Player fund

[Lenziejag]

15 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

With all due respect - its the job of the Clubs Board of Directors to run a balanced budget and provide adequate funds for the Player Budget - its not the job of TJF ( in essence the Club Shareholder ) to do the Boards job for them - lets call this for what it is - its a begging bowl to make up for lack of cash for the January Transfer Window - it IS an exercise in tipping as much money into the Club as possible for the Board to spend as they please - there IS no clear lines of who is actually in charge - as TJF and the Board are joined at the hip - therefore Corporate Governance where Shareholders hold Boards to account is non existent - Weak Corporate Governance creates badly run Companies

we received £500K in “ investment” a few weeks ago - yet we are Crowdfunding in the run up to Xmas when Fans Money is tight to bolster the Managers Jan Transfer Window and somehow this is being spun as a positive - its not - its a desperate call for Fans to stick in cash 

If the Board doesn't have enough money - make cuts - balance the budget - if they dont have the Business Skills to do that - the Shareholders remove them and get someone who can - thats Business 

is TJF the shareholder are the Boards Enabler ? make your mind up 

 

 

 

I guess there are 2 points here. TJF are also board members, so have a role in raising funds.

Secondly, the fans have minds of their own and can decide whether to contribute or not. It’s not compulsory.

[scotty]

22 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

With all due respect - its the job of the Clubs Board of Directors to run a balanced budget and provide adequate funds for the Player Budget - its not the job of TJF ( in essence the Club Shareholder ) to do the Boards job for them - lets call this for what it is - its a begging bowl to make up for lack of cash for the January Transfer Window - it IS an exercise in tipping as much money into the Club as possible for the Board to spend as they please - there IS no clear lines of who is actually in charge - as TJF and the Board are joined at the hip - therefore Corporate Governance where Shareholders hold Boards to account is non existent - Weak Corporate Governance creates badly run Companies

we received £500K in “ investment” a few weeks ago - yet we are Crowdfunding in the run up to Xmas when Fans Money is tight to bolster the Managers Jan Transfer Window and somehow this is being spun as a positive - its not - its a desperate call for Fans to stick in cash 

If the Board doesn't have enough money - make cuts - balance the budget - if they dont have the Business Skills to do that - the Shareholders remove them and get someone who can - thats Business 

is TJF the shareholder are the Boards Enabler ? make your mind up

It's not TJF which called for donations to the player fund. That was the club. I don't see any problem in trying to raise additional funds for a better January window.

[Jordanhill Jag]

35 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I guess there are 2 points here. TJF are also board members, so have a role in raising funds.

Secondly, the fans have minds of their own and can decide whether to contribute or not. It’s not compulsory.

On your first point - thats clearly an issue - Shareholders are there to hold Boards to Account ? 

So would the  TJF Sack its own Directors if they are not performing ?  

On the Second - of course they are - however its a Begging Bowl and raises Questions on the Finances straight after a £500K "Investment" - sprinkling Red & Yellow Glitter around it Near Xmas does not remove this or the fact it should be a concern      

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

32 minutes ago, scotty said:

It's not TJF which called for donations to the player fund. That was the club. I don't see any problem in trying to raise additional funds for a better January window.

No but TJF are supporting them - lets call it for what it is - a Begging Bowl - its up to the Board to balance the Budget & Provide Funds for Players - if they cant do that then they are removed by the Shareholders      

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

On your first point - thats clearly an issue - Shareholders are there to hold Boards to Account ? Not be there Enablers  

So would the  TJF Sack its own Directors if they are not performing ?  

On the Second - of course they are - however its a Begging Bowl and raises Questions on the Finances straight after a £500K "Investment" - sprinkling Red & Yellow Glitter around it Near Xmas does not remove this or the fact it should be a concern      

 

 

[scotty]

4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

No but TJF are supporting them - lets call it for what it is - a Begging Bowl - its up to the Board to balance the Budget & Provide Funds for Players - if they cant do that then they are removed by the Shareholders      

So what are you saying? That no-one who doesn't have bottomless pockets should be allowed on the board? Where are we going to find that person? The reason we are in this situation is because a previous majority shareholder was desperate to get out of the club and sold it to the only person who had the resources to buy his shares.

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

With all due respect - its the job of the Clubs Board of Directors to run a balanced budget and provide adequate funds for the Player Budget - its not the job of TJF ( in essence the Club Shareholder ) to do the Boards job for them

Sorry, I'm confused. What part of the job is TJF doing for the Club Board?

We're not involved in the Players' Fund. It's a Club initiative.

TJF is the primary fan fundraising vehicle. It was agreed at the start of the season, after discussions with the Club Board that we would make a £10kpm minimum contribution towards the operating budget of the Football Club.

If we're able to provide additional support to the Club ahead of the January transfer window, while giving something back to our members as a thank you for their efforts, that's great and the beginning and end of it really!

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

- lets call this for what it is - its a begging bowl to make up for lack of cash for the January Transfer Window -

Let me get this right... we should criticise the Club for prominently advertising a mechanism to donate specifically to Kris Doolan's player budget just before the January transfer window?

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

it IS an exercise in tipping as much money into the Club as possible for the Board to spend as they please -

On the contrary, it's my understanding that the Players Fund is specifically ring-fenced.

As for TJF's contributions to the Club, we're damned if we do here and we're damned if we don't.

If we tell the Club how it should spend that money, people will be accusing us of trying to run the Football Club instead of leaving those decisions to the Club Board.

If we don't tell the Club how it should spend that money, you say there's no clear line of accountability about who's in charge.

So which of these is the right approach?

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

there IS no clear lines of who is actually in charge - as TJF and the Board are joined at the hip -

This isn't true.

TJF had no say in the appointment of Richard Beastall as a Director. That decision was taken by the PTFC Trust, long before TJF became a trustee.

Dougie McCrea was invited to join the board at the urging of Alistair Creevy, before any direct TJF representation was on the Club Board at all, and before TJF became a trustee.

Caroline Mackie was a PTFC Trust appointee on the recommendation of TJF, and appointed before TJF became a trustee. She acts on the club board autonomously and without direction from the TJF board.

Only Andrew Holloway sits on both the Club Board and the TJF Board and has routine interaction with both boards.

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

therefore Corporate Governance where Shareholders hold Boards to account is non existent - Weak Corporate Governance creates badly run Companies

You're forgetting that the current Club board is, and always has been, a temporary arrangement. As you'll have seen in a recent Club update, there are discussions ongoing about the implementation of a Club-Trust agreement, making more permanent provision around how Club Directors are to be appointed, how direct fan representation is going to work and more besides. We are hoping this will be at a final or near final stage before the AGM in January.

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

we received £500K in “ investment” a few weeks ago - yet we are Crowdfunding in the run up to Xmas when Fans Money is tight to bolster the Managers Jan Transfer Window and somehow this is being spun as a positive - its not - its a desperate call for Fans to stick in cash 

That investment was done to begin restoring the Club's margin of safety. The Players' Fund is an initiative specifically focused on boosting the player budget. They are two different, complementary, things.

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

If the Board doesn't have enough money - make cuts - balance the budget - if they dont have the Business Skills to do that - the Shareholders remove them and get someone who can - thats Business 

I'm not a businessman, but I do know that there are two ways that you can deal with "not having enough money".

One is to "make cuts" and the other is to "get more money".

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

is TJF the shareholder are the Boards Enabler ? make your mind up 

TJF isn't the shareholder (I know you know this). I don't know what, specifically, we are supposedly "enabling" but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, BowenBoys said:

This is straight from the Civil Service play book, page 1. It says nothing. You could as well state that there has been an increase in membership since the Bake Off final or since it started snowing.

Most of your points are well considered but adding puff like this isn't helpful.

Okay, let's put it another way. We specifically saw a spike in new memberships on the day this was announced and subsequently (slightly over 20 new members, just under half at the General rate, and the remainder evenly split across the Concessionary, Basic and Junior membership categories). The value of the pledges for those memberships, over the course of a year, will be about £1500 extra.

Does it fully cover the cost of the hospitality? No, obviously not. But it is growing the organisation and building the income base, which is good news.

[Woodstock Jag]

30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

On your first point - thats clearly an issue - Shareholders are there to hold Boards to Account ? 

That's fine. TJF isn't a shareholder. It's a trustee of the majority shareholder.

30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So would the  TJF Sack its own Directors if they are not performing?

If we felt that Andrew Holloway was doing a bad job as a director of the Football Club, we would ask him to step down, and I'm sure he would probably thank us for relieving him of the burden!

Ultimately, however TJF does not have unilateral control over board appointments and decisions. Those are taken by the trustees collectively, and TJF is only one of four trustees (as things stand).

30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

On the Second - of course they are - however its a Begging Bowl and raises Questions on the Finances straight after a £500K "Investment" - sprinkling Red & Yellow Glitter around it Near Xmas does not remove this or the fact it should be a concern      

So to be clear your argument is that the Players' Fund shouldn't exist and that the Club shouldn't promote it?

[BowenBoys]

23 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Okay, let's put it another way. We specifically saw a spike in new memberships on the day this was announced and subsequently (slightly over 20 new members, just under half at the General rate, and the remainder evenly split across the Concessionary, Basic and Junior membership categories). The value of the pledges for those memberships, over the course of a year, will be about £1500 extra.

Yes, that's better.

Does it fully cover the cost of the hospitality? No, obviously not. But it is growing the organisation and building the income base, which is good news.

I made no criticism of the scheme. For the record, I think it's a good idea.

 

[elevenone]

Euromillions is 186m this Tuesday.  That’s one, maybe even two new additions in Jan window right there.  😁

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Everything the club do is a "Begging bowl" in all reality.  We are a small club and neef as much money as possible all the time.  That's life.  Any initiative to get £ should be used.

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

That's fine. TJF isn't a shareholder. It's a trustee of the majority shareholder.

If we felt that Andrew Holloway was doing a bad job as a director of the Football Club, we would ask him to step down, and I'm sure he would probably thank us for relieving him of the burden!

Ultimately, however TJF does not have unilateral control over board appointments and decisions. Those are taken by the trustees collectively, and TJF is only one of four trustees (as things stand).

So to be clear your argument is that the Players' Fund shouldn't exist and that the Club shouldn't promote it?

If any Director thinks its a burden they should step down immediately its the height of arrogance to think there isn't someone as capable ( or more capable ) that can replace you in a Heartbeat  

Back to the Players fund - its the responsibility of the Board to balance the Budget and provide funds for players

If the very best they can do to increase revenue income - is the Football Equivalent of asking your Fans for 50p for a Cup of Tea -then they have failed - there supposed to be an improvement on previous Boards - We are not a Charity we are a business - start acting like one 

The Players Fund in my opinion is simply lazy - just give us your money and we will decide how to spend it !! is that the best we can do ? 
 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Everything the club do is a "Begging bowl" in all reality.  We are a small club and neef as much money as possible all the time.  That's life.  Any initiative to get £ should be used.

No its not Season Tickets - Hospitality etc etc - they are not a begging bowl 

players fund screams we cant be arsed doing anything - just give us your money - its lazy 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

With all respect @Jordanhill Jag do you have a better idea?

1. Board members investment

2. External investment/donations

3. TJF funding

4. Sponsorship incl 71 Club

5. Season tickets, walk ups and hospitality 

6. Centenary Club & Players Fund

Multiple ways of raising money.  The Players Fund has also existed for 10 years or so.

[Fawlty Towers]

3 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

With all respect @Jordanhill Jag do you have a better idea?

1. Board members investment

2. External investment/donations

3. TJF funding

4. Sponsorship incl 71 Club

5. Season tickets, walk ups and hospitality 

6. Centenary Club & Players Fund

Multiple ways of raising money.  The Players Fund has also existed for 10 years or so.

Yet it is suddenly an issue when it gets promoted at the time of year when it is to be used 

[Jordanhill Jag]

12 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Sorry, I'm confused. What part of the job is TJF doing for the Club Board?

We're not involved in the Players' Fund. It's a Club initiative.

TJF is the primary fan fundraising vehicle. It was agreed at the start of the season, after discussions with the Club Board that we would make a £10kpm minimum contribution towards the operating budget of the Football Club.

If we're able to provide additional support to the Club ahead of the January transfer window, while giving something back to our members as a thank you for their efforts, that's great and the beginning and end of it really!

Let me get this right... we should criticise the Club for prominently advertising a mechanism to donate specifically to Kris Doolan's player budget just before the January transfer window?

On the contrary, it's my understanding that the Players Fund is specifically ring-fenced.

As for TJF's contributions to the Club, we're damned if we do here and we're damned if we don't.

If we tell the Club how it should spend that money, people will be accusing us of trying to run the Football Club instead of leaving those decisions to the Club Board.

If we don't tell the Club how it should spend that money, you say there's no clear line of accountability about who's in charge.

So which of these is the right approach?

This isn't true.

TJF had no say in the appointment of Richard Beastall as a Director. That decision was taken by the PTFC Trust, long before TJF became a trustee.

Dougie McCrea was invited to join the board at the urging of Alistair Creevy, before any direct TJF representation was on the Club Board at all, and before TJF became a trustee.

Caroline Mackie was a PTFC Trust appointee on the recommendation of TJF, and appointed before TJF became a trustee. She acts on the club board autonomously and without direction from the TJF board.

Only Andrew Holloway sits on both the Club Board and the TJF Board and has routine interaction with both boards.

You're forgetting that the current Club board is, and always has been, a temporary arrangement. As you'll have seen in a recent Club update, there are discussions ongoing about the implementation of a Club-Trust agreement, making more permanent provision around how Club Directors are to be appointed, how direct fan representation is going to work and more besides. We are hoping this will be at a final or near final stage before the AGM in January.

That investment was done to begin restoring the Club's margin of safety. The Players' Fund is an initiative specifically focused on boosting the player budget. They are two different, complementary, things.

I'm not a businessman, but I do know that there are two ways that you can deal with "not having enough money".

One is to "make cuts" and the other is to "get more money".

TJF isn't the shareholder (I know you know this). I don't know what, specifically, we are supposedly "enabling" but you're entitled to your opinion.

You are 100% correct - as a business you keep all non essential costs to a minimum and you are innovative in coming up with ideas that add value and generate revenue - what this screams is that the Board do not have the Skillset to deliver on either

TJF are enabling by not having distance and being prepared to demand changes - simply subsidising decisions via Cash Contributions

one thing Im confused on - if Caroline Mackie is not there from TJF - who does she represent ? Who is she answerable to ? 

As for “ Ring Fencing” Cash - I think we have seen how that doesn't work over the last few months outside PTFC 

I will repeat - the Players Fund screams cant be arsed coming up with proper ideas on controlling costs and increasing revenue - in the real World you would be sacked 

Its not TJF but by defending it - you associate yourself with it 

you also enabled the Board by allowing them to reduce the minimal Quorum if they decide - if the Directors cant make the time to attend Board Meetings they step down - if they keep losing Board Members - its there issue - its not up to TJF to make it easy for them by changing the Club Rules - they created the problem - they solve it  

Edited December 3, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag

[Jordanhill Jag]

8 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

With all respect @Jordanhill Jag do you have a better idea?

1. Board members investment

2. External investment/donations

3. TJF funding

4. Sponsorship incl 71 Club

5. Season tickets, walk ups and hospitality 

6. Centenary Club & Players Fund

Multiple ways of raising money.  The Players Fund has also existed for 10 years or so.

None of those is a begging pool 

The Players Fund is Lazy - simply says cant be arsed - just give us your money 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

10 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

None of those is a begging pool 

The Players Fund is Lazy - simply says cant be arsed - just give us your money 

I'm sure you're not alone in thinking that, and it would be a very hard task to convince people of the same opinion anything otherwise.

It is tho' what we've got in place at the moment. I guess it's up to us* to come up with another vehicle, which will be at the very least just as effective.

 

*deliberately being vague in using the word "us".

[Very Bitter Jag]

10 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The Players Fund is Lazy - simply says cant be arsed - just give us your money 

The players fund was introduced in 2016, under David Beattie's chair, are you saying David Beattie was lazy too? 

[Fawlty Towers]

Given, as has been said previously, the Players Fund has been on the go for several years I am struggling to understand why now some people are so angry about it.

However, if they don't want to support it that is there choice just as it is the choice of those who do.

If people want to generate more funds for our club but not feel like it is through a "begging bowl" then here are some ways to do that.

Sign up for the Centenary Fund - you can win prizes:

https://ptfc.co.uk/product-category/centenary-fund/

Buy a calendar - you need to have your key dates noted somewhere:

https://ptfc.co.uk/product/the-official-2024-calendar/

Join easyfundraising if you are an online shopper (you are doing it anyway so this just means the club benefit):

https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/

If your mobile phone needs a new cover get it here (they also do cups as well):

https://nostalgia.co.uk/collections/partick-thistle-phone-cases

Thank You

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Don't forget Greaves

https://www.greavessports.com/pages/partick-thistle

[Tom Hosie]

[ChiThistle]

So the 500k investment is really not meant to be spent, right?  It’s essentially an emergency fund for cash reserves?

Does that money sit in a bank account? Does it get invested in some way so it’s making money?

[Fawlty Towers]

The statement that was put on when the investment was announced:

https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/partick-thistle-fc-announces-strategic-investment/