B C Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 So it's now 4 years since ThistleWeir, over a million pounds ploughed in. On Saturday we had 8 players missing due to injury and/or one or two being 'unavailable' (rumours of a story there). Kilmarnock had two teenagers in their starting line up. Similarly Motherwell, Dundee and Accies all play teenagers. We couldn't even fill out bench and seemingly our 'young' bright hope Andy McCarthy who is nearly 19 wasn't thought highly enough of to come on until the game was over. We appear to have the worst record in terms of the amount of under 21 players fielded from all 12 teams in the SPL. How long til ThistleWeir provides something. 4 years and a million quid. We continually hear of how brilliant a our youth teams have been doing over the last 4 years yet it seems there is no breakthrough. The Weirs must be wondering where the money is going you've got to think, the model at the moment is not sustainable. Questions must be asked as to why we have no players coming through when other teams at our level seem to have no issue blooding youth without a ThistleWeir backing them up. The new training ground whilst promising is perhaps papering over the cracks of the failure to deliver players to the first team squad. Also the loaning out of our best players seems to do little, 3 of our youth players loaned out last season freed, Penrice and McLaughlin out on loan just now seems almost pointless and Nisbet is a certainty to go soon. Maybe this post will seem premature by next year if we have a couple youth players as first team regulars but you've really got to doubt that will happen based on the start to this season and the early signs. I ll finish by saying that yes we probably have the best group of players on aper since Lambies team in the 90's but long term it's a worry especially with a larger wage bill and static crowds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Is it only Penrice and McLaughlin out on loan ? Does Lindsay count as a Weir graduate ? What about Jack Hendry ? The Weirs seem to be pretty cautious people. If they weren't happy I am sure they wouldn't have committed to the training ground or continue with the Academy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Lindsay doesn't count as ThistleWeir no he was 18-19 when it even started and already had made first team debut and Jack Hendry was a Thistle player for a year coming from Dundee United youth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The optimist Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 What’s the rumours about the unavailable players?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 So it's now 4 years since ThistleWeir, over a million pounds ploughed in. On Saturday we had 8 players missing due to injury and/or one or two being 'unavailable' (rumours of a story there). Kilmarnock had two teenagers in their starting line up. Similarly Motherwell, Dundee and Accies all play teenagers. We couldn't even fill out bench and seemingly our 'young' bright hope Andy McCarthy who is nearly 19 wasn't thought highly enough of to come on until the game was over. We appear to have the worst record in terms of the amount of under 21 players fielded from all 12 teams in the SPL. How long til ThistleWeir provides something. 4 years and a million quid. We continually hear of how brilliant a our youth teams have been doing over the last 4 years yet it seems there is no breakthrough. The Weirs must be wondering where the money is going you've got to think, the model at the moment is not sustainable. Questions must be asked as to why we have no players coming through when other teams at our level seem to have no issue blooding youth without a ThistleWeir backing them up. The new training ground whilst promising is perhaps papering over the cracks of the failure to deliver players to the first team squad. Also the loaning out of our best players seems to do little, 3 of our youth players loaned out last season freed, Penrice and McLaughlin out on loan just now seems almost pointless and Nisbet is a certainty to go soon. Maybe this post will seem premature by next year if we have a couple youth players as first team regulars but you've really got to doubt that will happen based on the start to this season and the early signs. I ll finish by saying that yes we probably have the best group of players on aper since Lambies team in the 90's but long term it's a worry especially with a larger wage bill and static crowds. Are you Lambie in disguise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Despite playing a youngish squad for an U20s side and, unlike other clubs, rarely playing more than one overage player (usually Nisbet), we're joint 2nd in the league. No Penrice or McCarthy in the side either. Penrice appears to be doing very well at Livingston. McLaughlin, who's at Stirling will be learning from Peter McDonald and getting some game time there as is Lamont at Clyde. I don't know if McLaughlin ended as top scorer in the U20s last season but he must have been close and I doubt anyone has scored more goals this season. I'm encouraged with the throughput so far. Also Fitzpatrick got a national call up as I thought did Kelly earlier. Granger looks a composed centreback and the trialist U17 goalie (who played for the U20s recently) looks useful with excellent distribution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 None of the players you've mentioned are likely to feature for us this season though, it's all a bit average really. The reason perhaps the youth team are second is maybe because the rest of the clubs have their youth players already playing for their clubs. Results at youth level tend not to be a true picture. It's the fruits of the labour in the first team that show you, therefore at the moment ThistleWeir is yet to prove any level of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 4 years is not a long time for an academy, I’m sure I read it took Ajax nearly a decade before a steady stream of players started to come through 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 10 years x 250k is 2.5 million. To sell one or 2 for a couple hundred grand? Aye that's worth it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 We don’t need to sell players to make it pay, we only need them to be 1st team class to stop us having to buy others 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerrybritton9 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I have no idea how to judge this except to say that we’re holding our own in terms of the conveyor belt. How about all the players dropping off the production line at Murray park after having millions spent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The reason perhaps the youth team are second is maybe because the rest of the clubs have their youth players already playing for their clubs. Well if that was the case why would they be playing overage players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 https://ptfc.co.uk/club/football-club-trust-2/about-the-academy/ What you have to remember is that we were basically starting from scratch as Gerry Britton will tell you that we were only playing at youth development before the Weirs investment. If slightly older players who did have a short spell in that structure don't count then we still have a couple of years to wait before we can point to a young player in the first team who has come all the way through the system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Good topic, with good questions being asked by the original poster. I seem to remember the team's youthfulness being highlighted not so long ago, around when we won promotion. Now, instead of young and eager players with plenty flair, we seem to have a team of older journeymen, short on passion, fitness, and flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightswood Jag Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Good topic, with good questions being asked by the original poster. I seem to remember the team's youthfulness being highlighted not so long ago, around when we won promotion. Now, instead of young and eager players with plenty flair, we seem to have a team of older journeymen, short on passion, fitness, and flair. We actually have one of the youngest squads in Britain Edited October 17, 2017 by Knightswood Jag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 We started each our league cup group games with 5 Thistle Weir players in the squad. Nisbet made an appearance in each one. Started in perth in the next round, was key in setting up 2 of 3 goals, and is now a fairly regular first team sub. Penrice played two full games. His loan to Livingston is a step up from East fife last year where he made 14 starts at left back and he now seams to be forcing his way to first team regular in midfield. McCarthy is certainly breaking through. On the bench for (all?) games this season. Having made 3 starts last season, having (just?) turned 18, he must now be approaching double figures for first team appearances. Neil Mclaughlin and Mark Lammont have both been farmed out to the fourth tier. The Thistle Weir production line is in motion. Despite going through the group unbeaten, beating St. Johnstone convincingly in the next round and eventually being put out in ET by rangers, there was a fair amount of concern expressed on here about how we played ( "honkin" ) and how our squad was looking ( "threadbare" ) early on in the season. We have to remember where we've come from. I might be wrong here, but I think it was Ian McCall who first drew attention to how neglected our youth policy was, how short sighted we had become as a football club and attempted to do something about it by at least starting up and running 2 or 3 proper youth teams playing regularly. While other clubs might not have a comparable "thistleweir" set up, I wonder and doubt if they have let things slip as far as we had not so long ago. When the phrase "starting from nothing" is being used in defence of ThistleWeir, while not only more or less accurate, I think it fair to say the the ultimate vision for the project is for it to be a step up from what may have been an acceptable youth program in years gone by. More than simply running teams or having close links to dedicated boys clubs, but to provide a professional and comprehensive program of physical, tactical and skills training with a pre-planned structure of progression. Not simply working with who turns up but attracting those who we'd like to work with, bringing in the standard of youth players to meet the level we want them to compete at as well as developing those who have been with us since boys. The training facility is essential. Regardless of our former financial woes, It is a disgrace that we like too many in "Pro" football clubs in Scotland have operated for over a century with no dedicated training filed or footballing hub to work on their game, away from where they present the show. While the Weirs cash is fortunate and much appreciated gift, I suggest it has been far from squandered by those who have taken up the challenge set down by the initial cash injection. Gerry Britton has left a career in the law to dedicate himself to the dream. He and others around him have ticked all the boxes to suggest they are worth further backing. They have made the grade in terms of having Thistle weir recognised as fit to to compete at the highest level available in Scotland. While financial returns are yet to fully bud and the business model may need more work and attention, most "start ups" involve a large degree of risk and take time over and above effort and organisation to establish themselves as reliable, regular sources of steady income. The project has earned respect and it's management credibly deserve further investment. The two significant grants from the Weirs suggest they might share my optimism and confidence. I agree that this year is once more crucial to the project's progression. Success breeds success no matter how small, and we are in a fortunate position that survival in the top flight means we have an opportunity, thanks to the Weirs, to capitalise on that perhaps more than others. Though not certain yet, another top flight season and bricks going up at the training ground and I would be, I'm reasonably confident that it is not ultimately crucial to the survival of the youth program. I think we are committed, credibly organised and will deliver a decent "academy" that will start to build a well regarded reputation across, not just Scotland, but the whole UK and potentially peak the interest of some on the continent with what we can produce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The above post I can take some points however.... Kevin Nisbet is 21 in a few months, likely will be freed. Mark Lamont will be 20, unlikely to break through based on evidence so far. Andy McCarthy is actually 19 is a few days, Penrice in a few weeks. As my post said McCarthy was used when we were beat on Saturday with 8 players missing. KJ's post about average age is pointless really, the age of our squad has nothing to do with our youth players more a policy that Archie has when signing players. If you look at the stats for Under 21 players in starting line ups I believe we are at the bottom in SPL terms. The point about starting from nothing I accept partly but remember Liam Lindsay came from this nothing and there were a couple of others who threatened to breakthrough but didn't get the chance or weren't good enough. Time will tell, but how many more years til we either have players good enough for the first team, or actually play them? It seems that Under 14-15s from the start of ThistleWeir upwards at the moment have failed overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightswood Jag Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) The above post I can take some points however.... Kevin Nisbet is 21 in a few months, likely will be freed. Mark Lamont will be 20, unlikely to break through based on evidence so far. Andy McCarthy is actually 19 is a few days, Penrice in a few weeks. As my post said McCarthy was used when we were beat on Saturday with 8 players missing. KJ's post about average age is pointless really, the age of our squad has nothing to do with our youth players more a policy that Archie has when signing players. If you look at the stats for Under 21 players in starting line ups I believe we are at the bottom in SPL terms. The point about starting from nothing I accept partly but remember Liam Lindsay came from this nothing and there were a couple of others who threatened to breakthrough but didn't get the chance or weren't good enough. Time will tell, but how many more years til we either have players good enough for the first team, or actually play them? It seems that Under 14-15s from the start of ThistleWeir upwards at the moment have failed overall. I was referencing the first team. It's just that Jaggernaut said the first team had become 'a team of older journeymen' when we in fact have one of the youngest teams in Britain. Just to clear up any confusion Edited October 17, 2017 by Knightswood Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 We actually have one of the youngest squads in Britain Kilmarnock, Motherwell & Dundee all have squads younger than ours, 2 of them have pumped us this year 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Time will tell, but how many more years til we either have players good enough for the first team, or actually play them? I'd have thought 6 years (ie another 2 years) would be a fair time to take stock. I expect tho' McCarthy, Penrice and McLaughlin to be established before then. Despite the result tonight the U20s showed up the first team in terms of guts, fight and determination and can be proud of their performance in the 2nd half against what looked a significantly older Hibs side.. Always difficult to predict which players will make it in the game as I doubt there was any of our players out there tonight who is fully grown. I guess our injury crisis hasn't improved as we really needed two or three of the main squad to balance things out tonight. Fraser did well enough but was of course playing to a different agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 I think McCarthy & Nisbet will make it through for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 years is far to short to judge youth development especially when we started from a very low level. I follow Scot Allison head of youth coaching on twitter and the updates he posts are positive. Without the Weir cash I would argue that a full youth academy for a club of our size is unrealistic to maintain and not worth the investment. A club like Brentford has ended its youth system and looks to giving players who have been released by bigger clubs, especially clubs in London and give them a 2nd chance. Or combine resources with other clubs like Queens Park or St Mirren. However they are happy to fund it and so we hope we find a gem and to find a real gem you need to have a combination of luck, large pool and good coaching. At the worst we give players a chance to develop, enjoy football and develop as human beings. A middle ground would be getting some squad players who always have a good rapport with the fans. At best we get a real gem who makes us better and ultimately makes the club some money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThickAsThieves Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 McCarthy should be starting this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 We actually have one of the youngest squads in Britain I'm thinking those figures include all the players listed as first-team squad members, so many youngsters may well get included. But look at the age of the players that actually play in the first team, then we would be nowhere near that top 10 list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunfermline Jag Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 The average age of our starting 11 on Saturday was 26.51. The three oldest players were Cerny, Erskine and Doolan. Collectively they added more than 2 years to that average. Maybe we should drop them to bring the age down? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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