Player Fund

[Jaggernaut]

Can we be clear about this please - if you can't afford to contribute or just don't want do that is fine. Nobody is being forced to do so and that was made perfectly clear at the meeting last night. Again at the meeting last evening it was made clear that the club are looking to do all they can to maximise other income streams and I got the impression that anything raised through this is a bonus. I do get slightly annoyed by people implying that the directors are simply here to watch games in the comfy seats and they get a whole lot of benefits by being directors of PTFC. If being a director of this club is so great for people why don't we have a line of people the length of Maryhill Road wanting to get in to the Firhill Boardroom?

 

Maybe because not everybody who is genuinely interested in PTFC can afford to pay 50 grand a year for the privilege of being a director?

 

That sum was being bandied around several years ago. Things may have changed. If it is accurate, then those who suggest that the directors are merely in it for themselves are clearly talking nonsense.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Jaggernaut

[potty trained]

 

 

Maybe because not everybody who is genuinely interested in PTFC can afford to pay 50 grand a year for the privilege of being a director?

 

That sum was being bandied around several years ago. Things may have changed. If it is accurate, then those who suggest that the directors are merely in it for themselves are clearly talking nonsense.

 

It was £5000 I think.

 

The cynics would say, a previous attempt by a board of Partick Thistle to neuter the Jags Trust, by forcing them to fund their fan rep place on the board.

[ClydebankJag]

Yeah it was £5,000 and it could be made through sponsorship and hospitality i.e. stuff that was tax deductible via your company accounts if you were self employed. The personal outlay required by each director was zero. And it was clearly introduced to put the Trust, without a company behind it, at a disadvantage.

[potty trained]

Who said they won't be part of this trust? The issue about a supporter being someone with 3 years of season tickets was touched upon but in reality they want to involve everyone - the Jags Trust can't get enough people to form a quorum at their AGM!. Also the fact you have to put a ? beside what you think the Jags Trust membership is and the fact that I, a former member of the Jags Trust Board, could not say if that figure is anywhere near accurate says a lot. The shares are not worthless either - with the Jags Trust and the new trust there is approximately 25% of the shares that are owned by the supporters (this figure was discussed at the meeting last evening).

 

As I have stated in another thread we really need to move on in my humble (yet accurate)^* opinion from all the politics and grievances of so many years. I have nailed my colours to the mast and I don't intend to let the past dictate what the future is going to be for our club. Other people need to make their own decision on that but the sense I got last night from those who attended was that they want to move forward as well.

 

^* That was a lit bit of humour for the avoidance of doubt.

 

I asked a direct question, but you seem to have dodged round it. Do you think how the club have treated the members of the trust is a good way to generate income streams?

 

To take your points, which have no relation to my original post:

 

It has been posted on this forum that the Jags Trust have been blocked from being part of the Club Trust. A post was put up from Morag.

 

I find it ridiculous that you have a cheap dig at the Trust for not raising a quorum at their AGM, yet want us to blissfully follow a new Trust that can't muster 1% of Season Ticket holders at it's Launch night!

 

The reason i put a question mark beside the number is because i am estimating based on historical numbers. I too served on the board, the membership was pushing 750. I think it says more about you, that you can't say if this figure is close to accurate, when you served as an elected member of the Trust. Do you not know how many members you served?

 

Can you give a breakdown of fan representation via shares. The Jags Trust before the Weir involvement held 10% shareholding I think. This figure has since been diluted. All shareholders have seen their shres diluted. But the club had not communicated with it's shareholders to tell them what their shareholding now represents.

 

It's very well saying the fans own 25% of shares, but what influence does that have, when the Club Trust board is a mix of fans and club directors. Its a red herring to say the fans 25% holds complete influence.

 

With the Club Trust meeting once every 4 months, how will they gauage the opinions of their members, on what mandate will the Reps be elected?

 

It's great that you got the feeling from those who attended that they want to move on and forget about the past. 15 folk's a good base to start from, with a home gate of 2400.

[Willjag]

Hmm. I'm sure that figure used to be around the £6500 mark at one point and was reduced to £5k (this was in the days of the previous BoD). Regardless, the Director's fee was always around. I wasn't aware that they had asked the Jags Trust to make this payment also or if I was I've forgotten about it.

 

Anybody any idea how much Directors take out of the Club on an annual basis?

[potty trained]

Hmm. I'm sure that figure used to be around the £6500 mark at one point and was reduced to £5k (this was in the days of the previous BoD). Regardless, the Director's fee was always around. I wasn't aware that they had asked the Jags Trust to make this payment also or if I was I've forgotten about it.

 

Anybody any idea how much Directors take out of the Club on an annual basis?

 

Since Eddie Prentice? I doubt any take a wage.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

The Jags Trust have not been blocked being members of the new club trust. It's individual members. Why go through another level when you can get involved directly? If I'm booking a taxi I use Uber, if I want accommodation I use AirBnB. Cut out the middle tier.

[potty trained]

The Jags Trust have not been blocked being members of the new club trust. It's individual members. Why go through another level when you can get involved directly? If I'm booking a taxi I use Uber, if I want accommodation I use AirBnB. Cut out the middle tier.

 

 

 

Regarding “PTFC – Trust”

 

The Club General Manager in mid-November 2015 (as I left Brown McMaster’s memorial service) told me that there would be a press release the following day and that it would reflect that the Club would be setting up their own “Football Club Trust”.

 

He stated that the Bank of Scotland would not agree to there being a role for the Partick Thistle Supporters Association, trading as The Jags Trust in the new organisation.

 

No reason was given for this strange decision by the institution which was also the Jags Trust’s banker.

 

Morag McHaffie,

Chairperson,

Partick Thistle Supporters Association, trading as “The Jags Trust”.

 

 

 

Whats it got to do with the bank if the Jags Trust have a role to play in the Club Trust or not?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

We are lucky to have the board of directors we have at this moment. The club is going through a success spell. I wouldn't do it. Some people treat the board with suspicion as if they are some kind of dodgy politicians.

 

In fairness to the "some people" the Board have in the past shared an obvious trait with "dodgy politicians".

I'm tho' in agreement with your sentiments if for no other reason than we've got to move forward. if that means wiping the slate clean yet again, so be it. The leap of faith this time is Foster and Pauline carry out what they said they intend to do. I like others the other night was impressed by both of them.

As for the Player Fund I repeat it's far from unique for fans to donate money to a football club. I'd suggest that when that club is not undergoing financial difficulties a large proportion of donors would want to see their contributions reflected on the field of play. Where the cynicism arises is if the support think of this fund as a cap in hand initiative. Maxie told us it was fan driven, supporters going to the Club to offer financial input with the only proviso any input was used to strengthen the squad. I'm prepared to believe him (in the great scheme of things hardly another leap of faith) and I sure as hell hope it's successful.

[Norgethistle]

 

 

In fairness to the "some people" the Board have in the past shared an obvious trait with "dodgy politicians".

I'm tho' in agreement with your sentiments if for no other reason than we've got to move forward. if that means wiping the slate clean yet again, so be it. The leap of faith this time is Foster and Pauline carry out what they said they intend to do. I like others the other night was impressed by both of them.

As for the Player Fund I repeat it's far from unique for fans to donate money to a football club. I'd suggest that when that club is not undergoing financial difficulties a large proportion of donors would want to see their contributions reflected on the field of play. Where the cynicism arises is if the support think of this fund as a cap in hand initiative. Maxie told us it was fan driven, supporters going to the Club to offer financial input with the only proviso any input was used to strengthen the squad. I'm prepared to believe him (in the great scheme of things hardly another leap of faith) and I sure as hell hope it's successful.

 

In fairness the club have taken the easiest option again, ask for cash with no service/reward in return.

Offer a service fans are willing to pay for and it could far exceed any players fund, plus engage the fans with the club, but that takes effort and work.

In the last several years we've had RealScottishFootball started and disappear, Supporters Federation start and disappear, OneThistle start fantastically then be stopped by the club, then TAG which after the initial hype stagnated for over a year before spluttering along.

 

All of these initiatives could have made significant cash for the club and generate greater levels of fan engagement but were messed up or dropped

[jaf]

I think one can say that this board have done a largely good job whilst also criticising some of the specifics of this initiative which is certainly the approach I was taking. For some however, they cannot distinguish between the two. It's all or nothing. And some will never give the board credit for anything I am sure too. I am certainly in the middle ground of seeing what a good job they have done but not being overly impressed with this initiative for pretty much all the reasons already given in this thread.

[Norgethistle]

I think one can say that this board have done a largely good job whilst also criticising some of the specifics of this initiative which is certainly the approach I was taking. For some however, they cannot distinguish between the two. It's all or nothing. And some will never give the board credit for anything I am sure too. I am certainly in the middle ground of seeing what a good job they have done but not being overly impressed with this initiative for pretty much all the reasons already given in this thread.

 

I think the board have done a lot of good, as have the Weirs, I think though we're missing a trick with potential revenue streams, that not only bring cash in but can connect the fans with the club

[Lambies Lost Doo]

If people think they're is a way of raising revenue then please raise them here with some details, research and estimates. I'm sure if you contacted the club they would also be interested. I do think we are guilty as fans of not recognising the constraints of being a small club with small fanbase.

[potty trained]

I think one can say that this board have done a largely good job whilst also criticising some of the specifics of this initiative which is certainly the approach I was taking. For some however, they cannot distinguish between the two. It's all or nothing. And some will never give the board credit for anything I am sure too. I am certainly in the middle ground of seeing what a good job they have done but not being overly impressed with this initiative for pretty much all the reasons already given in this thread.

 

Yup, they do deserve credit. And rightfully receive it.

 

However, they are not perfect and should be open to critisism.

 

As a contrast, there are some who believe they can do no wrong and should never be questioned.

[Norgethistle]

If people think they're is a way of raising revenue then please raise them here with some details, research and estimates. I'm sure if you contacted the club they would also be interested. I do think we are guilty as fans of not recognising the constraints of being a small club with small fanbase.

 

It was raised at the 1st supporters federation meeting regarding a Nomad season ticket with live stream and PDF program for all home games, that would sell for us Nomadic fans, was promised to be looked at, but as of yet nothing, but maybe that's the next thing to be launched.

 

If you could have 100 Nomads paying £150 for every home game live video streaming, and charge foreign supporters of the away team on a pay-per-view deal that could pull in more than £20k a season, if done right

[jlsarmy]

Got to be honest , I'm not really sure what Trusts at football clubs actually achieve , from the Board's perspective is it just to send a token message out there that we really want to involve some of the supporters within the club but ultimately the supporters within a Football Club have no real influence about the major decisions .

When the club pick who they want to front the new Trust rather than by democratic means I start to get a bit worried .

Wasn't privy to what went on at the meeting but did Maxie elaborate how the player fund would work, IMO the best way to give Archie funds is to maximise what we already have Lottery , utilise the stadium better for concerts , functions etc, we've now got a media and communications person in Jacqui Low but she seems to be going down the low profile route as nobody seems to have heard anything from her .

I'm probably in the cynical "PT " camp

 

[eljaggo]

If the club simply ask for donations to a player fund and give nothing in return, the amount raised would almost certainly be smaller than if they offered shares in return, and probably too small in any case to make a significant impact given the small fan base. This is especially true given the likelihood that the money raised would used to pay wages and therefore require a continuing commitment from fans.

The problems with offering shares are that: First, it dilutes the value of existing shares which would not be popular with the BOD. Second, if the fan shareholding rose to 26% or more, the fans would have a veto over some board decisions. That veto assumes that the fans speak with one voice on critical decisions, which is possibly why there are issues between the BOD and the Jags Trust.

All a bit tricky.

Edited May 20, 2016 by eljaggo

[topcat]

It would have all been moot had I won the Euromillions the night. Sorry Archie.

[Shuggie]

There is a world of difference between aspiring to greater revenues via fan participation and aspiring to greater fan participation that will bring increased revenue.

 

Satisfy (sorry delight) your customer base and you won't have to worry about revenue.

[Fawlty Towers]

Apologies if you have taken offence at my reply to your first post or you think I am having a cheap dig as that certainly was not my intention and those that know me would, I hope, say that is not my style.

 

I asked a direct question, but you seem to have dodged round it. Do you think how the club have treated the members of the trust is a good way to generate income streams?

 

I don't think that it has made any difference to be honest. I am a member of the Jags Trust and how the Board & Trust interact (or don't) has no influence on whether I support initiatives which raise funds for the club. I would also add that the Jags Trust can't be hugely bothered either as they still give money to the club in terms of sponsoring the manager's page in the programme, player sponsorship and the Firhill Cup. If they thought that they were being treated so badly surely they would not continue with that in the same way that we have seen dedicated public sector workers withdraw their labour when they feel they are being treated badly?

 

To take your points, which have no relation to my original post:

 

It has been posted on this forum that the Jags Trust have been blocked from being part of the Club Trust. A post was put up from Morag.

 

The Jags Trust is a collection of individuals and it was stated at the meeting on Wednesday that they are perfectly welcome in this new Trust. The post that Morag made was brought up by Ian Maxwell and he stated that this was inaccurate.

 

I find it ridiculous that you have a cheap dig at the Trust for not raising a quorum at their AGM, yet want us to blissfully follow a new Trust that can't muster 1% of Season Ticket holders at it's Launch night!

 

As I stated above I was not intending that to be a cheap dig it was simply a statement of fact. The point I was trying to make (obviously not well) was that people are saying the club are doing something that is designed to alienate a sizeable percentage of our fanbase but I don't believe that the Jags Trust membership is either as large as is being suggested or as active as it could be.

 

The reason i put a question mark beside the number is because i am estimating based on historical numbers. I too served on the board, the membership was pushing 750. I think it says more about you, that you can't say if this figure is close to accurate, when you served as an elected member of the Trust. Do you not know how many members you served?

 

I have not served on the Jags Trust Board for several years so the only way I would know the membership level now is by being told by the existing Board and this has not been the case. When I was on the Board I knew the figure as one of the first points on the agenda of our monthly meetings was an update from the membership secretary.

 

Can you give a breakdown of fan representation via shares. The Jags Trust before the Weir involvement held 10% shareholding I think. This figure has since been diluted. All shareholders have seen their shres diluted. But the club had not communicated with it's shareholders to tell them what their shareholding now represents.

 

It's very well saying the fans own 25% of shares, but what influence does that have, when the Club Trust board is a mix of fans and club directors. Its a red herring to say the fans 25% holds complete influence.

 

I will hold my hands up on this one and say that when it comes to issues of shares and all the implications around these I am absolutely not as expert. It was raised however at the meeting by someone not on the Trust Board but who was heavily involved with the Trust in the past that having this percentage of shares with the fans was a good thing.

 

With the Club Trust meeting once every 4 months, how will they gauage the opinions of their members, on what mandate will the Reps be elected?

 

The issue of communication was discussed at length and making sure that every available channel is used was seen as key. Also having an annual survey so progress can be measured was put forward. When the elections come around by that time those on the Board will have a track record to stand on (assuming they wish to continue) and those who wish to join will, I assume, have to put forward a statement so people will know what they intend to do.

 

It's great that you got the feeling from those who attended that they want to move on and forget about the past. 15 folk's a good base to start from, with a home gate of 2400.

 

Hopefully when the next meering is held there will be a bigger turnout and people will get the same sense as I did but if they don't then that is fine - it is still a democracy (as long as Queen Nicola tells us it is)^*

 

^*Another attempt at humour!

 

 

 

 

[Vaila Street]

^^

'*Another attempt at humour'

 

If it's run by folk as 'funny' as you I'll pass thanks.

[Fawlty Towers]

On a practical note for those that intend to join up if you do it through the online option it is very simple and only takes a moment but you can't specify the date of the first payment - it gets set up for as soon as it can be taken so bear that in mind if you need the payment taken at a certain time of the month.

 

http://ptfc.co.uk/news/2015-2016/may_2016/partick_thistle_player_fund

[javeajag]

Have Dunfermline not got a similar scheme and 2000 have signed up for £20 a month giving them £500,000 ?

[javeajag]

Direct debit set up

[digger]

DITTO.