Just In 0-0 V Saints

[jlsarmy]

Thought it was a poor game yesterday, maybe the conditions played a part in that. Criticism of Craigen is a bit over the top, I'm not sure Craigen is a goal scorer at all, think I can only remember him scoring 2 or 3 times in the last 3 seasons so to suddenly expect him to become a goal scoring machine is not being realistic . What he does offer is enthusiasm and a running power which our £2000.00 per week new recruit from Hearts doesn't appear to have and Archie also seems to recognise this as well by benching Stevenson.

The system we play with only 1 upfront only works if the midfield and the full backs press up the park if they don't its Doolan against 4 or 5 defenders . Having watched the last 2 games , I think we've only created about 3 or 4 chances for the strikers and some of them are arguably only half chances, maybe when Higgy comes back that will hopefully change things and give us that creative spark which can win games .

[Mr Bunny]

He plays better on the left, which is odd. I love those tackles he does when he stretches full length and hooks the ball back from behind. Did a great one on O'Halloran towards the end of the second half.

 

 

Defensively I think McMillan is very solid. However he often slows attacks down the left because he wants to get it on to his right foot. At the moment though it's more important to be defensively sound and on that point he is superior to anyone else we've got at the moment. Pity he is so one footed though because he is quick and could be useful attacking on the left if he'd cross with his left foot.

[read'n'yell]

The one thing (ok, two things) that frustrates me the most about this team, is taking two passes instead of one. It just slows us down and lets the other team get back. Without fail we always do two passes along the back or in midfield, rather than one direct pass to the wings. Short passing is good sometimes but other times being slightly more direct is far better. We don't stretch the game.

 

Secondly, Elliot and Lawless have a real knack of not going beyond their man and coming short for the ball. I don't know if this is a tactic incase we lose possesion. But all it means is we never get in behind down the wings, which is when we can start providing Doolan with some service. It's far easier to run behind and receive the ball with the defender on the turn, than it is to always play infront of a defence (which is all we have done with the exception of O'Donnell recently).

[Lenziejag]

Maybe we are playing this way because the players are not too confident in the defence ? If the Seaborne-Frans/Seaborne-Conrad/Frans-Conrad partnership becomes more solid, that might encourage a bit more adventure

[Jag]

I thought we played reasonably well yesterday and just lacked that cutting edge or someone to give us that spark needed. I genuinely feel that had we scored one we would have gone on to win by a few. St Johnstone were obviously desperate to keep a clean sheet, which is understandable given their recent run of form, and we just couldn't break them down.

 

I thought our ball retention yesterday was better than it has been and we totally dominated the play over two thirds of the pitch, unfortunately not having a decent final ball or that wee bit of creativity in the final third to get the goal required.

 

I watched Stuart Bannigan closely yesterday and I think his first misplaced pass came half way through the second half. I must admit, there was a period last season that I was criticising him a lot as he did have a serious dip in form but this guy for me is the real deal. His ability to create space for himself and play the simple pass while making it look easy is a joy to watch. I actually feel he is not getting the credit he deserves and I think a lot of us are now taking him for granted. He rarely gives the ball away and has got a very cool head (when he has the ball, not when challenging) for one so young. For me he was our best player, closely followed by Jordan McMillan. McMillan doesn't give us the overlaps that ATS did but I reckon he's our best defender. Frans looked good in the air and reasonable on the ground. How good is it knowing we are going to be dominant in the air for a change?

 

As far as the Craigen argument goes my view is this - If a player is picked to play for Partick Thistle and goes out on to the pitch and gives us his all, tries his best, chases every lost cause, never hides and is proud to play for the club then I can't knock him as an individual. James Craigen has come a very long way in a short space of time (he is only 23) and I would much rather he was in the team at the moment bursting a gut than Ryan Stevenson who, so far, has done nothing to endear himself to the fans. I'm sure he will be on the bench more than he starts this season but, while we have some of our more influential players sidelined, I am happy that Craigen is in the team and thought he performed pretty well yesterday. I don't know if this makes me a 'Craigen lover' or not but I am certainly a lover of players that put on the red and yellow of Partick Thistle and put in as much effort as every one of us would if we ever had the opportunity.

[allyo]

^^^^

 

Great post Jag

[robphil]

Thanks for your post, my point (not made that clearly) perhaps says more about the state of the game in Scotland than anything. Nevertheless, I have watched us playing teams off the park to lose by narrow margins. My point is that we are more than capable of holding our own with most of the so-called 'better' teams in Scotland and, had we been able to convert a few more chances, would have been suffering a nose-bleed at the top of the pishy SPFL.

 

The names that you mention are mostly known to me as I'm not that young myself, but we can't compare like with like. There's no comparison in my opinion. The OF for one were a different force and the game was just, well, different. Most clubs had stand out fans favourites who could have competed on anyone's starting line-up. All that said and respecting your opinion, I do believe we're on the up and, returning to my point above, should be better placed than we are. Let's face facts, we are basically without many fans, no money to spend and have a threadbare squad. But things could be a lot worse; and at least we don't have to endure punt 'n' chase football. Imagine that yesterday; it would have been like playing football with a beach ball. So in conclusion, not perfect but better than we can reasonably expect. Is that me being positive? Hope so...

you make some really good points and also go some way to answering lenziejag's 'where have all the fans gone'?

in days of yore, every club (as you say) had stars you wanted to see; hibs - joe baker, gordon smith, bobby johnstone...hearts - alec young, dave mackay...dundee- alan gilzean, andy penman, alan cousin..i could go on and on...

not a single st johnstone player was worth one penny of our entrance money. so, yes, you are right to voice a positive note. this may be far from the greatest thistle team of all time but in terms of entertainment we are among the best in the land

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

I'm not saying it's not criticism of the manager, but I would like to think its open to discussion & constructive.

 

I genuinely feel a lot of folk's opinions are blinkered as Archibald a 'legend''.

 

Just so long as I understand that finishing in the bottom 2 this season doesn't matter as we've a young manager learning his trade.

 

Just out of curiosity, when does this cease to be? Alex Neill a young manager? Paul Hartley? What about Jackie McNamara?

 

Archibald managed at the top level longer than all of them wit the exception of the 4/5 months McNamara got as a head start when joining DU so not sure this 'young manager learning his trade' argument can still be used.

 

Last week it was the ref's fault, this week it was the injuries. When you start looking for excuses other than we weren't good enough then the phrase 'clutching at straws' springs to mind.

 

2 weeks in a row we've seen more of the ball than the opposition but we've 1 point from 6 to show for it.

 

The manager signed Stevenson, Ecclestone, Carroll... 3 of the highest earners at the club sitting on the bench whilst the manager goes back predominantly to the players & system which won us the first division.

 

Strange he doesn't back those 3 especially being his players, not McNamara's

 

Surely these players were signed to add extra creativity & enhance the team yet when we're missing ,arguably, our most creative player he doesn't back any of them to step up!

 

The manager picks the players, tactics & makes the subs therefore will be judged on that.

 

Yesterday's marking at the first St Johnstone corner was beyond belief. Leave the 6ft 4 donkey with a free header 6 yards out. Luckily it came to nothing but the same can be said for the majority of our attacks.

 

Then in last minute of the game, their no 18 I think it was is allowed to run across the box to get his head on the ball at near post.

 

Set pieces are diabolical.

 

Then there were the other tactics we were going to employ this season (see pre season comments) but as I said he's still using the tactics we used to win first division.

 

As for our subs, sorry they're rubbish with of without Higgy in the team.

 

Hamilton have stolen a march on us, when you put their XI against our XI from last few weeks, how many would you take & who would you replace?

 

Not many, if any, I'm willing to bet.

 

So then it's not just to do with our creative players being missing?

 

As I said, St Johnstone came with the idea of not losing yesterday, we gave them little to worry about to get exactly that.

 

It's not unreasonable for anyone to suggest that a 36 year old in his first managerial job, who took the reigns of a 2nd placed first division club halfway through a season, which over the previous 6 games had lost 2 drawn 2 and won 2 and previously lost twice against the league leaders, then leads them on an 18 match unbeaten run to the the title, continues that run in his first three matches of the following year and secures safety for the club with a game in hand and without the danger of the play off.... is not solely relying on his remarkable 423 appearance playing career for the club for admiration from some and possible veneration of others.

 

I think Archie turns 37 in december.... Considering Arsene Wenger turned 65 at the weekend and Alex Fergusson retired at 71 I'd say our man's still pretty young for a top flight football club manager. For Archie or any of the other young managers you mentioned to consider themselves experienced would have to objectively viewed as at best naive or boldly conceited.

 

Out of the managers you mention C**to-marra is, as you say, the most experienced at this level, but also argueably has the most prominent playing career, possibly landed his current job because of it and his frienship with Darren Jackson, took our assistant manager with him, our goal keeping coach, physio, and eventually 2 of our players (both signed for us by McCall)... Relevant to the current debate that even at a club with aparrently much larger financial clout than ours he could only muster a victory against us last weekend courtesy of a late penalty yet last season they thrice beat us 4-1 at tannadice? I'd say significantly so.

 

Alex Neil has made an amazing start to his top flight career and deserves credit for it. However, many would agree the Accies success is in part due to their youth set up. Long standing and admired, but also bolstered significantly by netting about £2million from the sale of two proteges about 4 years ago. Thistle Weir was established with a £750,000 grant in october last year.

 

To criticise Archie on his signings, one ought to reflect on the successes too. And one would be hard pushed to argue that, for example, Higginbotham( last year's player of the year as voted for by the fans), McMillan, Gallacher, Seabourne, Osman have all been decent purchases negotiated most likely at a price more favourable than most of the Accies players we might envy would possibly demand for a switch to the Jags.

 

Of course finishing in the bottom 2 matters. Archie avoided that last year, and after the first round of fixtures this year we sit 2 places above last years conclusion. I'd suggest that proposing or even hinting we are on course for a play-off or relegation spot, although agreeably possible and a sobering danger, is the view of a overly pessimistic defeatist.

 

Ref's do make mistakes and we currently have in Higgy, Welsh, and Fraser, 3 players who are prominent contenders for first team starting places injured, to point this out is not at all clutching at straws.

 

No one could argue Archie is perfect and I'm sure he would accept some of your criticism and mine. Personally, I think he could benefit from the addition of a dedicated attacking coach to his staff, not only to aid Doolan, Eccleston but to try and breed a bit more confidence, awareness and understanding amongst and between the whole of the midfield and our front man. However, our current position and performances really ought to be sufficient for our manager to continue to learn about his team and be allowed to choose his methods and practises for how to fine tune it.

 

As fans, we pay our money and are entitled to our opinion. Even without going to the matches or contributing, we care and ought to vent our thoughts and be allowed to question. As our manager, Archie is an employee, takes a wage and therefore has a duty and commitment to give us worth. I suspect the hours and effort he submits exceeds the expectations of his financial reward partly because he would readily agree he's still learning his trade.

 

I'd be more concerned if our gaffer thought he knew everything. Given all the other difficulties and deficiences our club has it's hard to agree that a problem with our manager is imminent or a priority. Perhaps, as fans, we should be asking are we doing enough? Poor attendences, lack of atmosphere, not much cash to sort it. Just as the gaffer might struggle to get decent players to sign to play for us, is it not true that us fans are struggling to encourage others along to support us? When was the last time you convinced someone new to buy a season ticket?

 

Edited October 27, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[madcapmilkdrinker]

Some truly excellent posts here, well played.

[Bleeding Gums Murphy]

 

 

When was the last time you convinced someone new to buy a season ticket?

 

 

My nephew- who ironically wrapped it this season because of £300+ for a ST.

 

I doubt you'd have found their were many 'new' adult ST holders this season at that price.

 

That's going off at a tangent though.

 

Maybe I'm just an old cynic, but I just don't think we're learning from past mistakes on the pitch- goals conceded from crosses, last 10 minutes etc., inability to try something different like playng with a second man up front or even tweaking it from the sidelines to name a couple- that makes me think that we're looking towards the bottom end rather than the top.

 

The manager's comments from Saturday seem to suggest we lacked a cutting edge & players that were missing can provide the 'killer' pass. Correct me if I'm wrong but was that the story against DU? But he went with same XI again with same result- as in lack of cutting edge.

 

Interesting you mention about an attacking coach. I wouldn't disagree ,though I think I'd prefer an 'old head' in the stands for him to call on for advice etc.

 

As for McNamara, it wasn't Darren Jackson., it was Steven Pressley choosing not to walk out on Falkirk without compensation having being agreed/paid that led to him getting the job. Besides, he was already being touted with jobs down South which apparently was always his preferred option.

 

Not doubting he scuttled up to Tannadice as quick as when the call came but don't kid yourself that if DU came calling for Archibald or Paterson the same thing wouldn't happen.

 

 

 

 

[Norgethistle]

 

Maybe I'm just an old cynic, but I just don't think we're learning from past mistakes on the pitch- goals conceded from crosses, last 10 minutes etc., inability to try something different like playng with a second man up front or even tweaking it from the sidelines to name a couple- that makes me think that we're looking towards the bottom end rather than the top.

 

 

I think we are, never lost a goal from a cross ball in our last 3 games, weathered the storm against Motherwell when they brought it back to 2-1 and pushed on for the winner, clean sheet against St-Johnstone and lost to a penalty from a last man challenge against Dundee.

 

This idea of trying something different doesn't wash, we have a plan that does work, a style of football that entertains, and hats off to Archie for sticking to it instead of route 1 football or park the bus.

 

I genuinely believe given time and the rub of the green Archie can be a manager we hark back about in years to come the way we do about Lambie, MacParland and Auld, I think we will see great young players coming through our ranks, getting a chance with Archie and then making a name at far bigger clubs after we have had them for 2 or 3 years. There are 3 in our team just now I doubt will be here in 1 years let alone 2 years time

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

@ Bleeding Gums Murphy

 

It is a bit of a tangent and, in truth a jovial gibe, but you kinda emphasise the point in citing a lapsed season ticket holder while, since Archie took over we've been promoted, survived and are currently sitting higher than we ended last season.

 

Given there's only 12 teams in the league and 2 potentially go down, everybody will have at least one eye on the bottom end before the split or saftey is secured before focussing on higher goals or truely commiting to enertainment. It's the nature of the wounded beast that is Scottish league football. Not our gaffer's fault.

 

With reference to "goals conceded from crosses, last 10 minutes etc." I'd argue it is evident Archie is learning and at least is attempting to address the problem. His stated priority this pre-season was to add to and improve the defense. He has struggled with that but has now signed 3 central defenders (granted Frans is short term but on first impressions a good addition and we may still be his best option in january) Carrol at left back on loan, and Osman and Stveneson to try and add some strength steel and experience. Mixed sucess with them so far but in comparison to the previous pre-season where his only dedicated addition to defensive positions was Gabby and argueably Ozzy and Kerr for grit and and old heads.

 

I share your frustration at our apparent "inability to try something different", though am perhaps more willing to excuse that to some extent with injuries and probably differ on potential differences as I guess we might all do. I have to defend the boss though when he delivers a convincing win against Motherwell without 4 first team regular midfielders and keeps a clean sheet at the weekend with about the 4th different central defensive partnership of the season. However, I would like to see him experiment more without such changes being kinda forced upon him.

 

I reckon changing formations per se 4-5-1, 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 4-3-3... whatever, can cause more confusion than understanding. I do think though, that in sticking to one formation, if you recognise what your players bring to it, utilise their individual talents accordingly you can develop the scope of that formation to vary the play attackingly or defensively. I think this is what Archie is trying to do, however I dun't think he's got the message through to his players and somtimes it appears to me like they are trying to play the position rather than the game, the formation over the opportunity. We need the discipline but also creativity, confidence and lots more movement.

 

I don't think massive changes are required to improve, nor achievable or probably positive on our budget. In short, he ain't got it all wrong, just not enough right yet. I still see the potential. Critical not cynical.

 

I'm under no illusions that other clubs can offer better terms to our boss, and if he fulfills my perceived potential in him he may move on. C**to-marra's win percentage with us in the 1st div was 45%. Archie's was about 70%.... Thank fook he never played for old firm f.c. !!!

Edited October 27, 2014 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[Dark Passenger]

The manager's comments from Saturday seem to suggest we lacked a cutting edge & players that were missing can provide the 'killer' pass. Correct me if I'm wrong but was that the story against DU? But he went with same XI again with same result- as in lack of cutting edge.

 

Perhaps Stevenson should've started.