looking up and around him for passes. He did not have his head down. Several times he found his man with a pass on the edge of the opposition box and the play fizzled out with the next Jags player's poor choices. He was by far and away our best, most confident and danegrous-looking player last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLightningUK Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 You must have been the only one in the stadium who didn't see Erskine controlling the ball in difficult situations, gaining possession, and powering forward - while looking up and around him for passes. He did not have his head down. Several times he found his man with a pass on the edge of the opposition box and the play fizzled out with the next Jags player's poor choices. He was by far and away our best, most confident and danegrous-looking player last night Peronally I thought it was Taylor and thought Mair had a cool game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proudjag Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Disagree if you want. I thought Erskine was sh*te last night. I'm not forgetting his contribution last season at all. But this isn't last season and this isn't the 1st Division. As for the formation comments. What I saw last night was an abundance of individual errors and not necessarily tactical errors. St Johnstone were garbage aswell. With most of the TV games I have seen Thistle match these teams but they have players who can create a chance out of thin air and we don't really. I stand by it just now that I don't think he is the answer but finger crossed come May everyone can come back here and get it up me. Not necessarily tactical errors?! Playing two young, inexperienced boys in midfield who couldn't rustle up a crunching tackle between them wen you've got an experienced campaigner in Kerr in the stands? I'm not saying Kerr is the answer far from it but would have been the better option. While still on tactics why not play Doolan up with Taylor from the off? We all saw how Taylor was treated Saturday and the poor boy looked isolated last night till Doolan joined him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 When it gets to the point you hear 10 comments from 10 different people around you and all of them are an improvement on what is happening on the park questions need asked. Formations, substituions, tactics, corners and motivation all need work. I don't want Archie sacked, but if he left tomorrow I wouldn't be disappointed. Relegation would be a disaster, we wouldn't keep any of the players that were good at that level but struggled at this. Other diddy SPL teams would pick up Lawless, Bannigan, ATS, sbourne and Higginbotham, others could leave as well. Where does that leave us in a league with Rangers, Hearts and a few other clubs of similar or slightly larger stature/wage bills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 In our last 4 games we've picked up 5 points, which for a team at our end of the table isn't bad. Our big problem, I feel, is that the team has no idea how to see a game out at this level, and that will only come with experience. Last nights display by St Johnstone was a lesson in just that, how to absolutely shit fest your way to a win, and in all honesty at this point, I'd be perfectly happy to watch us try that. Last night we were poor, but let's not forget that we did have our chances, this talk of Archie leaving would be nowhere to be seen if we could have taken 1 or 2 of them. I'm not saying that we should be blindly loyal to Archie regardless of what is going on, but honestly, we have a manger who the majority of the fans love, who loves thistle and will be dedicated to the job no matter what, and worst case scenario we face is that we get a tie against a lower division team in order to stay up. Last night was bad. The end of Killie and Ross County was bad, no questions about that. Some of our players simply aren't good enough, and we know this. But we can hardly blame Archie entirely for this. The guy who are now looking out their depth this season (Balatoni, SOD, Craigen to an extent) were all very good players for us last season. Its a gamble whether they will be able to make the step up or not. They haven't been able to yet. Archie must stay, because even if we finish 11th, relegation is by no means a certainty. Because I don't believe that anyone we could bring in to replace him would be any sort of improvement. Because some of the names getting branded about are ridiculous, Owen Coyle for ****s sake? No chance. Lets not forget that we got promoted ahead of schedule. We had a team that wasn't ready for promotion really, but still managed it. We're seeing from the teams around us the benefits of having an experienced squad who know how to stay in a division at all costs. If we manage to stay up, I honestly believe that Archie will prove himself to be the man for the job, and that next time around we will be able to demonstrate an ability to shitfest as that is the difference between us and the teams around us. They know how to win dirty. We don't. P.S. Regarding Mark Kerr. He's not good enough. Simple. I don't care how much experience he has, he's a worse player than our other options. If he gets played, I'll be much more worried Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Some fans just have it in for Kerr!!! Some players have been shocking this season were players who haven't even played a spl game get pelters. Craigen is shocking end off!!! Balatoni is shocking!!! Muirhead isn't great!!!! Elliot isn't great!!! Frobes isn't great!!! Piccolo got thistle poty month dropped instead of balatoni!!!! Go on and on!!! Baird should be on the bench before some of the players on it and that's a fact!!! Excessive use of exclamation marks makes a point so much more valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 If we aren't relegated this year then we'll probably go down the year after. Dundee will have a fair bit of money. I don't want to watch another season of this pish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peebles Tackle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 A lot of folk in here guilty of a lot of knee jerk knicker wetting. Great season last year, great football & won the league. Always going to be tough given the financial constraints & relative inexperience of the squad. I'm sorry, but I said at the end of last season that I wouldn't be bothered if we were relegated. I stand by that. Archie needs, nay, deserves time. January signings been positive. Let's see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 If we aren't relegated this year then we'll probably go down the year after. Dundee will have a fair bit of money. I don't want to watch another season of this pish. And if we don't go down that season then it will be the next one or the one after that or a comet could hit the planet before then! Lets try and keep a sense of perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco77 Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 When we started this season i said I would be extremely happy if we finished 10th. We are still in a position to achieve that goal. Granted we need to start picking up some more points but its well within reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearchar Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Not necessarily tactical errors?! Playing two young, inexperienced boys in midfield who couldn't rustle up a crunching tackle between them wen you've got an experienced campaigner in Kerr in the stands? I'm not saying Kerr is the answer far from it but would have been the better option. While still on tactics why not play Doolan up with Taylor from the off? We all saw how Taylor was treated Saturday and the poor boy looked isolated last night till Doolan joined him. Will you please stop reading my mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Kadriorg Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 The squad is short on bodies in general and with injuries and suspensions we are or have been down to the bare bones (or worse) in key positions. Defensive midfield due to injuries and Centre Half and Striker due to not having much in reserve (until recent signings/loanees) spring to mind. The players we do have are young maybe this season will be a learning experience and they'll be more ready for this level next season (if we can manage to survive it via the playoffs or otherwise) or maybe they aren't good enough (likely as not some mixture of both). This season always was about surviving and anything above that was gravy. Our options to make changes when individual players are showing poor form is limited since we have relatively few replacement options due to the small squad and continuing to play guys when they are out of form isn't necessarily the way for them to find their best form again. Our signing options are, mostly, limited by our budget to promising younger guys who might be able to make the step up and if they do will probably use us as a stepping stone to bigger and better (paid) things or "experienced" guys who we know for (almost) sure are not good enough for this or they'd still be getting picked up by our more established rivals. This will likely be the case for the forseeable future unless and until we have become established as a fixture in the top league. Probably we could do with a few more old heads to help rally the kids when things aren't going well (in an individual game or overall) but our options in that respect are likely to remain other premier teams castoffs and while some of these might just be a bad fit at a particular club or the odd man out due to strength in depth most of the experienced (insert team name) rejects that we can afford are not going to improve us much or we wouldn't be able to afford them. Is this a defeatest attitude? I prefer realistic. So is it Archie's fault? Mostly not for the reasons outlined above. We are about where our budget says we should be. We have shown the typical progression of a newly promoted team start the season well and get worse as things proceed as A) New opponents work out what they need to do to stop what it is that we do. B/ Confidence starts to become less as a team that was used to winning most games in the division below starts to lose the feeling of invicibility that goes along with that. C) This ebbing confidence leads to more poor results. at this point either D1) The team forgets what it did and how it was to be successful and the results don't come and relegation follows. (Manager and Players fail) or D2) The team remembers what it did and how to succeed and (enough) results come to stabilise. (Manager and/or Players succeed) or D3) The team finds a new way to achieve success and (enough) results come to stabilise. (Manager and/or Players succeed) or D4) Derek Adams gets to buy a whole new team because he's inexplicably the rich chairman's pet manager. Given we can pretty much discount D4 we are left with the other 3 options for the rest of the season with one caveat. Due to Hearts points deduction we could continue to perform in a manner that would suggest option D1 but as long as we can achieve D2 or D3 over 2 games in the playoff all is well. This is clearly not a long term fix though and a bit of a pyrrhic victory as without working out how to win again with some degree of regularity and regaining confidence in the way we play the next season is likely to be a train wreck. So 15 (or 17) games to find enough ways to win so we can have another season of torture playing these foul anti-football merchants while we try to improve without turning into them in the process. 'Mon the Jags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Football is not governed by economic determinism or else Motherwell should always be below Aberdeen, Hibs and Dundee Urd .... It's a very easy kop out We all thought 10th was our objective but this is now looking more difficult The Board won't sack Archie so they should bring in someone to help him like Fulham have done with Ray Wilkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Kadriorg Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Football is not ENTIRELY governed by economic determinism But it mostly is and managers who make a significant difference to a clubs position in their respective league relative to to their spending and over the long term are rare indeed. Motherwell have been overachieving magnificently for the last few years and have to be the longer term model of what can be achieved on a relatively low budget. But the likelihood is that they too will regress to the mean at some point when the things they are doing more successfully than other richer clubs, or clubs spending outwith their means, at the moment become the norm (unless they succeed in finding other new ways to gain the extra 2%). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Who should we bring in to help Archie ? Owen Coyle ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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