Livvy v Jags

[Lenziejag]

15 hours ago, laukat said:

If it was only Falkirk that was ahead of us I would also say you have a point but we were miles away from Livingston. Over the 2 games against them they looked much more street wise and organised. At no point this season have we performed like a team capable of a promotion push and we are almost halfway through.

Also if Doolan was a new appointment this season I would agree but he's now had almost 2 full seasons. Last season we had a budget that broadly matched our finishing position so Doolan deserved another season. This season I would be surprised if Doolan's budget isn't in the top 2 in the league however I doubt we will finish in the top 2.

We do tend to give academy players longer than we should before deciding they're not good enough and it feels like we are wishing Doolan to be a success because he scored a lot of goals for us as a player rather than looking at what he is actually capable of as a manager.

If promotion isn't possible under Doolan this season then its hard to imagine when it ever will be, so if he can't close the gap to the top in the next few weeks I think we have to say its not working and move on. If for arguments sake he lost 2 of the 3 next games he should be gone in the same way McCall was binned after losing to Hamilton and Cove.

 

There is no doubt the start to the season has made the situation precarious and we have to find a way to start winning on plastic, getting results against Falkirk and Livi and keep up our good record on grass. 
And, if for arguments sake we win our next 3 games, will you still be thinking he should be going ?

[laukat]

3 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

There is no doubt the start to the season has made the situation precarious and we have to find a way to start winning on plastic, getting results against Falkirk and Livi and keep up our good record on grass. 
And, if for arguments sake we win our next 3 games, will you still be thinking he should be going ?

Our next 3 games are Airdrie, Queens Park and Morton. If we have any hope of getting in the top 2 places then we need full points from those games. If he does then then he should continue

Realistically if we got 6 or 7 points then we won't be closing any ground on the top 2 and we will at best be around the same position with less than half the season to go.

So counter questions - if we are still 7 points off Livingston and 9 points off Falkirk (I'm assuming we win our game in hand) at the end of December do you accept we are unlikely to get promotion and we should be looking at replacing the manager? If the gap has grown by end of December is that not time to immediately change course?

 

[Jaggernaut]

I'm always kind of bemused by the "Sack the manager" calls that go up after a couple of bad results.... often (or even) after a string of excellent results.... these days. It's as if 100% success 100% of the time or something very near it is the only thing that should allow football managers to continue to try to get the best performances for their club and its supporters. No tolerance of dips in form, either by individual players or even groups of players; no, it's the manager's fault, or he should have anticipated the howling performances, or hooked players earlier.....; no tolerance of bad refereeing decisions, or injuries, or bad breaks on the field, or unexpectedly good performances by the opposition.

Nope, "You win the big one next time, or you're out!" is the mantra of some regarding the manager. And that will lead to what?: Somebody else getting another "cushy number" probably having been sacked because of failing to deliver the top prize or achieving "satisfactory progress" at his previous clubs! 

Thinking back to earlier years (let's say the 60s): Thistle usually never qualified for Europe (with the one exception... then even so, they didn't go far; in the 70s too), they never really challenged for the league title, or a Scottish or League Cup. They perennially hung around mid-table safety/mediocrity. But I don't recall any outraged clamour for sacking the manager (back then fans' opinions were largely limited to comments shouted towards the dugouts as supporters gathered to leave at the terracing exits; no online, immediate diffusion of one's discontent back then).

Sadly, for most of the last four decades we've been a second-tier (occasionally better, occasionally worse) football team. Achieving the play-offs in the past couple of seasons has been brilliant, albeit heartbreaking. In my opinion we got blatantly robbed (cheated?) in Dingwall because of a refereeing decision. I think we might qualify again for the play-offs this season, but again will probably fall short (and perhaps even against Livi too, Aaaargh!). So, should the manager be sacked? And if that happens, and the next one fails to get us up (or even into the play-offs), how long does he get? If he fails, what was the point of sacking the previous one, who was presumably learning and developing new strategies?

How many new managers o people want, and how often?

Brought to you by some cheap, imported but very drinkable white wine (Chile, I think.). 

[Bobbyhouston]

On 12/15/2024 at 10:11 AM, javeajag said:

Can’t help thinking he needs both a fitness coach and a sports psychologist!

Can’t help thinking he need Scottish slimmers and a gastric band 

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, laukat said:

Our next 3 games are Airdrie, Queens Park and Morton. If we have any hope of getting in the top 2 places then we need full points from those games. If he does then then he should continue

Realistically if we got 6 or 7 points then we won't be closing any ground on the top 2 and we will at best be around the same position with less than half the season to go.

So counter questions - if we are still 7 points off Livingston and 9 points off Falkirk (I'm assuming we win our game in hand) at the end of December do you accept we are unlikely to get promotion and we should be looking at replacing the manager? If the gap has grown by end of December is that not time to immediately change course?

 

If we get 6 or 7 points from our 3 games there’s a decent chance we will be making ground on at least one of the 3 teams above us. Livingston and Ayr play each other and Falkirk have got a game against Dunfermline. 
If the gap has grown by how much ? 1 or 2 points - no; more - but it depends on the circumstances like more injuries or sendings off.

[dl1971]

40 minutes ago, Bobbyhouston said:

Can’t help thinking he need Scottish slimmers and a gastric band 

I don't know why Bobby but in my mind your a guy who likes a donut or two. Or is my imagination playing tricks? 

[dl1971]

2 hours ago, laukat said:

Our next 3 games are Airdrie, Queens Park and Morton. If we have any hope of getting in the top 2 places then we need full points from those games. If he does then then he should continue

Realistically if we got 6 or 7 points then we won't be closing any ground on the top 2 and we will at best be around the same position with less than half the season to go.

So counter questions - if we are still 7 points off Livingston and 9 points off Falkirk (I'm assuming we win our game in hand) at the end of December do you accept we are unlikely to get promotion and we should be looking at replacing the manager? If the gap has grown by end of December is that not time to immediately change course?

 

That could still be the case if we win all three games. So you would be questioning the manager when we in theory have went w 7 l1 d 1. Really? Think I have my sums right. 

[fenski]

3 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

I'm always kind of bemused by the "Sack the manager" calls that go up after a couple of bad results.... often (or even) after a string of excellent results.... these days. It's as if 100% success 100% of the time or something very near it is the only thing that should allow football managers to continue to try to get the best performances for their club and its supporters. No tolerance of...

Social media is undoubtedly a big factor. The signal to noise ratio is dreadful. Volatility created by viral internet driven pile ons. Tolerance, fairness, respect, common sense and pragmatism are less and less in evidence.

You even get threads where people think it's reasonable to make snider comments about a player's weight while making reference to gastric bands. It's all a bit of an unmoderated cesspit.

[Jag]

On 12/15/2024 at 7:06 PM, Jordanhill Jag said:

If the Player isn't interested in his Fitness & Weight - there is Nothing the Club can do - that's got to come from him 

There absolutely is something the club (manager) can do. Stop putting him in the starting eleven.

As I've said before, as long as Fitzpatrick gets away with it, he's not likely to do anything about his fitness and weight issues. Doolan has to have the balls to drop him - and should have done so a long time ago.

 

[Jag]

23 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

What is clear is that there are posters judging Doolan’s whole season on those opening few games and ignoring that even with the defeat on Friday night we are still top of the form charts over 6 games and within a point or two of Falkirk in the last 8 and 10 games. This season isn’t even 1/2 way done yet and people have handed it to Falkirk. Better teams than them go from being unbeatable to a total slump.

I don't think Falkirk will win the league, I'm pretty sure Livingston will beat them to title.

I know what you are saying about the form guide and, until Friday night, things had looked to improve slightly. However, I think over the season as a whole we've looked pretty dreadful for the most part, and it's not been very exciting. That's certainly my view on things. We're going to have to go on some crazy run of results to compete for the league and we are looking nowhere near good enough to do that.

[Jag]

22 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And if they slump - Ayr will step in - the Board sacked McCall in pretty much identical circumstances 

I'm not calling for Dools to be sacked - but the Club created a precedent 

Our Signings have been Poor - and the fact we have unfit Players is for me a massive issue - Fitness is the easiest thing in Football to address 

No Professional Football Player should be carrying too much weight or be unfit - No matter the level your Playing at  

 

100% this. Any able bodied person is able to get fit.

The players should be the fittest they possibly can be. If they aren't, you have to ask the reason why.

[dl1971]

12 minutes ago, Jag said:

100% this. Any able bodied person is able to get fit.

The players should be the fittest they possibly can be. If they aren't, you have to ask the reason why.

I don't think our problem is fitness ( bar one player ).  It's quality and skill, that's more the issue. 

[Jag]

59 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

I don't think our problem is fitness ( bar one player ).  It's quality and skill, that's more the issue. 

I think there is one in particular, who relies on pace, that is further away from where he should be than anybody else. However, the squad as a whole isn't fit enough. Teams run all over us. 

It's amazing how much more quality and skill a player has when he can get to the ball quicker, have better reactions, gain another half yard of pace and not be so fatigued during a match that it leads to mistakes.

[dl1971]

1 hour ago, Jag said:

I think there is one in particular, who relies on pace, that is further away from where he should be than anybody else. However, the squad as a whole isn't fit enough. Teams run all over us. 

It's amazing how much more quality and skill a player has when he can get to the ball quicker, have better reactions, gain another half yard of pace and not be so fatigued during a match that it leads to mistakes.

Is there any statistical evidence to show the team is less fit than others? I don't know either way. I seem to remember under mccalls tenure we were being told ( by fans ) we were not fit enough. Also in the season when we almost/should have went up, we were quite clearly a very fit team ( or arguably just better ), so why would that change under the same manager? I'd say it's more likely the personnel rather than the training regime. 

[elevenone]

Livi trounce Airdrie 3-0 away tonight.  Lets hope Airdire’s run continues on Sat.

[JAG1970]

1 hour ago, elevenone said:

Livi trounce Airdrie 3-0 away tonight.  Lets hope Airdire’s run continues on Sat.

Astonishingly bad run they are on… one league victory in 17 matches and that was way back on the 3rd August! 

[laukat]

7 hours ago, dl1971 said:

That could still be the case if we win all three games. So you would be questioning the manager when we in theory have went w 7 l1 d 1. Really? Think I have my sums right. 

If we win our 3 games the gap won't have grown. Now that Livingston have won tonight my estimate of needing 6/7 points from the next 3 already looks an underestimate.

Form guides are interesting but ultimately a manager is judged on meeting his objectives. This season, from everything I have read, the objective was promotion. Winning the league already looks remote. Getting through the playoffs is unlikely and really unlikely unless we finish 2nd. When you add that the budget Doolan has been given and the income lost due to early cup exits we really need to be finishing 2nd minimum.

The managers record for this season is 

P16 W7 D5 L4 

If he gets 6 points it will be

P19 W9 D5 L5

AT which point we could be 10 points behind Livingston and 12 behind Falkirk. Does that look like we are capable of meeting this seasons objectives? Do we really expect Doolan to make a better fist of it next season when his budget will be less in cash terms bit all less competitive relative to other teams in the league ? If not is not time to look elsewhere?

 

[CotterJag]

I'll post this here, as don't want to jinx the upcoming 'new' match thread but this league isn't over for us by a long shot.

Anyone who thinks it is, can't understand the stats and doesn't know Thistle.

I said a while back that if we get to within 7 points of top by the new year and I think we might, then it's game on.

There can be no debate about how plastic pitches ruin any game and are a massive advantage to the individual clodhoppers that play on them day in day out.

They are not suitable for football teams and should be banned at all bar the non-league levels. I recorded the Livi game and watched it on x3, as couldn't stand watching it. The colour alone was shocking to my brain.

GTTF.  

 

[jlsarmy]

5 hours ago, Jag said:

There absolutely is something the club (manager) can do. Stop putting him in the starting eleven.

As I've said before, as long as Fitzpatrick gets away with it, he's not likely to do anything about his fitness and weight issues. Doolan has to have the balls to drop him - and should have done so a long time ago.

 

The trouble was injuries to Mackay and Lawless hampered things and he couldn’t drop Fitzpatrick, now some of the injuries have cleared up , I think a spell on the bench won’t do Fitzpatrick any harm

Think we’re doing Doolan a bit of a disservice, as in the recent examples of dropping senior players like Muirhead, Bannigan or Lee Ashcroft 

I’m sure there is a steely side to Doolan that his public persona doesn’t show .

[elevenone]

8 hours ago, JAG1970 said:

Astonishingly bad run they are on… one league victory in 17 matches and that was way back on the 3rd August! 

Indeed especially when you consider last season McCabe was the golden goose linked to various jobs.  That said if there is ever one team to let a struggling mob break their run step forward Thistle.  I’m still recovering from Cowdenbeath in cup many moons ago.  

[dl1971]

9 hours ago, laukat said:

If we win our 3 games the gap won't have grown. Now that Livingston have won tonight my estimate of needing 6/7 points from the next 3 already looks an underestimate.

Form guides are interesting but ultimately a manager is judged on meeting his objectives. This season, from everything I have read, the objective was promotion. Winning the league already looks remote. Getting through the playoffs is unlikely and really unlikely unless we finish 2nd. When you add that the budget Doolan has been given and the income lost due to early cup exits we really need to be finishing 2nd minimum.

The managers record for this season is 

P16 W7 D5 L4 

If he gets 6 points it will be

P19 W9 D5 L5

AT which point we could be 10 points behind Livingston and 12 behind Falkirk. Does that look like we are capable of meeting this seasons objectives? Do we really expect Doolan to make a better fist of it next season when his budget will be less in cash terms bit all less competitive relative to other teams in the league ? If not is not time to look elsewhere?

 

Irrespective of points and league position, we have a budget deficit. How would you fund a new manager and pay of Doolan? Anyway if we win all 3 games the picture may be a bit better. As always impossible to tell. Bottom line is the pressure on the manager is rising. 

[JAG1970]

1 hour ago, elevenone said:

Indeed especially when you consider last season McCabe was the golden goose linked to various jobs.  That said if there is ever one team to let a struggling mob break their run step forward Thistle.  I’m still recovering from Cowdenbeath in cup many moons ago.  

Yes, their implosion under him is remarkable. Don’t know what the issue is but hopefully he doesn’t fix it on Saturday. 

[laukat]

3 hours ago, dl1971 said:

Irrespective of points and league position, we have a budget deficit. How would you fund a new manager and pay of Doolan? Anyway if we win all 3 games the picture may be a bit better. As always impossible to tell. Bottom line is the pressure on the manager is rising. 

I get the argument that replacing manager's is expensive however keeping ones that can't deliver is more expensive.

When you add that next year whoever is in charge will have presumably a smaller budget it more emphasises the need to try and get the best person in place. Arguably the time for making that decision is fast approaching as leaving it to the end of the season just limits the time a new person has to change what they think needs changed.

That being said I hope I'm wrong and it all just clicks into place and that Doolan leads us to the premier league. If he does I'll be delighted and the first to apologise for doubting.

[Third Lanark]

3 hours ago, laukat said:

I get the argument that replacing manager's is expensive however keeping ones that can't deliver is more expensive.

When you add that next year whoever is in charge will have presumably a smaller budget it more emphasises the need to try and get the best person in place. Arguably the time for making that decision is fast approaching as leaving it to the end of the season just limits the time a new person has to change what they think needs changed.

That being said I hope I'm wrong and it all just clicks into place and that Doolan leads us to the premier league. If he does I'll be delighted and the first to apologise for doubting.

With the likes of per place in the division being near the top at least £90,000 then it could be argued that progression under a new manager could be a must.

I suppose that’s a consideration for any club especially Airdrie even though they apparently gave McCabe a 3 year deal in the summer.  Though given what he achieved last season on a part time budget I can see why they gave it to him at that time as hindsight is a wonderful thing.  No idea if there was a relegation clause in it

[Jag]

20 hours ago, dl1971 said:

Is there any statistical evidence to show the team is less fit than others? I don't know either way. I seem to remember under mccalls tenure we were being told ( by fans ) we were not fit enough. Also in the season when we almost/should have went up, we were quite clearly a very fit team ( or arguably just better ), so why would that change under the same manager? I'd say it's more likely the personnel rather than the training regime. 

I don't have any statistical evidence, no. All the players wear GPS tracking vests so the club are able to monitor things like distance covered, hard running, top speed etc. It would be really interesting to see. I know what the players' training regime is like - and it's not that hard.

I actually think the opposite of you and feel the players we have are good enough ability wise. I lean towards them not being as fit as they should be and the manager not getting anywhere near the best out of them.