Norgethistle Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 minute ago, scotty said: Maybe we should compare current Scotland to a pre-independent Norway? To be fair a lot of Scotland’s population either believes it’s living in 1314 or 1690 so we may need to wait a while to catch up to 1814 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: To be fair a lot of Scotland’s population either believes it’s living in 1314 or 1690 so we may need to wait a while to catch up to 1814 But not so long for 1905 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 56 minutes ago, javeajag said: But not so long for 1905 Longer from 1314 or 1690 to 1905 (Abolition of Union with Sweden) than 1814 (Creation of Independent State of Norway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Longer from 1314 or 1690 to 1905 (Abolition of Union with Sweden) than 1814 (Creation of Independent State of Norway) I’m still at 1971 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: That last statement shows why comparing an independent Scotland to Norway isn’t a reasoned argument. Sadly Cultural wise they are at different spectrums. We were asked to distance, and we did. UK (and Scotland) had to have draconian measures enforced by the police, yet were still broken. Kelvingrove park and Botanical Gardens being 2 examples. The day we announced bars were closing, people stayed away. The day UK announced the same the bars were mobbed with people try to get one last night out. The 2 countries are similar in size, only 540 miles apart (Same distance as Aberdeen to London) yet miles apart culturally wise. There has been overwhelming voluntary compliance with the Lockdown provisions in Scotland...police enforcement has been with a very light touch and was only required to deal with a few neds and dafties who wanted to get bevvied. People who went to Botanic Gardens remained socially distanced so it was no big deal. The prevalence of Coronavirus in Scotland is currently a fifth of England where a less strict/shambolic attitude prevails. Someone on this thread even insisted we should align with the UK Government and rely on their "world beating" contact-tracing app. Not enforcing a strict Lockdown and relying on the good sense of the population doesn't seem to have worked out that well in Sweden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 Choosing a Saturday of all days to allow pubs to re-open was plain daft. Especially as nobody had a scooby how many bars would open. I'm sure there must be towns where only a handful of pubs opened and too many punters poured in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARu-Strathbungo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 31 minutes ago, Winter of '63 said: There has been overwhelming voluntary compliance with the Lockdown provisions in Scotland...police enforcement has been with a very light touch and was only required to deal with a few neds and dafties who wanted to get bevvied. People who went to Botanic Gardens remained socially distanced so it was no big deal. The prevalence of Coronavirus in Scotland is currently a fifth of England where a less strict/shambolic attitude prevails. Someone on this thread even insisted we should align with the UK Government and rely on their "world beating" contact-tracing app. Not enforcing a strict Lockdown and relying on the good sense of the population doesn't seem to have worked out that well in Sweden. I think we have been fortunate in Scotland that we have politicians doing the politics and not cheerleaders, I think also a fair point was made a few weeks ago by one of the English Labour politicians that the UK didn't need a 'world beating' contact tracing app, but just one that worked. This is worth a watch:- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Winter of '63 said: There has been overwhelming voluntary compliance with the Lockdown provisions in Scotland...police enforcement has been with a very light touch and was only required to deal with a few neds and dafties who wanted to get bevvied. People who went to Botanic Gardens remained socially distanced so it was no big deal. The prevalence of Coronavirus in Scotland is currently a fifth of England where a less strict/shambolic attitude prevails. Someone on this thread even insisted we should align with the UK Government and rely on their "world beating" contact-tracing app. Not enforcing a strict Lockdown and relying on the good sense of the population doesn't seem to have worked out that well in Sweden. A fifth of England with a tenth of the population. From outside looking in neither of the parliaments seem to have done well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMCF Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 Might be worth noting that the article was published in The Spectator. The same mag/rag that published an article by Mary Wakefield describing how hubby Dom Cummings was incapacitated by Covid while the same bloke was out on epic motorway journeys to the Far North. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 I don't think anyone (in Europe to keep it simple) has done well or badly. It's a historical global pandemic. Governments and advisors are learning all the time. I've raised this before but imagine in February even when covid news was in Asia creeping towards us we would have an almost 3 month shutdown. Majority of shops closed. Pubs, restaurants, churches closed. Sport stopped. No holidays. No travel. 95% less flights. Working from home or govt paying your wages via furlough. Face masks. Hand washing. Social distancing. It's still crazy to me. Percentage wise Scotland is one of the worst hit countries along with England and Belgium. Care Homes is a big reason and these were effectively abandoned by the First and Health Minister. But is it also down to people travelling on holidays earlier in year? Older population? Sicker (that we strangely revel in) population? Just unlucky genes? Core of super spreaders who do majority of damage? Still early days to work it out. The concern over BAME population my wife is working on that for NHS but Scotlands stats are less than England. We have a lower % population but also majority of BAME workers are either consultants (highest wages) or band 1/2 (lowest wages). NHS Scotland has a lot less band 1/2 BAME staff. Thats just one example of differences that we just dont know about. Pubs opening will be very interesting. Also impact of other physical and mental health that have mostly been stopped for 3 months. Over 60% of NHS have been doing a lot less work than normal as everything bar covid was effectively stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: A fifth of England with a tenth of the population. From outside looking in neither of the parliaments seem to have done well England literally has the worst outcomes of any country on the planet.....in many ways it’s an unfair comparison as the Scottish Govt has limited or no control in many areas eg Scotland could not have taken the actions Norway did, could not close its border and so on. As soon as the Scottish govt set up it’s own independent advice panel and detached itself from the U.K. govt approach the two countries have diverged significantly.... I think today’s Sunday times poll tells the story Edited July 5, 2020 by javeajag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 46 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Care Homes is a big reason and these were effectively abandoned by the First and Health Minister. Utter rubbish...... care homes are an issue in Scotland, England, Sweden , Canada, Spain, Italy , Belgium, US etc etc so maybe it’s got something to with care homes and the pandemic ? it’s only because the Scottish govt set up it’s own ppe supply chain that care homes in Scotland weren’t in the same situation as England Donald Mcaskill Chief Executive of Scottish Care on Twitter Scandalous for Simon Stevens on #Marr to say that #PPE was not prioritised for the #NHS - 100s of Scottish care providers were told by suppliers they were prioritising the NHS. This decision directly impacted #carehomes- thank goodness for @scotgov emergency supplies route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, javeajag said: Utter rubbish...... care homes are an issue in Scotland, England, Sweden , Canada, Spain, Italy , Belgium, US etc etc so maybe it’s got something to with care homes and the pandemic ? Calm down Jeanne. The default move was get people out hospitals. Infected went into care homes. And left there. Scotland did nothing different from most but that does not mean they did better. It was the wrong move. My mates a social worker in the Paisley hospital and acks those actions killed a lot of people. It was process not people. And PPE was no better in Scotland. Demand was far greater than supply all over the world. These are all issues that impacted Europe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: And PPE was no better in Scotland. There is not and has never been any shortage of ppe in Scotland . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: A fifth of England with a tenth of the population. From outside looking in neither of the parliaments seem to have done well A fifth in proportion terms, not in total numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 We seem to have done a lot better since accepting that alignment across the UK wasn't working out too well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 59 minutes ago, javeajag said: There is not and has never been any shortage of ppe in Scotland . There was a shortage in every nation across the globe especially care homes. No one was ready for anything like this. Public and private sector. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, javeajag said: Scandalous for Simon Stevens on #Marr to say that #PPE was not prioritised for the #NHS - 100s of Scottish care providers were told by suppliers they were prioritising the NHS. This decision directly impacted #carehomes- thank goodness for @scotgov emergency supplies route. That’s because Scotland decided to procure centrally instead of locally like England and Wales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: That’s because Scotland decided to procure centrally instead of locally like England and Wales And the Scottish govt organised it’s own supply chain and set up local manufacturing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: That’s because Scotland decided to procure centrally instead of locally like England and Wales I take it you mean distribute and not procure. The local procurement only came after international supplies became obviously short. The central distribution was even localised to individual NHS boards and Health and social care partnerships and came about because private companies could not get supplies due to the reasons outlined above and also their suppliers were bumping up the price (maybe after creating a shortage, who knows?), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: There was a shortage in every nation across the globe especially care homes. No one was ready for anything like this. Public and private sector. Factually incorrect .... unless you argue China isn’t a country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Calm down Jeanne. The default move was get people out hospitals. Infected went into care homes. And left there. Scotland did nothing different from most but that does not mean they did better. It was the wrong move. My mates a social worker in the Paisley hospital and acks those actions killed a lot of people. It was process not people. And PPE was no better in Scotland. Demand was far greater than supply all over the world. These are all issues that impacted Europe. I know a number of private sector care home operators and this agrees completely with what they have told me. It seems to me that if you took care homes out of the numbers, Scotland and England would have much lower numbers. The strategy to move people from hospitals into are homes when you had a disease whose symptoms did not show for several days was a massive error. It was an error made by both Scottish and UK governments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 hours ago, allyo said: A fifth in proportion terms, not in total numbers But with much lower population density. Comparisons really are pretty meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 43 minutes ago, jaf said: I know a number of private sector care home operators and this agrees completely with what they have told me. It seems to me that if you took care homes out of the numbers, Scotland and England would have much lower numbers. The strategy to move people from hospitals into are homes when you had a disease whose symptoms did not show for several days was a massive error. It was an error made by both Scottish and UK governments. The fact that private sector care homes did not supply ppe does mean there was a shortage of ppe in Scotland. the private ownership of care homes will be one of the casualties hopefully of the pandemic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, jaf said: It was an error made by both Scottish and UK governments. Yep and a lot of others unfortunately including Sweden who tried not to action a shutdown but their death rate is very high and they ack their care home policy was wrong. Maybe their policy will be better long term but we won't know for years. For me its way to early for any real understanding or conclusion to this. Westminster and Holyrood have made mostly the same decisons with Edinburgh 7 to 10 days after London. This thing will be with us for the next year or two minimum with more deaths and outbreaks like Leicester. Policies will change. We will learn more. Practices such as social distancing, face masks etc will hopefully become the norm to control. I am scunnered by it even though I have avoided any real pain and able to work from home. At the same time things are looking slightly more positive. In Europe kids going back to school stats = low to zero risk. That will help them and parents as we hopefully get 5 days education. Testing is increasing, track and trace and hopefully an app helps us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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