Jags vs. Lichties, 23rd Sep

[jlsarmy]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

The 4 or 5 cameos from Fitzpatrick was more than anyone else managed in the game. Harry doesn’t look interested this season for some reason.

Don’t disagree with any of that but ideally you would want Fitzpatrick and Milne to dovetail and work as hard as Lawless and McMillan.

[jlsarmy]

2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Earlier last season there was reason to criticise Fitzpatrick's work rate. Perhaps lack of fitness/effort was a reason he rarely started? Now he starts every game and has played 90 min every league game bar one (a tactical substitution). Now in my mind if he's not doing the work set out for him on a continuous basis then Aiden's either disregarding instruction and the manager's letting him off or the manager isn't finding a chronic fault with the player. My point really being that continual criticism of a player not giving 100% is continual criticism of the manager. In fact I would say the manager would be far more to blame than the player. Throw in the captain for good measure as he's clearly not captaining the side if the player closest to him is not playing to order. If you blame Fitzpatrick then Doolan and Graham are equally if not even more to blame.

Personally I don't think that's the case. Said before our last line defence is unprotected. A defensive mid would cover for attacking fullbacks (eg Paton for SOD & ATS) not so much attacking wide players.  You can argue that by not having the luxury of a defensive midfielder then Lawless & Fitzpatrick should do more defensively. Merit in that but I feel that's a tactical matter rather than personal responsibility. And that brings you back to criticism of the manager rather than the player.  

 

Good post but you can see BG constantly on Aiden’s case .

Just my opinion but Doolan plays Fitzpatrick for his strengths and what he can create , not sure that’s enough when you’re in a battle or you’re behind in a game .

At our level can we afford a luxury player?

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

Don’t disagree with any of that but ideally you would want Fitzpatrick and Milne to dovetail and work as hard as Lawless and McMillan.

Absolutely……Guardiola has drummed into Grealish what he needs to do when they don’t have the ball and jogging back isn’t it  ….ill forgive players a lot but not working hard isn’t one of them 

[Jaggernaut]

4 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

 Harry doesn’t look interested this season for some reason.

Hmm, might it be because his teammate/companion/partner/bro got a more lucrative deal at another club?

[Garscube Road End 2]

9 hours ago, Emsca said:

Is your answer to every bad result to sack the manager ?

Doolan is a young manager in his first full season - he is learning and will undoubtedly make mistakes . He is clearly intelligent and will get better . As supporters ( the clue is in the word) we should be getting behind him and the team - not using every opportunity to snipe and make smart arsed remarks .

I am all for constructive criticism but comments like “ we’re not very good “ are completely unhelpful.

 

There is a difference being a supporter who recognises deficiencies and opinions on them and to a supporter who sees nothing wrong with what the management or team are doing. Dools tinted glasses.??. Where did I say sack Doolan. A young McCall remark is in relation to the eerily same pattern of performances and results as under McCall. Granted that budget is tighter and we are in the low end of the signing market, but to date Doolan's signings have been meh, particularly as been commented by many on her, the midfielder problems haven't been addressed.

[Garscube Road End 2]

31 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

Hmm, might it be because his teammate/companion/partner/bro got a more lucrative deal at another club?

Maybe his agent, who is Dowds agent, is whispering in his ear.

[JAG1970]

On 9/24/2023 at 7:29 PM, jlsarmy said:

Dools probably didn’t want to change a winning team, next week I see Robinson starting instead of Stanway , Ngwenya for Zander .

The warning signs were already flashing… outplayed and outbossed in midfield by Ayr until we scored our second, scoring our third against QP (at 2.1)completely against the run of play when our midfield was again being overwhelmed, QP had also just hit the woodwork. Then coming up against a hugely experienced and cunning manager on Saturday who will have seen us play against Ayr and probably couldn’t believe his luck when he heard he was playing the same team.

I’m sure Doolan will learn but he doesn’t have many options middle to back with the squad he has assembled. Milne’s form has dropped significantly, Williams seems frequently unavailable due to personal issues (but Doolan was well aware of the subsequent risk in signing him), Zander can’t cover RB (which was obvious weeks ago), Ngwena is kind off unknown despite playing many games for a couple of championship sides - was caught out a few times against Ayr and again on Saturday being too far forward), and as we all know we have a plethora of midfielders but none yet it seems a decent defensive one which is a BIG problem and the main reason we haven’t kept a clean sheet - except ironically against Ayr because they were poor in front of goal and Sneddon put in a good performance.

Fitzy jogging back is another unresolved issue. He’s nowhere near the hard worker that Lawless is and the one that Tiffoney became. 
So a lot for Doolan to resolve and that will be a test of his coaching ability, but I can’t see how this is completely fixable before the January window. 

Before somebody accuses me of wanting him out that is not the case. Even a defeat on Saturday which (if we played like we did on Saturday) would be his equivalent of McCalls Cove/Hamilton debacle,  he clearly still deserves more time in the role but he’s going to have to learn fast. I also accept he’s working on a smaller budget than his predecessor had last season but these are the cards he’s been dealt. 

[dl1971]

14 hours ago, JAG1970 said:

The warning signs were already flashing… outplayed and outbossed in midfield by Ayr until we scored our second, scoring our third against QP (at 2.1)completely against the run of play when our midfield was again being overwhelmed, QP had also just hit the woodwork. Then coming up against a hugely experienced and cunning manager on Saturday who will have seen us play against Ayr and probably couldn’t believe his luck when he heard he was playing the same team.

I’m sure Doolan will learn but he doesn’t have many options middle to back with the squad he has assembled. Milne’s form has dropped significantly, Williams seems frequently unavailable due to personal issues (but Doolan was well aware of the subsequent risk in signing him), Zander can’t cover RB (which was obvious weeks ago), Ngwena is kind off unknown despite playing many games for a couple of championship sides - was caught out a few times against Ayr and again on Saturday being too far forward), and as we all know we have a plethora of midfielders but none yet it seems a decent defensive one which is a BIG problem and the main reason we haven’t kept a clean sheet - except ironically against Ayr because they were poor in front of goal and Sneddon put in a good performance.

Fitzy jogging back is another unresolved issue. He’s nowhere near the hard worker that Lawless is and the one that Tiffoney became. 
So a lot for Doolan to resolve and that will be a test of his coaching ability, but I can’t see how this is completely fixable before the January window. 

Before somebody accuses me of wanting him out that is not the case. Even a defeat on Saturday which (if we played like we did on Saturday) would be his equivalent of McCalls Cove/Hamilton debacle,  he clearly still deserves more time in the role but he’s going to have to learn fast. I also accept he’s working on a smaller budget than his predecessor had last season but these are the cards he’s been dealt. 

Arbroath are miles better than Cove or Hamilton, as I suspect Dunfermline will be, so not exactly a comparison....nevertheless hopefully we up our game on Saturday 

[Auld Jag]

20 hours ago, JAG1970 said:

The warning signs were already flashing… outplayed and outbossed in midfield by Ayr until we scored our second, scoring our third against QP (at 2.1)completely against the run of play when our midfield was again being overwhelmed, QP had also just hit the woodwork. Then coming up against a hugely experienced and cunning manager on Saturday who will have seen us play against Ayr and probably couldn’t believe his luck when he heard he was playing the same team.

I’m sure Doolan will learn but he doesn’t have many options middle to back with the squad he has assembled. Milne’s form has dropped significantly, Williams seems frequently unavailable due to personal issues (but Doolan was well aware of the subsequent risk in signing him), Zander can’t cover RB (which was obvious weeks ago), Ngwena is kind off unknown despite playing many games for a couple of championship sides - was caught out a few times against Ayr and again on Saturday being too far forward), and as we all know we have a plethora of midfielders but none yet it seems a decent defensive one which is a BIG problem and the main reason we haven’t kept a clean sheet - except ironically against Ayr because they were poor in front of goal and Sneddon put in a good performance.

Fitzy jogging back is another unresolved issue. He’s nowhere near the hard worker that Lawless is and the one that Tiffoney became. 
So a lot for Doolan to resolve and that will be a test of his coaching ability, but I can’t see how this is completely fixable before the January window. 

Before somebody accuses me of wanting him out that is not the case. Even a defeat on Saturday which (if we played like we did on Saturday) would be his equivalent of McCalls Cove/Hamilton debacle,  he clearly still deserves more time in the role but he’s going to have to learn fast. I also accept he’s working on a smaller budget than his predecessor had last season but these are the cards he’s been dealt. 

Not disagreeing with you, but one thing that has annoyed me for years is the 'if wasn't for the keeper we would have won/lost' argument. The keepers job is to stop the ball going into the net, no matter how spectacular a save they have to make to do it. Rant over.

As for Ayr, imo they flattered to deceive, Chalmers in particular. 

[JAG1970]

2 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

Not disagreeing with you, but one thing that has annoyed me for years is the 'if wasn't for the keeper we would have won/lost' argument. The keepers job is to stop the ball going into the net, no matter how spectacular a save they have to make to do it. Rant over.

As for Ayr, imo they flattered to deceive, Chalmers in particular. 

Not disagreeing with you either but my point was we were overrun in midfield and another team would have made more of it. Arbroath did and the risk is others will too unless Doolan can find a mix that tightens things up between now and January. 

[Auld Jag]

52 minutes ago, JAG1970 said:

Not disagreeing with you either but my point was we were overrun in midfield and another team would have made more of it. Arbroath did and the risk is others will too unless Doolan can find a mix that tightens things up between now and January. 

Agree.

[partickthedog]

Hard tackling ball-winning central midfielders do not always have to be bought. They can be fashioned out of existing material. I give you Paul Paton, for several years an occasionally successful but frequently rather frustratingly awkward footed right full back, whom Jackie McNamara converted into a reliably effective midfield anchor. Could any of our current crop of central midfielders be adapted? Surely the incentive of being a regular starter rather than a bit part player would be an incentive to be the subject of such an experiment. Williamson and Stanway with youth (but also dig and toughness) on their side are the most obvious candidates, with a leaning towards Stanway as his is the much longer term commitment to Thistle.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, partickthedog said:

Hard tackling ball-winning central midfielders do not always have to be bought. They can be fashioned out of existing material. I give you Paul Paton, for several years an occasionally successful but frequently rather frustratingly awkward footed right full back, whom Jackie McNamara converted into a reliably effective midfield anchor. Could any of our current crop of central midfielders be adapted? Surely the incentive of being a regular starter rather than a bit part player would be an incentive to be the subject of such an experiment. Williamson and Stanway with youth (but also dig and toughness) on their side are the most obvious candidates, with a leaning towards Stanway as his is the much longer term commitment to Thistle.

A lot of truth in that. But think a problem with the likes of Stanway and Williamson is they already have been playing central midfield and have shown little sign of having ball winning quality. It's not as if they've been deployed in a different area of the pitch. Think if anyone can do the job it'll be someone out of defence. I've thought maybe Neilson or Ngwenya but I'm maybe doing a bit of straw clutching.  

Alston's now the wrong side of thirty and it's not uncommon for attacking/creative midfielders to extend their careers moving into more defensive roles. He's no lightweight and certainly isn't exactly flavour of the month in his more accustomed role. But once again more straw clutching.  

[ChiThistle]

Late posting, but……I’m gonna have to take the blame for this one.  I seem to have become a jinx when I attend games in person.  But I brought some baby formula and nappies so there’s that.

I love Thistle, but this game was a flaming sack of shite.  No creativity, drive, or purpose.  Arbroath first to every ball and every second ball.  Lost count of how many diagonal balls from Neilson to McKenzie sailed too far (and not like Zander would have known what to do with them as others have noted he’s not a right back).  Kieran should be first choice when McMillan isn’t there.  He offers more offensively than Zander does defensively at that particular position.

Lot of fans in my area cursing at Fitzy for his constant yapping at officials.  Can’t say I blame them.  Real opportunity for him to be a leader on this team if he wants it.

Somehow this game brought out the worst in us.  I don’t think we are world beaters but I also don’t think this game was indicative of who we are as a team.  Hope the post-match talk was a lot of tough love.