What if they shut down the season?

[allyo]

15 minutes ago, delurker said:

Spot on; it has since been dragged out of them that ourselves and Motherwell were given advances on our fees in 16/17 (?).

So they could have and should have advanced everyone their monies due as per precedent.

They lied to everyone about this not being possible because they wanted to get this season killed off at any cost.

The gibbering about loans is a red herring from this and all the other issues about manipulation of the vote, etc.

No one was due anything unless the season was finished. And all this about league positions only changing one or two places. Complete rubbish. There was still potential for massive changes in lower league positions.

If they had paid out with potential for final league placings to change then there was real chance of teams being left owing the SPFL, and while there may have been ways to deall with this (one year deferment etc) the complexities have been oversimplified. It would have been a nightmare.

My own thought was that payments on current placings should be final, even if the season was completed, but even that could skew the season.

Where I think there was a real unfairness was calling the season while relegation was still the default. It should have been taken off the table. But the SPFL is a democracy and while many won't admit it, the vote actually suited the vast majority of clubs fine.

Edited May 4, 2020 by allyo

[Norgethistle]

3 minutes ago, Colognejag said:

If folk like us (expat home fans) could watch live again and others who cannot go signed up, then that could add to the figure. You would also get more away fans for a match than you normally get.

You would hope so. I really enjoyed Jagszone when we had the livestreams in premiership. Even the commentary for away games was good quality then, last season and this it seems to have dropped. Cuts out, doesn't start etc. If we were to do this we'd need to do it right or it wouldn't work. Also somehow stop someone copying and re-streaming for free

[jaf]

24 minutes ago, delurker said:

Spot on; it has since been dragged out of them that ourselves and Motherwell were given advances on our fees in 16/17 (?).

So they could have and should have advanced everyone their monies due as per precedent.

They lied to everyone about this not being possible because they wanted to get this season killed off at any cost.

The gibbering about loans is a red herring from this and all the other issues about manipulation of the vote, etc.

Loans were mentioned by Rangers. And us in our legal opinion.

They were not considered by SPFL (rightly) and they have not been putting that red herring into public domain, others have been.

Whatever you call it, I still think the situation of two clubs (underwritten by a bigger club) is very different to the whole league being in receipt of 'advance payments'.

 

 

[Dick Dastardly]

15 minutes ago, allyo said:

No one was due anything unless the season was finished. And all this about league positions only changing one or two places. Complete rubbish. There was still potential for massive changes in lower league positions.

If they had paid out with potential for final league placings to change then there was real chance of teams being left owing the SPFL, and while there may have been ways to deall with this (one year deferment etc) the complexities have been oversimplified. It would have been a nightmare.

My own thought was that payments on current placings should be final, even if the season was completed, but even that could skew the season.

Where I think there was a real unfairness was calling the season while relegation was still the default. It should have been taken off the table. But the SPFL is a democracy and while many won't admit it, the vote actually suited the vast majority of clubs fine.

I think there was a suggestion for pay out out on lowest possible league placing, then top up when final places were known. I think that could have worked.

At the end of the day it was all academic as there was never much prospect of completing the season and so our 10th place was always going to be the problem that we had no way of getting out of. As I mentioned earlier, there was no solution that didn't hurt someone, we were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

[gianlucatoni]

18 hours ago, scotty said:

Just wait until the plans come out about how to pay for this pandemic. Will the call from business be for tax increases?

Read somewhere a week or two ago that the SNP were discussing abolishing the personal tax allowance (currently the first 12 5k of earnings), inreasing each tax band by up to an additional 8% & restri tions to 'other benefits' which was unspecified. 

Whether this  information was genuine or not is unclear. 

What us abundantly clear though is that when we do come out of this, it will be the ordinary punter on the street who has to bear the brunt  - another x? years of austerity for those lucky enough to still have a job. 

[jlsarmy]

6 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think there was a suggestion for pay out out on lowest possible league placing, then top up when final places were known. I think that could have worked.

At the end of the day it was all academic as there was never much prospect of completing the season and so our 10th place was always going to be the problem that we had no way of getting out of. As I mentioned earlier, there was no solution that didn't hurt someone, we were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

The Clubs who were affected most should have been liable for compensation packages to soften the blow of relegation, it just beggars belief from an organisation who are meant to look after their Clubs not to include that in the resolution.

[javeajag]

23 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

Read somewhere a week or two ago that the SNP were discussing abolishing the personal tax allowance (currently the first 12 5k of earnings), inreasing each tax band by up to an additional 8% & restri tions to 'other benefits' which was unspecified. 

Whether this  information was genuine or not is unclear. 

What us abundantly clear though is that when we do come out of this, it will be the ordinary punter on the street who has to bear the brunt  - another x? years of austerity for those lucky enough to still have a job. 

I think you can put that in the fake news drawer.....and Nicola sturgeon explicitly said last week that the cost of the virus should not lead to another round of austerity 

[Emsca]

5 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

If we can't play any more games then there are only 2 solutions. Current placings or Null and Void. Both hurt an equal number of teams unless there is some sort of reconstruction of the leagues, which is also going to hurt some teams. 

it should be null and void then.

[Emsca]

5 hours ago, allyo said:

We played enough games that an average is a pretty valid measure.

To be honest I think this is clutching at straws. QoS got more points than us and more points per game than us, and at the time when football stopped (which no one could control) their record was, by any measure, superior to ours.

Of course it isn't ideal but that is hardly the point right now.

So what is the point right now. Given this is football forum.?

I fully appreciate there are bigger more cobncerning things happening in the world.

 

[Dick Dastardly]

5 minutes ago, Emsca said:

it should be null and void then.

Putting on Devil's Advocate hat

Why ? Dundee Utd and Cove were both on the brink of winning their leagues. Why should they suffer ?

[allyo]

1 hour ago, Emsca said:

So what is the point right now. Given this is football forum.?

I fully appreciate there are bigger more cobncerning things happening in the world.

 

The point is trying to find the best solution not an ideal one. So as I say, finding something ideal is not the point.

[javeajag]

players tested in Germany 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52495325

[javeajag]

Spain hoping to start playing next month 

https://plazadeportiva.valenciaplaza.com/tebas-esperamos-comenzar-a-jugar-en-junio-y-terminar-temporada-este-verano

[Jordanhill Jag]

20 hours ago, javeajag said:

I understand that  but to argue that business in general shouldn’t have higher taxes means either austerity or higher personal taxation so the poorest pay while large companies don’t ? Not on 

Pretty Much every Business is going to take a Massive Hit - So its complete nonsense to suggest that the solution is to increase Tax on Business - Businesses need to be encouraged to keep Trading - Keep Making Profits - Keep employing People - the Challange is Mass Unemployment thats what will kill the Economy 

Yes there will be Tax increases  however the concept that Poor People are over burdened again is nonsense - the Rate at which People start paying Tax at has been increasing steadily - Its simply increase VAT on Booze -Fags- Big Cars - Sugary Food and Drink - there are lots of things that can be increased that are wat to Cheap - and the No1 that we can start on  is Alcohol its far to Cheap - 

The Business Sector that has to be targeted are the Tech & other  Companies who domicile in Ireland  and pay next to No UK Tax - whilst having the bulk of there Sales here 

You target the UK Businesses who are already struggling - you will kill them off        

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, javeajag said:

I think you can put that in the fake news drawer.....and Nicola sturgeon explicitly said last week that the cost of the virus should not lead to another round of austerity 

Like she has any say on any level - the UK Govt is paying every penny of Covid 19 including the £43 MN for the Hospital at the SECC 

Scotland Runs a Fiscal deficit of £12BN each Year - which would have been larger ( even without Covid 19 ) due to the collapse in Oil Prices - there will be Austerity and it will take Years to recover - thats just an Economic Fact - to suggest otherwise is the usual SNP petty Point Scoring - so they can blame the UK Govt 

  

[Norgethistle]

10 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Like she has any say on any level - the UK Govt is paying every penny of Covid 19 including the £43 MN for the Hospital at the SECC 

Scotland Runs a Fiscal deficit of £12BN each Year - which would have been larger ( even without Covid 19 ) due to the collapse in Oil Prices - there will be Austerity and it will take Years to recover - thats just an Economic Fact - to suggest otherwise is the usual SNP petty Point Scoring - so they can blame the UK Govt 

  

Exactly and the fact they haven’t passed on the full rates rebate in Scotland (per business instead of per property in rest of UK), will come back to bite.

If UK comes out of lockdown in say 2 weeks yet Sturgeon decides to stay in lockdown Westminster will take up the tab

[jaf]

2 hours ago, javeajag said:

I think you can put that in the fake news drawer.....and Nicola sturgeon explicitly said last week that the cost of the virus should not lead to another round of austerity 

What she says and what she will have to do are two entirely different things. 

Austerity has been used as a political word. Its not austerity if you are still borrowing money to service the debt.

The true definition of austerity is coming, and there is nothing the FM can do that will stop it.

All in my very humble opinion of course!

 

[scotty]

22 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Like she has any say on any level - the UK Govt is paying every penny of Covid 19 including the £43 MN for the Hospital at the SECC 

Scotland Runs a Fiscal deficit of £12BN each Year - which would have been larger ( even without Covid 19 ) due to the collapse in Oil Prices - there will be Austerity and it will take Years to recover - thats just an Economic Fact - to suggest otherwise is the usual SNP petty Point Scoring - so they can blame the UK Govt

Even with your twist on the facts this is probably as good an argument for self-determination as I've ever heard! 

[javeajag]

26 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Pretty Much every Business is going to take a Massive Hit - So its complete nonsense to suggest that the solution is to increase Tax on Business - Businesses need to be encouraged to keep Trading - Keep Making Profits - Keep employing People - the Challange is Mass Unemployment thats what will kill the Economy 

Yes there will be Tax increases  however the concept that Poor People are over burdened again is nonsense - the Rate at which People start paying Tax at has been increasing steadily - Its simply increase VAT on Booze -Fags- Big Cars - Sugary Food and Drink - there are lots of things that can be increased that are wat to Cheap - and the No1 that we can start on  is Alcohol its far to Cheap - 

The Business Sector that has to be targeted are the Tech & other  Companies who domicile in Ireland  and pay next to No UK Tax - whilst having the bulk of there Sales here 

You target the UK Businesses who are already struggling - you will kill them off        

Ok

I never said the only solution was to increase business taxation but it is one part of the solution and they can’t be exempt particularly large companies.....taxing multi nationals correctly is a must 

the average annual salary in the U.K. is c£30k a year not  much higher than ten years ago highlighting the fact that the U.K. is a low wage low productivity economy 

your consumption tax increase suggestions are at best marginal 

It’s  also time for a wealth tax for the super rich 

 

[javeajag]

27 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Like she has any say on any level - the UK Govt is paying every penny of Covid 19 including the £43 MN for the Hospital at the SECC 

Scotland Runs a Fiscal deficit of £12BN each Year - which would have been larger ( even without Covid 19 ) due to the collapse in Oil Prices - there will be Austerity and it will take Years to recover - thats just an Economic Fact - to suggest otherwise is the usual SNP petty Point Scoring - so they can blame the UK Govt 

  

Ok typical unionist scaremongering......the U.K. deficit as can only be one deficit in one country is created by the U.K. govt nit Scotland the ludicrous numbers are explained here and even the £12m figure you quote is wrong 

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

[javeajag]

21 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Exactly and the fact they haven’t passed on the full rates rebate in Scotland (per business instead of per property in rest of UK), will come back to bite.

If UK comes out of lockdown in say 2 weeks yet Sturgeon decides to stay in lockdown Westminster will take up the tab

You do realise Scotland isn’t an independent country ?

[jaf]

1 minute ago, javeajag said:

Ok

I never said the only solution was to increase business taxation but it is one part of the solution and they can’t be exempt particularly large companies.....taxing multi nationals correctly is a must 

the average annual salary in the U.K. is c£30k a year not  much higher than ten years ago highlighting the fact that the U.K. is a low wage low productivity economy 

your consumption tax increase suggestions are at best marginal 

It’s  also time for a wealth tax for the super rich 

 

The thing is this is entirely non-discriminatory in its impact on the economy

People who have built up and run perfectly good businesses paying large amounts of tax are as likely to lose them as people on minimum wages are as likely to lose their jobs.

We are truly all in it together. And in recognising that, one needs to understand that even if you tax  those earning over £150,000 at 80% (in Scotland at least) you will not come close to paying for this even without the inevitable downturn in wealth creation, so the tax the rich rhetoric just wont work here. We need wealth creators and productive important workers to join together in pulling the economy out of this. On the way past, we will all pay more tax. And government cannot escape either, it must take a share of the pain, and I expect to see a shrinking of big government round the globe. Political philosophies aside, Scotland is supremely well placed to demonstrate that with an agile shrunken state. An opportunity to be an enlightened state and the economic version of New Zealand in dealing with this crisis from hereon.

 

[javeajag]

1 minute ago, jaf said:

The thing is this is entirely non-discriminatory in its impact on the economy

People who have built up and run perfectly good businesses paying large amounts of tax are as likely to lose them as people on minimum wages are as likely to lose their jobs.

We are truly all in it together. And in recognising that, one needs to understand that even if you tax  those earning over £150,000 at 80% (in Scotland at least) you will not come close to paying for this even without the inevitable downturn in wealth creation, so the tax the rich rhetoric just wont work here. We need wealth creators and productive important workers to join together in pulling the economy out of this. On the way past, we will all pay more tax. And government cannot escape either, it must take a share of the pain, and I expect to see a shrinking of big government round the globe. Political philosophies aside, Scotland is supremely well placed to demonstrate that with an agile shrunken state. An opportunity to be an enlightened state and the economic version of New Zealand in dealing with this crisis from hereon.

 

I don’t disagree with this and I was really looking at large  and multi nationals as well as the tax avoidance group group ....not small and medium sized U.K. businesses .....it takes the biscuit when Branson who tried to stop Flybe getting govt aid now asks for state aid for Virgin Atlantic even though they avoid tax in the U.K. and he has t laid any personal tax here for decades in that sense we are not all in it together 

my foucus in the super rich area the multi millionaires taxing the 16000 people who earn over £150000 might make you feel better but it doesn’t really eat into the problem 
 

Scotland does have an opportunity to do things differently 

[gianlucatoni]

3 hours ago, javeajag said:

I think you can put that in the fake news drawer.....and Nicola sturgeon explicitly said last week that the cost of the virus should not lead to another round of austerity 

Australia planning sweeping changes to payroll tax & stamp duty (Sydney Morning Herald) - I would think it likely the working person here will be getting pumped & not in a good way. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by gianlucatoni

[javeajag]

4 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

Australia planning sweeping changes to payroll tax & stamp duty (Sydney Morning Herald) - I would think it likely the working person here will be getting pumped & not in a good way. 

You could be right ......both U.K. and Australia run by conservatives