Club AGM

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

But you are allowed to count substantial six-figure income from unreliable and irregular events entirely outwith the board's control. 

[dl1971]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Im saying nothing of the sort 

To get a true picture comparing losses from previous Years in actual Trading Terms you have to remove TJF cash from the Calculation as its not generated by Trading and previous Board did not have this level of a Donation 

So in actual Business Trading we are still running at similar losses to previous Seasons of circa £300K 

TJF cash is giving a False Reading to the actual Financial Stats 

Money is money. Do we count income from the centenary club for example? Do we count 50/50 profits? Irrespective of views, surely the TFJ income stream is valued. You may view it as a donation. I view it as investing in the financial future of the club.  

[javeajag]

52 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

Money is money. Do we count income from the centenary club for example? Do we count 50/50 profits? Irrespective of views, surely the TFJ income stream is valued. You may view it as a donation. I view it as investing in the financial future of the club.  

To be fair I think JJ is saying ….

if you lose £300k in year one but reduce that to £150k it may appear you have improved things but when you add in the now £175k from TJF then the underlying business performance is basically the same .

[BowenBoys]

12 minutes ago, javeajag said:

To be fair I think JJ is saying ….

if you lose £300k in year one but reduce that to £150k it may appear you have improved things but when you add in the now £175k from TJF then the underlying business performance is basically the same .

Oh no, there are two of them now. JJ and jj

😊

[madcapmilkdrinker]

Given his vigorous prosecution of the case for venture capitalists to buy the club a few years back, the fact that JJ is now all about financial rigour and transparency amuses me no end.

[dl1971]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

To be fair I think JJ is saying ….

if you lose £300k in year one but reduce that to £150k it may appear you have improved things but when you add in the now £175k from TJF then the underlying business performance is basically the same .

I get that but equally I'd argue the money from TFJ ( aka the fans ) is good business, showing a positive relationship between the business and its customers. If that's not business related I don't know what is....

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

Given his vigorous prosecution of the case for venture capitalists to buy the club a few years back, the fact that JJ is now all about financial rigour and transparency amuses me no end.

So the option then was continue with the Board we had -or the Group that wanted to buy the Club - I had no faith in the Board at the time 

Colin Weir bought the Club and reinstalled the Board I had no faith in 

And oh look - the Fans are having protest marches to remove them - Oh look -we have a £600K Black Hole in the Accounts 

So it was the lesser of two evils as to the choice 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, dl1971 said:

I get that but equally I'd argue the money from TFJ ( aka the fans ) is good business, showing a positive relationship between the business and its customers. If that's not business related I don't know what is....

You need to Trade properly - the TJF Money should be used to give the Manager additional Funds beyond what he has

Because we are not breaking even as a Business in normal Trading - TJF money is simply reducing the Trading losses  

[dl1971]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

You need to Trade properly - the TJF Money should be used to give the Manager additional Funds beyond what he has

Because we are not breaking even as a Business in normal Trading - TJF money is simply reducing the Trading losses  

Yep. I understand that fundamental aim in the mid to long term for TFJ funding. In the short term I'd argue that money is spend in the most prioritised areas. We could argue endlessly what constitutes short, medium and long term financial planning, but the direction of travel since less than a year ago is far better than most of us could have imagined. Perhaps next year's accounts will evidence that improvement. If not this thread will make a lazurus like recovery. 

[ChiThistle]

So can these 8 pages be summed up as:

1) Ideally the prior year losses would be offset by a plan to reduce operating costs or increase revenue through “normal trading”.

2) JJ has not seen a comprehensive plan as outlined in #1 above.  It could be argued that one doesn’t exist.  Yet.  Hopefully.

3) The TJF money is good and valid, but it shouldn’t need to be used to paper over the aforementioned losses.  Those losses should be reduced through generation of increased “normal” (read: coming from operations) revenue or reduction in operating costs

4) The USA money is either highly welcome, or somewhat contentious, due to the urgent cash flow situation we were in and the issuance of shares/board position that accompany it.  Only a select few will know how truly bad things were that necessitated the decision, which hopefully will be a one-time only deal once the CTA is in place and beneficiaries are consulted on such matters going forward.

5) We all agree the toilets need fixing - first the women’s then the men’s.  LIB has been suspiciously quiet about the toilets while the menfolk fight this battle.  This underscores the forum power dynamic and indicates she’s really the one who runs things here.

Hopefully that all covers it and we can all go get a beer.  I’ll be back over in November around the US Thanksgiving holiday and will buy the first round.

[eljaggo]

For ****'s sake just stop this stupid shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, dl1971 said:

I get that but equally I'd argue the money from TFJ ( aka the fans ) is good business, showing a positive relationship between the business and its customers. If that's not business related I don't know what is....

Sure but the point that it shows no improvement in the rest of the business is worth looking at 

[Jaggernaut]

Deleted.

Edited January 17 by Jaggernaut

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, ChiThistle said:

So can these 8 pages be summed up as:

1) Ideally the prior year losses would be offset by a plan to reduce operating costs or increase revenue through “normal trading”.

2) JJ has not seen a comprehensive plan as outlined in #1 above.  It could be argued that one doesn’t exist.  Yet.  Hopefully.

3) The TJF money is good and valid, but it shouldn’t need to be used to paper over the aforementioned losses.  Those losses should be reduced through generation of increased “normal” (read: coming from operations) revenue or reduction in operating costs

4) The USA money is either highly welcome, or somewhat contentious, due to the urgent cash flow situation we were in and the issuance of shares/board position that accompany it.  Only a select few will know how truly bad things were that necessitated the decision, which hopefully will be a one-time only deal once the CTA is in place and beneficiaries are consulted on such matters going forward.

5) We all agree the toilets need fixing - first the women’s then the men’s.  LIB has been suspiciously quiet about the toilets while the menfolk fight this battle.  This underscores the forum power dynamic and indicates she’s really the one who runs things here.

Hopefully that all covers it and we can all go get a beer.  I’ll be back over in November around the US Thanksgiving holiday and will buy the first round.

Good job !

[Jaggernaut]

1 hour ago, eljaggo said:

For ****'s sake just stop this stupid shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, there's a persistent attention-seeker "at work."

[Jordanhill Jag]

32 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Good job !

Yip - agree with all that 😊

[javeajag]

Maybe a simple way to frame this would be …., should TJF funds c£175k be used :

1. to cover some or all the losses the club incurs in a financial year 

2. To provide the manager with additional funds to acquire players 

3. refurbish the ladies toilets ……

[Lenziejag]

Whatever happened to the £5M that Colin Weir gave to Three Black Cats to manage ? 

[scotty]

47 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Whatever happened to the £5M that Colin Weir gave to Three Black Cats to manage ? 

Wasn't that the money that bought the shares to be gifted to the fans' trust? Then there's management costs.

[Woodstock Jag]

57 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Whatever happened to the £5M that Colin Weir gave to Three Black Cats to manage ? 

It was £4.9 million (as a soft loan, for working capital) and it eroded as follows:

A few hundred grand went into activities preceding the acquisition of the Club (likely connected to the ill-fated training ground)

£1.3 million of it went into buying the majority shareholding in the Club (for which there will also have been, probably, six figure professional advisory and other costs)

£1.7 million of it went into buying the Main Stand and Bing from Firhill Developments Limited (plus advisory and other costs)

£800k of cash was burned through during the 2020-21 COVID season (of which at least £530k is explicitly recognised as having been committed to 3BC’s only subsidiary, the Football Club). Without those commitments, and without furlough and other grant income, the Club would have lost about £1 million that year.

Further professional advisory and other admin costs appear to have reduced the cash pot of 3BC further in 2021-22. This coincides with a season in which the Club had operating losses of more than £200k, but it also coincides with the transfer of the Main Stand and Bing back to the Club.

And now 3BC no longer exists, so we will never properly know its financial activity in 2022-23.

Edited January 19 by Woodstock Jag

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

It was £4.9 million (as a soft loan, for working capital) and it eroded as follows:

A few hundred grand went into activities preceding the acquisition of the Club (likely connected to the ill-fated training ground)

£1.3 million of it went into buying the majority shareholding in the Club (for which there will also have been, probably, six figure professional advisory and other costs)

£1.7 million of it went into buying the Main Stand and Bing from Firhill Developments Limited (plus advisory and other costs)

£800k of cash was burned through during the 2020-21 COVID season (of which at least £530k is explicitly recognised as having been committed to 3BC’s only subsidiary, the Football Club). Without those commitments, and without furlough and other grant income, the Club would have lost about £1 million that year.

Further professional advisory and other admin costs appear to have reduced the cash pot of 3BC further in 2021-22. This coincides with a season in which the Club had operating losses of more than £200k, but it also coincides with the transfer of the Main Stand and Bing back to the Club.

And now 3BC no longer exists, so we will never properly know its financial activity in 2022-23.

Kind of what I am getting at is, how much of the £1.3M and the £1.7M did the club see in cash. 

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

Kind of what I am getting at is, how much of the £1.3M and the £1.7M did the club see in cash. 

Zero.

The £1.3 million was the sum paid to existing shareholders to acquire the majority shareholding.

The £1.7 million was a sum paid to a property company for two bits of land, which were (after considerable delay) gifted back to the Club.

The Club did not receive any of the money given to the property company (despite being a shareholder in it) because the people who put the capital into the property company in the first place had a preferential distribution.

[jaggymct]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

Kind of what I am getting at is, how much of the £1.3M and the £1.7M did the club see in cash. 

I would guess at none it woudl have gone to shareholders and directors of Firhill Developments Limited

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Zero.

The £1.3 million was the sum paid to existing shareholders to acquire the majority shareholding.

The £1.7 million was a sum paid to a property company for two bits of land, which were (after considerable delay) gifted back to the Club.

The Club did not receive any of the money given to the property company (despite being a shareholder in it) because the people who put the capital into the property company in the first place had a preferential distribution.

I guess the club didn’t see much of the other £1.9M either.

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

I guess the club didn’t see much of the other £1.9M either.

About £300k of it was gone before 3BC bought the Club anyway. And about £200k of it was sitting in the company at year end 2021-22 (plus some non-cash assets).

I’d guess a significant six figure sum has also gone on duties, professional services and other administrative fees.

And as I said earlier, at least £530k went into the Club directly in the 2020-21 season. But the Club accounts (to me) aren’t entirely clear exactly how that money went in and was accounted for at the Thistle end.