yoda-jag Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 no matter your view on ttl shop (location, standard, whatever), i think we all have to admire pt's indefatigability in defending it. not just this latest ttl discussion, but any discussion on ttl. you on commission from ttl for every post you make about ttl potty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Not the student thing again. People have been studying at Glasgow Uni since 1876. I'm pretty sure if they could arsed, they'd get along to Firhill. Some do. More often than not they support their own team. See previous discussions re live football on TV. How many times did you take advantage of the Stirling offer R&Y Neck? Cause the last time i looked, my local dentist had a bigger crowd than the Binos. Edited January 12, 2015 by La Scimmia Rossa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 no matter your view on ttl shop (location, standard, whatever), i think we all have to admire pt's indefatigability in defending it. not just this latest ttl discussion, but any discussion on ttl. you on commission from ttl for every post you make about ttl potty? Hmmmm thats a lot longer than I thought it would take for someone to raise this. Not at all, as i've said, there are issues, quite a few infact at TTL. But when folk are trying to have a meaningful conversation and pish like that crops up, regardless of it being me or someone else.... Sombody had to say, hold on a minute! TTL, it's location, the service they offer and products they sell are having no effect on attendance or our ability to market ourselves to the public. They may have an effect on the amount punters spend on merchandise, but thats it. But even that won't have an effect on the amount of money the club makes. Anyone who suggests otherwise is talking nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow & Redneck Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not the student thing again. People have been studying at Glasgow Uni since 1876. I'm pretty sure if they could arsed, they'd get along to Firhill. Some do. More often than not they support their own team. See previous discussions re live football on TV. How many times did you take advantage of the Stirling offer R&Y Neck? Cause the last time i looked, my local dentist had a bigger crowd than the Binos. I took advantage of it each time actually, and as a result I get along to Forthbank any time Thistle aren't playing. Stirling Albion will always be up against it in terms of crowds with poor on the field play, close proximity to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, poor transport links from Stirling city centre, as well as Stirling itself being a comparatively small town. But I appreciate ingenuity and fresh ideas coming to the table, and if it doesn’t succeed, at least they’ve tried. And the point I am making is about advertising at the Unis. It is a huge potential fan base, so to throw it off so frivolously is daft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Where a club shop is or isn't won't add to attendances or detract from them. Match day experience (on and off the park) and cost will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hmmmm thats a lot longer than I thought it would take for someone to raise this. Not at all, as i've said, there are issues, quite a few infact at TTL. But when folk are trying to have a meaningful conversation and pish like that crops up, regardless of it being me or someone else.... Sombody had to say, hold on a minute! TTL, it's location, the service they offer and products they sell are having no effect on attendance or our ability to market ourselves to the public. They may have an effect on the amount punters spend on merchandise, but thats it. But even that won't have an effect on the amount of money the club makes. Anyone who suggests otherwise is talking nonsense. hmmmm was only a light hearted humourtype observation potty, thought the mood needed a wee raising. as you say, there are a number of issues with ttl. the (sad) thing is, it's always (only) you defending anything to do with ttl on this here fora. on your third paragraph, i generally agree ..... but would make the following points, and as i know you are an intelligent individual, would ask you if you disagree with the specifics ..... ttl location, compared to (for example) greaves, does not assist in the potential marketability of ptfc. while we didn't have any city centre / mainstreet type presence prior to greaves, the fact passers by and browsing shoppers would see ptfc products in shop window and on shop floor. unless you are going to ttl specifically (ergo, you're already a hardcore thistle supporter), the footfall of trade, or passing trade, is significantly lower at ttl than that of greaves. a city centre /main street type location like greaves is an aspect of marketability. ttl does not offer that. i'm not saying attendances would go through the roof (they didn't in the greaves years), but surely there is a greater likelihood of (for example) a kiddie or student new to glasgow walking past, or going into greaves, than ttl? and thus possibly taking an interest in ptfc. and by extension, based solely on the footfall numbers, is a means of marketing the club to the general public? so, in that respect, ttl (or its lack of busy street location) has no benefit to our marketability. another way to look at it, is how many other clubs have their (non football match days) shop in an industrial estate? and how many clubs have their (non football match days) shop in a mainstreet/busy shopping location? i personally can think of plenty of the latter, but only thistle for the former. happy to be proved wrong, but specific point is, ttl location does nothing for ptfcs marketability, while a mainstreet type presence would assist. you agree? or disagree? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 What can a club do to attract back the crowds Encourage kids - we do with kids for free Supporters bar / entertainment prior to the game - we have in the Aitken suite Decent product on the park - I think we have Integrate with the fans / core support - for kids with the fan zone we do, for adults could be improved (miss the old twitter updates from the players) Decent food / refreshments in the ground - that has improved from previous seasons Cut the prices - its a fine line between cutting the prices to attract fans and it working and from it cutting the product (3) on the park as a by-product of less income Better advertising / visibility - Yes could be improved, we were far better in the old 1st division Events (Bring a friend / flag day etc) - We had a few of these with ONETHISTLE but not many recently Play all games at 3pm on a Saturday - Outwith our control Play all games in the warmer drier weather - Outwith our control Allow a drink in the game - Outwith our control We are doing a lot of the right things to encourage fans along, what more the club can really do I don't know apart from going on a 10 game winning run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 There was some good feedback on here re the event which took place at the Dundee United match in place of the normal matchday hospitality. Should this be something that the club should continue with at the majority of games? Would they get more from having people turn up for some live entertainment and soup & sandwiches (or some "cheap and cheerful" food) on a regular basis or is the traditional sit down 2 or 3 course meal still the preferred option? Would a mix of both over the course of a season be the best alternative? I don't know the amswer but hopefully the club are looking at what would work best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydebankJag Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Dunfermline offer different levels of hospitality in different bars on the same day. That way they are able to meet different needs and don't miss out on income from any customer group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Would there be any demand for a bar and food to be available post match? I'm not too keen on drink being available during the 90 minutes that the game is going on. Mainly because of the inconvenience of folk shoving past carrying paper or plastic tumblers but if there was a chance to get a pie and a pint after the game I may take it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) ttl location, compared to (for example) greaves, does not assist in the potential marketability of ptfc. while we didn't have any city centre / mainstreet type presence prior to greaves, the fact passers by and browsing shoppers would see ptfc products in shop window and on shop floor. unless you are going to ttl specifically (ergo, you're already a hardcore thistle supporter), the footfall of trade, or passing trade, is significantly lower at ttl than that of greaves. a city centre /main street type location like greaves is an aspect of marketability. ttl does not offer that. i'm not saying attendances would go through the roof (they didn't in the greaves years), but surely there is a greater likelihood of (for example) a kiddie or student new to glasgow walking past, or going into greaves, than ttl? and thus possibly taking an interest in ptfc. and by extension, based solely on the footfall numbers, is a means of marketing the club to the general public? so, in that respect, ttl (or its lack of busy street location) has no benefit to our marketability. another way to look at it, is how many other clubs have their (non football match days) shop in an industrial estate? and how many clubs have their (non football match days) shop in a mainstreet/busy shopping location? i personally can think of plenty of the latter, but only thistle for the former. happy to be proved wrong, but specific point is, ttl location does nothing for ptfcs marketability, while a mainstreet type presence would assist. you agree? or disagree? Whilst I can understand why people might hold this notion that having our products in a city centre sports shop was good for marketing, it's a very general statement to make, marketing what, with what end goal to be targeted? If your target is to get one extra body through the gate, then yes, greaves was in a far greater position. However, there is no way to measure success, so therefore it's very difficult to make a statement regarding greaves being a marketing dream, when there is no evidence to back it up. The club look for the best financial deal for them, what will see them generate the most money, it allows them to balance the books. Right now the only two alternatives are JD sports selling Carbrini/fila kits and Sports Direct selling Puma kits. Imagine we had went with either, the feedback on St Mirrens JD sports deal is that it's shambolic, stock never available, designs on strips and leisure wear aren't even worth buying, you can't buy strips at their ground as JD wouldn't open an outlet in their stadium shop. Would a Thistle fans accept this all for a shop on Argyle Street? The Puma strips are appalling this season, real poor quality template designs. So who's selling puma kits? Not JD I don't think, and if so, the same problem as above. Or sports direct? Really? This line about city centre space being good for marketing, give me anything that backs this up, take a guess, how many fans were added onto the gate by us having a corner of a shop sausageroll Street, 2 floors up. Yes we occasionally got window space, but of the amount of non Thistle fans who saw it, how many reacted and went in, of those, how many bought something, and of those how many attended a game... All because of a tailors dummy. Someone take a punt and give me a figure that suggests that this better marketing was worthwhile. Because if there was very little if not no return... Then surely the greaves shop was on a par with TTL, because both have had very little to no effect on increasing crowd numbers. It's all very well saying it's more marketable being in the city centre, but what's the point when all that improved marketing doesn't actually give you a return, eventually you make a business decision. Edited January 12, 2015 by potty trained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Whilst I can understand why people might hold this notion that having our products in a city centre sports shop was good for marketing, it's a very general statement to make, marketing what, with what end goal to be targeted? If your target is to get one extra body through the gate, then yes, greaves was in a far greater position. However, there is no way to measure success, so therefore it's very difficult to make a statement regarding greaves being a marketing dream, when there is no evidence to back it up. The club look for the best financial deal for them, what will see them generate the most money, it allows them to balance the books. Right now the only two alternatives are JD sports selling Carbrini/fila kits and Sports Direct selling Puma kits. Imagine we had went with either, the feedback on St Mirrens JD sports deal is that it's shambolic, stock never available, designs on strips and leisure wear aren't even worth buying, you can't buy strips at their ground as JD wouldn't open an outlet in their stadium shop. Would a Thistle fans accept this all for a shop on Argyle Street? The Puma strips are appalling this season, real poor quality template designs. So who's selling puma kits? Not JD I don't think, and if so, the same problem as above. Or sports direct? Really? This line about city centre space being good for marketing, give me anything that backs this up, take a guess, how many fans were added onto the gate by us having a corner of a shop sausageroll Street, 2 floors up. Yes we occasionally got window space, but of the amount of non Thistle fans who saw it, how many reacted and went in, of those, how many bought something, and of those how many attended a game... All because of a tailors dummy. Someone take a punt and give me a figure that suggests that this better marketing was worthwhile. Because if there was very little if not no return... Then surely the greaves shop was on a par with TTL, because both have had very little to no effect on increasing crowd numbers. It's all very well saying it's more marketable being in the city centre, but what's the point when all that improved marketing doesn't actually give you a return, eventually you make a business decision. Have you ever considered a career in politics PT? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 How many people have walked past Greaves saw the warriors top in the window and thought "I must go to the rugby on Friday"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 How many people have walked past Greaves saw the warriors top in the window and thought "I must go to the rugby on Friday"? Don't know. How many do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Don't know. How many do you think? Probably about as much that walked past Greaves saw our new top in the window and thought "I must go to Firhill on Saturday" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Probably about as much that walked past Greaves saw our new top in the window and thought "I must go to Firhill on Saturday" Yeah, that sounds about right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Devil's Point Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 When I was going to most of the games in the eighties, the crowds were often only 1500 or so. From that perspective you could ask where have all the fans come from! The average attendances once we got back to the Premier in 90/91 were probably a bit higher than now, but not by much. The 9000 against Morton (and the support at the Challenge Cup Final) were obviously exceptions, and I suspect there were plenty of neutrals at the Morton game, as well as occasional Jags. Price is the issue. Its like fuel, there is a level the price gets to where you start really noticing it. I used to think nothing of running up and down to Glencoe for hillwalking most weekends, but now its thirty quid in the tank, and it makes you give it a miss sometimes, particularly if the weather is poor and there is no one around to divy the petrol up with........ If I wanted to go to St Johnstone on Saturday I'd be looking at forty quid just for travel (even using a supporters bus) and to get in to the game. For a lot of us that is too much, and also assumes there will be no eating, drinking, or general enjoyment beyond what the Jags might produce (could be worth it sometimes, granted). I used to love going away but after spending something like a hundred and fifty quid going to Ross last season (a bit of a party to be fair ) I've pretty much packed it in. Will still go if it really matters, like Tynecastle last season, but otherwise I'd rather sit in the warm and listen to the radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 There has been a lot of discussion about what has happened over the years. My question was specifically about compared to last season. Economic conditions haven't changed particularly, although fuel is considerably cheaper. Pay at the gate has increased by £2. From many posts already made, it seems that most people also like to go for a drink/ something to eat as well. In that regard, I think that the price of a pint in the Aitken suite is also cheaper than last season. So I am kind of moving away from cost being the factor in this season's decline. So, maybe a bigger influence is the absence of Hearts and Hibs and the perception that there are less attractive games ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Price is the issue. Its like fuel, there is a level the price gets to where you start really noticing it. Nail on head. The season on season price increases for the past two years have been £17 to £20 to £22. That's just shy of a 30% increase. Most people will have been lucky to see a 5% increase in their salary over the same period. There comes a time when people re-evaluate where going to the football lies in their priorities, in terms of how much they are prepared to pay for the experience. A psychological tipping point was probably reached at £20 where some have decided that they cannot justify that amount from a disposable income pot that has been steadily receding due to the prevailing economic conditions and associated pay restraint. The football industry in the UK badly needs to refocus on the paying spectator rather than the TV money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Nail on head. The season on season price increases for the past two years have been £17 to £20 to £22. That's just shy of a 30% increase. Most people will have been lucky to see a 5% increase in their salary over the same period. There comes a time when people re-evaluate where going to the football lies in their priorities, in terms of how much they are prepared to pay for the experience. A psychological tipping point was probably reached at £20 where some have decided that they cannot justify that amount from a disposable income pot that has been steadily receding due to the prevailing economic conditions and associated pay restraint. The football industry in the UK badly needs to refocus on the paying spectator rather than the TV money. Not disagreeing but the crux of the matter is whether the gate price increases have been implemented to offset shortfall in projected turnover in the previous season. I wouldn't know the answer to that but I don't feel it's a case of the Club/Board/Beattie trying to squeeze us for our last pennies or for that matter making a major error in the pricing structure. Others I know will disagree. People are forever going on about football being a business, which altho' being obviously correct at the same time it's significantly different from most businesses. The competitive aspect of normal commerce is all but not there. If we were to half our gate prices St Mirren and Motherwell fans wouldn't give up supporting their clubs and flock to Firhill the way folk who shop in Tesco would desert in masses if Asda was considerably cheaper. And there lies a problem, which inevitably means our Club going along broadly with the pricing of our competitors. Until something is done at a national/SFA level I can't see any club on its own risking anything more than marginal decrease of gate pricing. The only issues we should be addressing is why our fans have dropped off this season in a greater proportion (I'm assuming this to be the case) to that of our competitors and what can be done to redress the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinolasBald Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 This line about city centre space being good for marketing, give me anything that backs this up, take a guess, how many fans were added onto the gate by us having a corner of a shop sausageroll Street, 2 floors up. Yes we occasionally got window space, but of the amount of non Thistle fans who saw it, how many reacted and went in, of those, how many bought something, and of those how many attended a game... All because of a tailors dummy. Someone take a punt and give me a figure that suggests that this better marketing was worthwhile. Because if there was very little if not no return... Then surely the greaves shop was on a par with TTL, because both have had very little to no effect on increasing crowd numbers. Agree with you PT. I don't think anyone has walked into a Greaves shop whether they've been able to see a Thistle top in the window or in the football section and thought "oh I'm going to go to the Thistle game at the weekend if they're playing at home". The only time I've ever heard of something remotely like that happening is someone I know buying the garish pink camo top from a few years back when they were reduced to a fiver. The location of TTL isn't ideal, but most existing fans who buy the strips and leisurewear will do so regardless of where they are being sold. I don't think the club will have lost any money in sales of this kind of product because of the move from Greaves to TTL. To have them being sold in Greaves is handy, but the people who will be buying the products will buy them regardless of where they are being sold. TTL have an online presence and so I would say its handier for someone to order the stuff online and have it delivered to their door. Plus, I'm sure that I ordered my top last season to be collected at the store so its not as if you have to traipse all the way out to Port Dundas to find they don't have your size, without checking online first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Whilst I can understand why people might hold this notion that having our products in a city centre sports shop was good for marketing, it's a very general statement to make, marketing what, with what end goal to be targeted? If your target is to get one extra body through the gate, then yes, greaves was in a far greater position. However, there is no way to measure success, so therefore it's very difficult to make a statement regarding greaves being a marketing dream, when there is no evidence to back it up. The club look for the best financial deal for them, what will see them generate the most money, it allows them to balance the books. Right now the only two alternatives are JD sports selling Carbrini/fila kits and Sports Direct selling Puma kits. Imagine we had went with either, the feedback on St Mirrens JD sports deal is that it's shambolic, stock never available, designs on strips and leisure wear aren't even worth buying, you can't buy strips at their ground as JD wouldn't open an outlet in their stadium shop. Would a Thistle fans accept this all for a shop on Argyle Street? The Puma strips are appalling this season, real poor quality template designs. So who's selling puma kits? Not JD I don't think, and if so, the same problem as above. Or sports direct? Really? This line about city centre space being good for marketing, give me anything that backs this up, take a guess, how many fans were added onto the gate by us having a corner of a shop sausageroll Street, 2 floors up. Yes we occasionally got window space, but of the amount of non Thistle fans who saw it, how many reacted and went in, of those, how many bought something, and of those how many attended a game... All because of a tailors dummy. Someone take a punt and give me a figure that suggests that this better marketing was worthwhile. Because if there was very little if not no return... Then surely the greaves shop was on a par with TTL, because both have had very little to no effect on increasing crowd numbers. It's all very well saying it's more marketable being in the city centre, but what's the point when all that improved marketing doesn't actually give you a return, eventually you make a business decision. thanks for response pt. i was taking advantage of a lull at work yesterday, playing devils advocate as felt others observations and opinions viewpoint on ttl location wasn't being understood or being ridiculed to an extent. at no point did i say or infer greaves was or is a marketing dream. i was only trying to highlight it has a greater public profile and presence than ttl, due to its location and footfall, and thus by extension gives a degree of publicity and marketing greater than ttl. as your post (as well as mine and others) also highlights, it is a complex issue, with no single or simple solution, and unlike some other discussions, hasn't descended into idiocy levels (likely because the usual idiots haven't contributed). good thread. and thanks for the laugh ..... sausageroll street :lol: ..... obviously a predictivetext error (comes out as switcheroo on mine!?), but raised another much needed chuckle. and on a more general point made by some others, i agree, the breaking the £20 barrier (especially when taking other costs of attending a game ..... travel, food, drink, prog, 5050 tickets and so on), combined with us (for many fans) not being as successful/winning as much as a couple of seasons ago, is the straw that has broken the (regular) back(ing) for many. it's "only" £2 more, but it's a very psychological factor. again, complex issue, as we don't know the ins and outs and complexities of the clubs budget and wage structures demands, that may have dictated such an increase. and again, it's an issue that is not exclusive to ptfc, and requires across the clubs action and agreement on pricing structures, reciprocal agreements and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinKelvin Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The Greaves/TTL debate is a red herring to some extent here. I know I only mentioned it a couple of pages back as an example of the fact that the club's profile in Glasgow (both city centre and in the west end, which is an area I really think should be targetted with marketing for students/other new fans) is pretty much zero. There's simply no trace of us in Glasgow city centre or the west end, even though, of course, we're Glasgow's oldest football club. The problem with having zero visibility is that it means that you're relying entirely on your existing fanbase and not growing it or getting first-timers along who may become permanent fans. No one on here has been claiming that Greaves brought us in hundreds of new fans every season - but having a presence - any presence - is one small aspect of being known in the city in which we play. That is intangible but, I would argue, still important. My main point, which I know has been made many times before, was that we should be marketing to students across Glasgow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 ^^^^^ An error occurred You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Nail on head. The season on season price increases for the past two years have been £17 to £20 to £22. That's just shy of a 30% increase. Most people will have been lucky to see a 5% increase in their salary over the same period. There comes a time when people re-evaluate where going to the football lies in their priorities, in terms of how much they are prepared to pay for the experience. A psychological tipping point was probably reached at £20 where some have decided that they cannot justify that amount from a disposable income pot that has been steadily receding due to the prevailing economic conditions and associated pay restraint. The football industry in the UK badly needs to refocus on the paying spectator rather than the TV money. Fans want a winning team on the park, that team costs cash and even more so in the top league. Players in the top league will be paid at least 50% more than the 1st, so that needs paying. Pay 1st division prices have a 1st division team, unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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