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javeajag

McCall and Next Season....

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I think you can praise both the youth system and management re Penrice. There was considerable improvement thru the years in his performances in youth teams. Praise tho' to the management (primarily Archie) in the timing and club selection of his loan spells.  

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12 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Not for Partick Thistle it doesn't!! 

Watch Penrice develop! 

The academy is not all about developing players for the Thistle first team

My nephew is currently part of the Man Utd under 10's set up and I was chatting to one of his coaches who said they had no expectation that any of this group would ever play for United. However what they are doing is

  • creating the next generation of supporter. George was a Liverpool fan, but is now United to his core.
  • spreading the brand. Both in playing games and with all the kit he is given, just playing with his mates
  • Charitable work. It keeps the kids fit and gives them some sort of structure for how they should behave
  • If just one player makes it to professional level, even if not at United, The fee would more than pay for the training of the year group
  • It gives senior players looking to get into coaching a place to start to see if it is suitable for them.

Basically the scheme costs United absolutely nothing to run, but benefits the kids that come through the scheme. I know that United's set up will be on a different scale to ours, but I expect that once set up, the economics will be very similar. As for Hendry, Nesbit and O'Donnell, their inclusion in Scotland squads can only help the reputation of our youth structure and bring more kids into the Thistle family.

(And George Meachin is going to become United's first choice keeper and keep me in the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed)

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I might be wrong, but my recollection of Hendry was that he had just broken through to the first team, when we were offered a transfer fee which we accepted. Fitzpatrick and Lindsay also commanded a fee (as has Penrice effectively). Lindsay, Penrice and O'Donnell have made a significant contribution to our first team.

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13 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

The academy is not all about developing players for the Thistle first team

My nephew is currently part of the Man Utd under 10's set up and I was chatting to one of his coaches who said they had no expectation that any of this group would ever play for United. However what they are doing is

  • creating the next generation of supporter. George was a Liverpool fan, but is now United to his core.
  • spreading the brand. Both in playing games and with all the kit he is given, just playing with his mates
  • Charitable work. It keeps the kids fit and gives them some sort of structure for how they should behave
  • If just one player makes it to professional level, even if not at United, The fee would more than pay for the training of the year group
  • It gives senior players looking to get into coaching a place to start to see if it is suitable for them.

Basically the scheme costs United absolutely nothing to run, but benefits the kids that come through the scheme. I know that United's set up will be on a different scale to ours, but I expect that once set up, the economics will be very similar. As for Hendry, Nesbit and O'Donnell, their inclusion in Scotland squads can only help the reputation of our youth structure and bring more kids into the Thistle family.

(And George Meachin is going to become United's first choice keeper and keep me in the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed)

Agree with all this. I would go one stage further and say that some clubs make money out of their youth academies.

Where I live Sevco get a lot of the local boys into their academy at Murray park. Charge them for membership and because they think they are on the pathway to playing for the blue arse cheek the parents won't say no and the kid will never want to leave.

Unfortunately it has a negative consequence that all the decent local players sign up, Sevco tell them they can't play for any other team and that means they don't get enough game time to develop and perhaps find a professionional club further down the leagues. You also see quite a number of the kids paying less time to their school work because they think a career as an international footballer is now theirs.

Sevco are not alone and I would imagine that if I stayed closer to the green arse cheek I would see a similar tale in a different colour.

I would like to think that all the football acadamies were telling all the parents and their kids the real purpose of the acadamies as per your bullet poiints and how realistic it was for their kid to get anywhere near the proffessional level but I think the clubs are starting to see this as revenue generating with summer camps and other spins offs appearing.

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38 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

I might be wrong, but my recollection of Hendry was that he had just broken through to the first team, when we were offered a transfer fee which we accepted. Fitzpatrick and Lindsay also commanded a fee (as has Penrice effectively). Lindsay, Penrice and O'Donnell have made a significant contribution to our first team.

Believe you're spot on. In fact if memory serves me well (doesn't usually) Hendry only got his competitive game time thru injury to Frans(?). Otherwise could just as easily been transferred without playing. Good point re Penrice effectively commanding a fee. Something that may be overlooked in the future.

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8 hours ago, scotty said:

 

Says more about our first team coaching regimes over the years than our youth system.

Hmmm.  Perhaps but perhaps its transition coaching (for want of a better term)  that we get wrong, that is developing the young player who is ready skill wise and even physically but needs to be right mentally to make it as a first team player.  I know it's more than that but I think you know what I mean. Of course fact we are so often in a position where we're nervous about blooding youngsters doesn't help.

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3 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Believe you're spot on. In fact if memory serves me well (doesn't usually) Hendry only got his competitive game time thru injury to Frans(?). Otherwise could just as easily been transferred without playing. Good point re Penrice effectively commanding a fee. Something that may be overlooked in the future.

I seem to recall that Hendry and Lindsay played together for a few games before Hendry got transferred and this was down to injuries to defenders.  Long term injury to someone I can't recall who led to Lindsay getting a lot of game time and the chance to really develop.

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4 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

The academy is not all about developing players for the Thistle first team

My nephew is currently part of the Man Utd under 10's set up and I was chatting to one of his coaches who said they had no expectation that any of this group would ever play for United. However what they are doing is

  • creating the next generation of supporter. George was a Liverpool fan, but is now United to his core.
  • spreading the brand. Both in playing games and with all the kit he is given, just playing with his mates
  • Charitable work. It keeps the kids fit and gives them some sort of structure for how they should behave
  • If just one player makes it to professional level, even if not at United, The fee would more than pay for the training of the year group
  • It gives senior players looking to get into coaching a place to start to see if it is suitable for them.

Basically the scheme costs United absolutely nothing to run, but benefits the kids that come through the scheme. I know that United's set up will be on a different scale to ours, but I expect that once set up, the economics will be very similar. As for Hendry, Nesbit and O'Donnell, their inclusion in Scotland squads can only help the reputation of our youth structure and bring more kids into the Thistle family.

(And George Meachin is going to become United's first choice keeper and keep me in the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed)

I am sure at the very least that this will be a great experience for your nephew. I remember hearing when Mason Greenwood made his debut for Manchester United that they had a player come through from their academy or youth system every season since the mid sixties, quite a record. Good luck to your nephew. You might end up being in the prawn sandwich brigade.

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49 minutes ago, Mr Bunny said:

I seem to recall that Hendry and Lindsay played together for a few games before Hendry got transferred and this was down to injuries to defenders.  Long term injury to someone I can't recall who led to Lindsay getting a lot of game time and the chance to really develop.

Just checked. Frans got sent off at NDP resulting in Stevenson being subbed for Hendry. Jack went on to play in the next three games (starting two) then offski. I think Lindsay played on his weaker side alongside Seagrove whilst Frans did most of the bench warming. Don't think long term injury played a part. Lindsay was just the preferred option.

Edited by lady-isobel-barnett

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7 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

The academy is not all about developing players for the Thistle first team

My nephew is currently part of the Man Utd under 10's set up and I was chatting to one of his coaches who said they had no expectation that any of this group would ever play for United. However what they are doing is

  • creating the next generation of supporter. George was a Liverpool fan, but is now United to his core.
  • spreading the brand. Both in playing games and with all the kit he is given, just playing with his mates
  • Charitable work. It keeps the kids fit and gives them some sort of structure for how they should behave
  • If just one player makes it to professional level, even if not at United, The fee would more than pay for the training of the year group
  • It gives senior players looking to get into coaching a place to start to see if it is suitable for them.

Basically the scheme costs United absolutely nothing to run, but benefits the kids that come through the scheme. I know that United's set up will be on a different scale to ours, but I expect that once set up, the economics will be very similar. As for Hendry, Nesbit and O'Donnell, their inclusion in Scotland squads can only help the reputation of our youth structure and bring more kids into the Thistle family.

(And George Meachin is going to become United's first choice keeper and keep me in the manner to which I'd like to become accustomed)

I really don't have a problem with any of the above as I understand there are wider social, economic and cultural/reputational issues associated to youth development. 

However all I am saying is that it would be good to see young players graduating through the academy to the first team on a regular basis. I see  nothing wrong with this given just about every Jags manager who remained in the post, except John Lambie, said young players were the future of the club! 

This has also been said by managers in other clubs as well. 

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Bannigan is still only 28. If he can avoid serious injury and stay in the kind of form he was showing in his best games this season, no reason why he can't be with us for a good few years yet.

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2 hours ago, elevenone said:

Terrific article. Hard to think of Bannigan as 28yrs old (young), as he has been around the Jags for what feels 100 years. 

Great servant and representative of the club! 

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Curious about the goalkeeper situation as McCall said he has one lined up on the update.

Nothing been said about Sneddon getting a new contract either, hopefully we don’t just punt him, if he has a keeper lined up and if we could get Wright back from Rangers on loan then maybe we could put Sneddon out on loan?

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1 minute ago, Thistle88 said:

Curious about the goalkeeper situation as McCall said he has one lined up on the update.

Nothing been said about Sneddon getting a new contract either, hopefully we don’t just punt him, if he has a keeper lined up and if we could get Wright back from Rangers on loan then maybe we could put Sneddon out on loan?

And if you were Sneddon, would you be interested in that sort of deal ?

I suspect that he is waiting to see if he has a better offer. 

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Just now, Dick Dastardly said:

And if you were Sneddon, would you be interested in that sort of deal ?

I suspect that he is waiting to see if he has a better offer. 

Possibly he’s still very young and could do with a loan for more experience?

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14 minutes ago, Thistle88 said:

Curious about the goalkeeper situation as McCall said he has one lined up on the update.

Nothing been said about Sneddon getting a new contract either, hopefully we don’t just punt him, if he has a keeper lined up and if we could get Wright back from Rangers on loan then maybe we could put Sneddon out on loan?

The other Question is and I don’t want to seem to harsh but is Sneddon good enough for the championship.  He made a few howlers and also some brilliant saves at league one, but we are going up a level and want to be challenging at the top. I’m not overly convinced.

Sneddon is undoubtedly a fans favourite and a popular player but that alone cannot be a reason for simply retaining the guy.  If for instance someone like Ross Doohan came along but Sneddon was only willing to stay on the guarantee that he be first choice and Doohan be second then unfortunately as popular as Sneddon might be - t hi is would in my opinion be completely the wrong decision to take.
If of course Sneddon is happy to remain as back up then that of course is a completely different situation but I have concerns that there are fans who really want us to hold onto him because of his length of service and his popularity rather than completely down to ability where I personally feel we can do better. 

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18 minutes ago, Thistle88 said:

 

Possibly he’s still very young and could do with a loan for more experience?

So we would sign him with a new contract so we can then loan him out?  Maybe but I’m not convinced that would be the best use of a budget particularly if we can get better such as potentially with someone like Doohan 

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Sneddon has been with Thistle since 2017, to date i have not been as impressed with him as others. I felt the first half of the season he looked a bit shaky/unsure. When he came back in the second half i felt he was more assured and played better, that could have been because the defence in front of him was better. Like @Third Lanark has said if we are looking to be up at the top end of the league we need a better/more consistent keeper as our first choice. The first thing that teams who are looking to do well need to sort out is the defence and the keeper is a very important part of that. Having been at Firhill for 4 years and never really been first choice keeper i don't know how Sneddon would feel facing another season as back up, if that is what his role would be.

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15 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

The other Question is and I don’t want to seem to harsh but is Sneddon good enough for the championship.  He made a few howlers and also some brilliant saves at league one, but we are going up a level and want to be challenging at the top. I’m not overly convinced.

Sneddon is undoubtedly a fans favourite and a popular player but that alone cannot be a reason for simply retaining the guy.  If for instance someone like Ross Doohan came along but Sneddon was only willing to stay on the guarantee that he be first choice and Doohan be second then unfortunately as popular as Sneddon might be - t hi is would in my opinion be completely the wrong decision to take.
If of course Sneddon is happy to remain as back up then that of course is a completely different situation but I have concerns that there are fans who really want us to hold onto him because of his length of service and his popularity rather than completely down to ability where I personally feel we can do better. 

Personally speaking I would  go with Sneddon signed as our player between the sticks rather than Doohan on loan.  Sneddon is young for a keeper and has made a few howlers but also some brilliant saves and for a good while had a iffy defence in front of him.  I suppose my fear with Sneddon  is we may have another Kevin Nisbet situation should we let him go.

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17 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

So we would sign him with a new contract so we can then loan him out?  Maybe but I’m not convinced that would be the best use of a budget particularly if we can get better such as potentially with someone like Doohan 

Well if McCall sees potential in him that he can improve after a loan spell then yes. If He has a number one lined up and we can get a goalkeeper on loan as a back up and get Sneddon regular football somewhere then it’s win win in my eyes. 

Sneddon has actually had same very steady games for us and like someone has mentioned our defence over the last few years has been awful.

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5 minutes ago, Thistle88 said:

Well if McCall sees potential in him that he can improve after a loan spell then yes. If He has a number one lined up and we can get a goalkeeper on loan as a back up and get Sneddon regular football somewhere then it’s win win in my eyes. 

Sneddon has actually had same very steady games for us and like someone has mentioned our defence over the last few years has been awful.

I certainly don’t deny he has had some very steady games.  But he has more than had a few howlers including this season when our defence has been better and that’s with us been in league one not the championship where the standard of opposition will be higher

Il certainly respect McCalls decision and if he stays good but if McCall doesn’t want to keep him then I won’t be overly bothered about him moving on.  As AJ says given he’s been here 4 years already I don’t think it’s entirely harsh to have hoped for more progress than have seen 

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There are a few issues around Sneddon. 

Firstly, his time as a Jag has mostly coincided with what can be described as a club in trouble! As with Penrice there was no one to 'look' after these young players in the way that Bannigan has said that Docherty and he 'talk' Lyon through a game. Can anyone blame Sneddon for being a slow developer when on the park he is virtually on his own! 

Secondly, I don't think it was a coincidence that in the second half of last season he actually looked more self assured and confident - who wouldn't playing behind Foster, Bell & Brownlie! 

Thirdly and IMO ghe answer for Sneddon is to stay at Firhill and fight for his place with another Championship level Keeper. Given his improved performances (not his length of service) in the second half of last season  I would start him in the new season as first choice Keeper. 

Finally, McCall has to make a decision about him. He either keeps Sneddon (because he believes he can make the grade) as the clear #1 or with an already proven Championship level keeper and he tells both he will play the form keeper! 

At 24 yrs and roughly 5 years service as a Jag signing him and then sending him out on loan to a League 1 or 2 club would, I think, be a negative move and demonstrate to all and sundry that we as a club have no confidence in the player. In addition a loan move would do nothing for Sneddon's confidence or self-esteem given he finished last season as our #1. 

If we are even thinking of thia loan move we should just release him! 

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11 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

There are a few issues around Sneddon. 

Firstly, his time as a Jag has mostly coincided with what can be described as a club in trouble! As with Penrice there was no one to 'look' after these young players in the way that Bannigan has said that Docherty and he 'talk' Lyon through a game. Can anyone blame Sneddon for being a slow developer when on the park he is virtually on his own! 

Secondly, I don't think it was a coincidence that in the second half of last season he actually looked more self assured and confident - who wouldn't playing behind Foster, Bell & Brownlie! 

Thirdly and IMO ghe answer for Sneddon is to stay at Firhill and fight for his place with another Championship level Keeper. Given his improved performances (not his length of service) in the second half of last season  I would start him in the new season as first choice Keeper. 

Finally, McCall has to make a decision about him. He either keeps Sneddon (because he believes he can make the grade) as the clear #1 or with an already proven Championship level keeper and he tells both he will play the form keeper! 

At 24 yrs and roughly 5 years service as a Jag signing him and then sending him out on loan to a League 1 or 2 club would, I think, be a negative move and demonstrate to all and sundry that we as a club have no confidence in the player. In addition a loan move would do nothing for Sneddon's confidence or self-esteem given he finished last season as our #1. 

If we are even thinking of thia loan move we should just release him! 

To be fair although he obviously can’t be on the park during games I would be expecting Kenny Arthur to play a large part in his development 

there is also the fact that literally these have been the first league games Lyon has ever played whereas we will be entering Sneddons 5th season with the club

Edited by Third Lanark

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