potty trained Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because we have as much in terms of resources as the other teams outside the top 6 or 7 No we don't. For example We sold off all our land to keep the company that operates the club afloat under Cowan/Hughes/McMaster. We're left with owning half a stadium in assets. That's for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 The facts are that we are a yo yo club that has overachieved in the past 3 years or so. We are probably not quite good enough to have a permanent place in the top division. If we had a 16 team league, I think we would survive easily. The difference between us and clubs like Ross Co, ICT, St Johnstone or teams with similar crowds is that we don't have a sugar daddy or a board that is willing to push the boat out a bit in order to survive. The sooner our support realise that this is the good times, the better. Sadly I just don't see that happening. ICT and St Johnstone have a sugar daddy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 St Johnstone have been supported by the Browns for nearly 30 yrs. ICT previously racked up huge debts ehich were written off by their sugar daddy. Tulloch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) ICT and St Johnstone have a sugar daddy? Did I say that???? As LSR points out the Browns have dipped into their pockets and the ICT board have always pushed the boat out to get players for their manager. No one wants to see a repeat of the STJ days, but I feel the board could have done more to help Archie out this season rather than slash his budget! Edited September 16, 2015 by Lindau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 St Johnstone have been cutting back for seasons. ICT have been signing unknown players from England for seasons. Seems any excuse will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 St Johnstone have been cutting back for seasons. ICT have been signing unknown players from England for seasons. Seems any excuse will do. Not sure what the excuses are! With very similar crowds, St Johnstone have won the cup and appeared in Europe in the last few seasons. Same applies to ICT. Both clubs have backed their manager whereas we appear to have pulled the rug from beneath Archie's feet this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 With us making a loss last year the board had little option but to cut Archie's budget. We have signed 7 players so he has had money to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Not sure what the excuses are! With very similar crowds, St Johnstone have won the cup and appeared in Europe in the last few seasons. Same applies to ICT. Both clubs have backed their manager whereas we appear to have pulled the rug from beneath Archie's feet this year. There's a very fine line between a board simply backing a manager and a board underwriting a manager. Over the last 12 years or so clubs speculating to accumulate have by and large come croppers. Even our canny board I sense, albeit in a relatively minor way, have been caught out with our current level of home support. The only other serious revenue stream is thru the fruits of the Weir Academy but that's both some time away and contains no certainties. If there was a high degree of assurance we will be producing homegrown players with sizable transfer value then I'd be wanting the boat pushed out just now as well. But in reality I think we're doing the right thing even if it's unpalatable to many amongst us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 There's a very fine line between a board simply backing a manager and a board underwriting a manager. Over the last 12 years or so clubs speculating to accumulate have by and large come croppers. Even our canny board I sense, albeit in a relatively minor way, have been caught out with our current level of home support. The only other serious revenue stream is thru the fruits of the Weir Academy but that's both some time away and contains no certainties. If there was a high degree of assurance we will be producing homegrown players with sizable transfer value then I'd be wanting the boat pushed out just now as well. But in reality I think we're doing the right thing even if it's unpalatable to many amongst us. And you could add that one example, St Johnstone, are a rare case of a club getting lucky and being donated a tract of land to build a new stadium on meaning they could sell their old stadium at a profit while building a new one less ex[pensively than other clubs who have moved. They've since then been run very carefully and and don't have serious money worries. We on the other hand, while been run reasonably well, still have debt - small but then we are a small club so have to be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Garbage. So it's garbage that in the last few years St Johnstone have won a major cup and appeared in Europe and ICT have won a major cup and appeared in Europe and that Archie has had his budget cut, with all three clubs operating at similar crowd levels. It was you that questioned St Johnstone and ICT having sugar daddies!! I have never advocated that we live out with our means, but at some point the board have got to forward think, even just a little. It's a cert that Sevco will be back in the league next season and with games against them, Sellik, Aberdeen, Hearts and maybe Hibs, the crowd situation then looks up. If we go down this season and with the amount of players we have going out of contract at the end of the season, it could be a fair while before we are back in the top league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 There's a very fine line between a board simply backing a manager and a board underwriting a manager. Over the last 12 years or so clubs speculating to accumulate have by and large come croppers. Even our canny board I sense, albeit in a relatively minor way, have been caught out with our current level of home support. The only other serious revenue stream is thru the fruits of the Weir Academy but that's both some time away and contains no certainties. If there was a high degree of assurance we will be producing homegrown players with sizable transfer value then I'd be wanting the boat pushed out just now as well. But in reality I think we're doing the right thing even if it's unpalatable to many amongst us. Totally agree. The original argument here is that we are under achieving, I think we are over achieving and anyone that has supported the club as long as you and I, know that. We don't have a sugar daddy or a board willing to take risks. Again I am ok with that, but we lost a lot of the high earners in the summer, received a pretty good sponsorship deal, got good money for Jack Hendry and with the likelihood that Scotland newest club will be in the top league next season, I just think the board could have loosened the purse strings to help the manager out a bit more. Only my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 I don't want to hamper people's ambition, but I don't mind putting a dent in some's expectation. We have to establish ourselves as a top tier club. In league competition, I think we're putting down decent foundations. Ok, there is criticisms to be made of our current form and results. However, Archie has successfully guided squads that were not certainties to survive twice in the last 2 seasons, improving our final ranking consecutively without alot of cash. The league is no doubt improved a little with the edition of a reborn hearts, aberdeen growing in confidince that they can compete with a vastly better funded celtic.Talk of top 6 or Europe is fine for aspiration, but the neccessity is survival. ... And there should be no shame in that. When the generous donation from the Weirs was offered, it was wisely, 100% invested in what is not just a First team farm for players, but an asset which grows the club in reputation, stature and reach into the community. ... I'm kinda missing Bilko's posts.... I really don't mean to censor criticism, but counter-criticism is valid also. I know some want more engagement from the club, or would love to see "fan ownership" but personally i doubt the quantity that would sacrifice time and effort required to be of genuine assistance. As a fan I am somewhat detached from day to day club business. That suits me. I'm a fan not an official. I'd happily be a member but not on committee right now. I accept the club will make mistakes, I accept the team will have good days and bad runs, I do not like it, however I will defend them as best i can. That is not to say i will not speak up against malice or neglect. As someone else said "these are the good times" .... It's very true. Just take a moment to look back and think about it . We should be very proud of where we are. People moan about over coverage of the old fim in the press. Therefore, it's up to us to spread the word and promote the team. TALK THIS CLUB UP!!! .... We'vecome a very long way in a fairly short time and the point is ... we're far from being out the game yet. It's a fight to survive we need strong, positive character all round. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 So it's garbage that in the last few years St Johnstone have won a major cup and appeared in Europe and ICT have won a major cup and appeared in Europe and that Archie has had his budget cut, with all three clubs operating at similar crowd levels. It was you that questioned St Johnstone and ICT having sugar daddies!! I have never advocated that we live out with our means, but at some point the board have got to forward think, even just a little. It's a cert that Sevco will be back in the league next season and with games against them, Sellik, Aberdeen, Hearts and maybe Hibs, the crowd situation then looks up. If we go down this season and with the amount of players we have going out of contract at the end of the season, it could be a fair while before we are back in the top league It's garbage to suggest that the board hasn't backed the manager. It's utter sh*te to suggest he's had the "rug pulled from under him". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) It's garbage to suggest that the board hasn't backed the manager. It's utter sh*te to suggest he's had the "rug pulled from under him". So his budget hasn't been drastically cut. OK, can't be arsed arguing the point. You have your opinion and I have mine! Edited September 17, 2015 by Lindau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Relegation worries me when I think about the academy. As long as I've been old enough to attend Firhill, Thistle have been generally a mid to top second tier side, and that's where most of my happy memories are. In terms of the academy though, we could start to struggle in attracting the better players. Also, the sell on value of a championship player is almost certain to be less than that of a youngster in the top flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Relegation worries me when I think about the academy. As long as I've been old enough to attend Firhill, Thistle have been generally a mid to top second tier side, and that's where most of my happy memories are. In terms of the academy though, we could start to struggle in attracting the better players. Also, the sell on value of a championship player is almost certain to be less than that of a youngster in the top flight. Relegation worries us all. Not just Jags fans either. Right now, aberdeen and hearts are flying and unless we can get someone on HM revenue and customs' payroll again to take down the other half of the old firm franchise, for me it's argueably only these 3 clubs who's supporters will not have any lingering doubts that a bad run of injuries, suspensions or a plundered player could put them on the precipice of the play-off lottery. For sure, there is quantifiable differencies and there are clubs you would think will be top six and safe but on the other hand there are clubs who may have 50/50 seasons. For example, Ross county looked screwed a couple of years ago before xmas and D.U. were sitting pretty until celtic snapped up their best prospects. Whatever one might argue some of these clubs have strengthened year on year I'd still say we play in a 12 team league where, really , about 75% of clubs could not guarantee safety at the start of the season. I take your point about the academy. I agree relegation puts it in some jeopardy. However, to me was a shrewed move to get it established, and it is now established as a top rated Scottish school with the highest SFA endorsement, rather than take the gamble on investing in "complete" players to cement a top flight first team. It was initiated by the Weir's donation, but let's not forget that it has been a THISTLE project with Thistle people working hard to set it up and make it a success. We should be as proud of and grateful for their effort for the club as those who have secured our place in the SPL. .... Gerry Britton left his career in law to do it for the Jags ...... LEGEND! ... the KING of Spain, lives on and long may he reign over us. Future funding may not be ring fenced, however making hay while the sun shines, showing that we, our club, can run such an operation successfully is not so much judged on results. Yes, we must hope that Thistle weir does produce "the next Messi" but we will not be relegated if we don't. Furthermore if we can show that we can operate a proffessional, certified and credible youth scheme there may just be more enthusiasm for possible funders to support it financially than there might be to plough cash into a relegated first team. Edited September 17, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 The arguments about budgets mean absolutely nothing at the level we're playing at , it can work for you or against you but doesn't guarantee anything, the perfect examples being Motherwell finishing 2nd a couple of years ago and even the way Hamilton performed last year on a limited budget. Money can work against you if you look at the demise of Hibs who got relegated . The way forward for teams at our level is to to identify young players with potential and develop them like McNamara did with Odonnell and Sincy supplemented with under 20s. but time will tell whether Archie has the coaching ability to develop players , I sincerely hope he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 The arguments about budgets mean absolutely nothing at the level we're playing at. Like I say to everyone, you are entitled to your opinion, but not sure how you can say that when the manager has made it clear that the players he wanted to improve the team this season, were out with his budget. He has also said that he has a few players lined up for January, but doesn't know if he will be able to get them due to constraints on the budget. Budgets mean everything. I agree that having a bigger budget doesn't guarantee success, but it would go a long way to securing safety in most cases. Even this early in the season, relegation is rearing its ugly head and with about 90% of our players out of contract at the end of the season, we could be playing out with the top league for a few seasons. It's early days but a lot of the players brought in on the lower budget have still got plenty to prove, namely Amoo, Pogba, Miller. The only real success so far has been Cerny, though the two latest signings could join him! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 If we have a small budget then it has to be used wisely. The fact is that AA has squandered his resources on utter shite like Stevenson, Seabourne, Amoo, Pogba, Frans, Miller, Booth and Welsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 If we have a small budget then it has to be used wisely. The fact is that AA has squandered his resources on utter shite like Stevenson, Seabourne, Amoo, Pogba, Frans, Miller, Booth and Welsh. Seabourne and Amoo I'l;l give you. Frans has been exceptional, no idea why you are targeting him. Booth and Miller are up to the job. Stevo and Welsh have been injured, and in Stevo's case we did no have an option anyway, he's on two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Damn right it's a crisis. No bottle, no heart for the fight. Players aren't delivering and neither are the management team who are clearly incapable of motivating or changing things. We're going down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 in Stevo's case we did no have an option anyway, he's on two years. Doesn't mean that he should play every week though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Stevenson should have never been signed at all. We've only had a handful of good games out of him. Miller has been binned for Dumbuya. He's been shite. Booth is better than Miller but he's still been poor. I'd rate him about the same level as Jake Carroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshire jag Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Those who don't see this as a crisis are delusional.Time to take reality check. We haven't won a Arch since first Saturday in May, have failed to score in 7 out of 8 matches so far. This start is worse than Gerry Collins era.Unfortunately I don't have the answers but Mr Beattie and Maxi will soon know all about it when crowds go under 2,000. I know last year a big loss incurred and 24% decrease of crowds at Firhill but that was due to make up of the league,wouldhave been better this season if we had got off to a reasonable start. Not now though unless a miracle and we start winning. January window will be too late to strengthen squad as we be gone by then. I will still go to Firhill as I have been for over 50 years and will renew my season ticket next season come what may. So if anyone wants to call me panicker,not fussed, I am being realistic. AJ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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